Ok, I know how I woudl deal withthis, but my mentor has a very different view ot me, so I wondered what everyone else thinks?

One of our pups has gone toa lovely home with very nice people. They have only had one dog before, a different breed, which they had from a pup until she passed away at age 15. They had a problem with her being nervous after about 11 weeks, but they brought her over, and other than she was very attached to humans, and hadn't been well socialised around other dogs (onyl one dogy friend, with a small breed) she was fine really and I think they were making more out of it than it was. I encouraged them to just take things steady, letting the pup set the pace, and not making a fuss when she got nervous of things, and she has improved a lot now and is almost 4 months old.

The owners emailed me today to say that the pup is being aggressive. I asked them what they meant, as I was sure it would just be boisterous play, but they say it is like a 'frenzied attack' where she growls and bites clothing etc, and has even ripped the owners trousers. It has only happened in the garden until last week, when she 'attacked' her owner on the beach, but then today she has 'attacked' the owners friend while walking, ripping her coat. They say it is impossible to walk away from her, therefore giving her a 'time out' when she does this. The husband has resorted to pinning her down once, and she just continued trying to bite.

i am going over to see her myself tomorrow, as without seeing the behaviour, it is impossible to say what it is, although I am pretty sure, pyhsical problems aside, that it is a fairly normal puppy play/dominance thing that has got out of hand. She is the centre of her owners world, everything revolves around her and she has never been left alone at all. Sire and dam are both of sound temprement, no problems like this is either of their lines, so I am convinced it is not 'true' aggression.

What do people think/what would you do in these circumstances? I am interested to hear different views on this. thanks!

Um...

Well, I doubt it's real aggression, at such a young age.

My Boo is 12 weeks and tbh, when she really gets going on a slipper or trouser leg, she can sound REALLY fearsome.... and she's only playing. She used to be worse first thing in the morning or after a nap - when she'd got loads of energy, basically.

What I did REALLY early on was teach her the  "Drop"  command, so she'd let go of trouser leg/slipper/ankle when told - she then got a treat.  That way, she has to let go before she really gets going, otherwise  she'd sound like a werewolf lol!  Now, she drops when told and either gets a treat, or a fuss, or the forbidden item substituted with a toy of her own.

.... btw, pinning her down will probably make her even more convinced that everyone is having a jolly game  :)

Without seeing the behaviour couldn't possibly comment, but i would bear in mind that puppies teeth are incredibly sharp, play fighting or nipping could lead to clothes being ripped-doesn't neccessarily make it "a frenzied attack". You say the dog is the centre of the owners world - maybe this is some of the problem. The need to treat the dog like a dog and not spoil it. Its not too late to rectify the behaviour with some decent training. I think when you go to see them you may find it is a slight over reaction but good to do something about it now before it's too late.

Puppy teeth are LETHAL - Boo caught me by accident the other day when we were playing ragger and I didn't need to do any fake whimpering a la  "The Bite Stops Here" -  I was in AGONY!!!  Two of her needles went right down the side of a fingernail and I hopped about, swearing and squeaking, for quite some time, much to her bemusement....

I can quite understand how a puppy with a mouthful of pins, getting overenthusiastic, could worry its owners...

As you say it is hard to say without seeing the behaviour. But! people do forget what a puppy is like. They do get very excitable, growl and shake things about, tug of war on trousers sounds like fun lol. But also changing the tone of your voice.when enough is enough and being leader of the pack is important. My change of tone of voice makes all my dogs stop in there tracts. It has to be started as a puppy and be constant. Some people are not constant, they let it happen today then complain tomorrow. I think it is probly normal puppy behaviour finding her place in the pack.Testing the ground!!

Denese

I'm currently looking after two puppies of a toy breed, they are 16 weeks old. They do all f this. Hang off your trousers, growl, launch themselves at you, chase after people, they ripped my daughter's jumper with their teeth etc etc -it's all puppy play. Because they're so little, nobody worries and seem to understand it is just puppy play, but I can understand that some people may misunderstand it had they been larger.

If I was a puppy I'd try to bite if I was pinned down as well, and then it might not be in play. Unless I've missed it I haven't seen this link given yet: The bite stops here. Excellent article.

No need for a behaviourist, this pup is just 4 months old, gosh, it is unbelievable how people like to put a label on anything that does not live up to their image of what a pup should be. :-(

In many breeds bitch pups are much more aggressive as puppies than dogs, the bitches that would have been in the more Alpha roles of the litter are particularly aggressive as pups IME, this is certainly absolutely nothing to do with how they will be as adults, an 'aggressive' playing pup, does not make an aggressive adult.

Search for JG's posts to find 'The Bite Stops Here' and print it off for your pups owners just for starters.

Pups fight just as this one is with other siblings, they can be extremely vicious, and ripping the owners clothing in tug and bite games is certainly not unusual along with snarling and teeth baring, I guess to anyone who has not seen a pup behave like this it looks frightening and they think they have a deranged lunatic on their hands............ they couldn't be further from the truth, the pup is doing what comes naturally, in a litter this bitch would most probably be the Alpha female asserting herself early on. All pups have different characters. 

Of course we humans are not used to this and we don't accept the role play, especially if to us it is to full on.

She will outgrow her behaviour, if she gets too full on she needs to be seperated from her owners for a few minutes to calm down.  Try to get them into training her by whistle or clicker with little games and commands, to take her mind off her own chosen canine game.

Do her owners have any doggie friends she could play with? It would help a little if she could play with her own kind too.

Above all else, try to install into them that she will calm down with age, and make sure that they get a copy of that document above. :-)

Beat me to it MarianneB

Thanks. All the new puppy owners got a printed copy of 'The Bite Stops here' in their puppy pack, as well as 'The Perfect Puppy', 'Book Of The Bitch' for bitch owners and plenty of other information and toys etc.

I am inclined to think it is innapropriate play/normal boisterous puppy behaviour. I did suggest this to them, explaining that puppies (and adult dogs!) can seem quite aggressive in their play if you're not used to it. However, they insist it is a 'frenzied attack' and not play. I am sure they are over-reacting, but I will know for sure when I see her tomorrow. She was 1 of a litter of 9, and I would say middling in her place in the litter.

My reaction would be to teach her the 'off' command (I think they might have done this using a treat, but not related it to other things) and also just walk away, leaving the room/place where pup is if possible, so pup gets a 'time out'. I don't really see how it is impossible to remove yourself from a 4 month old pup, or remove it from them. I do wonder if they had an idealised view of what having a pup would be like. I know their previous dog meant an awful lot to them, and they waited a long time to get another. So it would be easy for them to have forgotten any problems when their previous dog was a pup, and idealised itin their minds. I guess that is just human nature!

My mentors advice (she is very experienced in the breed and her methods obviously work very well for her) was to 'put the pup in it's place' by picking it up by the scruff and shaking it whilst telling it off. Whilst I don't doubt this would work, and quickly, it doesn't sit comfortably with me at all, and I feel it could cause a lot more problems than it would cure.

It's reasurring for me to hear other peoples point of view, and that they are similar to my own, as obviously I want to do what I can to help them sort this problem out. They really do care about the pup, and have bought loads of books etc, had her booked into puppy classes even before they took her home, and she doesn't want for anything. I did say that if thinsg became too much for them we would obviously stand by what we have said about having her back, and they feel this would have to be an absolute last resort for them, and not one they are considering at the moment. So hopefully, they just need a bit of guidance.

Thanks once again!

Have you thought about the NILIF http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm approach to teach him his place in a non confrontational way, some of which you are already doing.

I had a very similar problem with one of my FCR puppies just over a year ago.  It was heartbreaking, after weeks of phone calls and e mails with advice, I eventually got him back at 4 months and re homed him.  He was just a normal boisterous, happy puppy, he was actually not as loopy as the pup I kept!  The main problem with the owners (who I thought were perfect and had had the breed twice before) was they hadn't had a puppy for about 13 years, they were in their early sixties and just couldn't cope.
Here is the link to my post last year
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=789825;hl=#pid789825
Hope the link work.
Hopefully when you see the pup and presuming he is fine you will be able to reassure them the same.
Fingers crossed everything works out
Sam

If you have seen a puppy SBT play with a fluffy toy thay do look crazed! lol

I would imagine its like you guys say, just puppy play! :)

Funny enough of the homing's over the years that have gone bad for me two of the six were experienced breed owners who had not had a pup for 15 years and had rose tinted specs and were simply older than before.

Thankyou so much, and for the links! I have emailed the link you have given, Brainles, to the puppy owners, so thankyou! I di dsuggest to them some of what is in the link, like teaching her 'off' and using it for her at food times (rather than just stting, which they are already doing, but she does dive in as soon as the bowl is down!) and not allowing her to insitgate attention/play etc, so hopefully it'll back me up! Thankyou! I gues most of those thinsg are what we do without thinking abotu it, like sitting for the lead to be put on.

Anyway, having seen the pup, it is absolutely out of control play. She just has no idea what is and isn't appropriate. The first thing she did when I went in was jump up and mouth me, although she very quickly learnt it wasn' getting her anywhere and stopped, although continued with her owners. Sadly, they were doing all the usual 'no, no, get down, down..' when she was jumping up, and similar with the biting. I explained that it is best to ignore her completely until she sits down, then immediately praise her for sitting. The husband felt this was rewarding her for jumping up, so I explained that dogs think they are being rewarded for the last thing they have done, so in this case, the sitting, not jumping up. I think he believed me!

During the 'aggression' pup was biting her owner, including trousers. They had intially dealt with it by trying to walk away, then by saying 'no, down', which obviously encouraged her more. I don't thinkt he husband is 100% sure when I say it is simply play, but they aren't used to being around dogs, so don't know how rough play can get. I suggested not alking her for now, as there is no easy way of getting away from her during walks, but if she does it in the garden, to remove themselves from her, go indoors and shut pup out for 5 mins, doing the same immediately if she attempts it when they go out again. I also suggested once they start waking her again, to take a toy to distract her and point her towards more appropriate play if she tries it while out.

Thanks once again!

I did enforce how important it was to be absolutely consistent with all this, so hopefully they will be. they have no young children, (youngest is 17) so that should help!

it really is just a case of the pup not having any boundaries, or knowing what is and isn't appropriate, so hopefully things will work out. They are such lovely people, and she is already part of their family, I am glad thye have got her. They are obviously determined to sort it out.

Well, owners have emailed me this morning, and it is not looking good. Despite my suggestion of them not taking her out for walks until they had this sorted at home, they have done so. The first walk she tried to 'attack' them. (It is playing!) and they ignored it, so she stopped, but obviously the pup has become more determined, so they have resorted to shouting 'off' at her, and even smacked her, as ignoring is obviously taking longer to work as pup got away with it before. So things are just as bad.

I have again suggested she not walk the pup until this is sorted, or stick to short, pavement lead walks where it doesn't happen, explaining that she will be fine with this and time in their large garden for the time being. I have also suggested sticking consistently to one way of dealing with it. (preferably ignoring!)

It's so awful knowing it is not a problem with the pup, but them. They do have the best intentions, but really just aren't getting it. I have suggested she speak to the woman at the training class tonight, which might help, I suppose. I have a copy of 'Puppy School' (Gwen Bailey) which I may drop of to them as an extra pointer. I want to help, but not interfere.

Part of me just wishes they'd give the pup back, as that would be an immediate end to her problems, and obviously the older she gets, and the longer she gets away with this behaviour, the worse it will be, and more difficult to put a stop to. I think this has got to be the hardest part of breeding for me.

What an awful situation you are in.
This may seem like a silly thing to say but are you sure they want the dog? We all know what puppys are like. It almost seems like they are making excuses and in a way they want you to offer to take it back. As you've said, it is only going to get worse not better, but if niopped in the bud now could prevent a lot of problems later down the line.

The puppy is showing classic 'extinction burst behaviour' as they are not reacting as they once did the pup tries even harder doing what it did, as surely it will then work.

That's exactly what is happening Brainless. I have emailed them the link to the NILIF article, and she says she has read it and printed it, so hopefully they will pick up on this.

I have already said that if it gets too much, we'd obviously take the puppy back and offer them their money back. They have discussed it, but have said it would really be the very last option for them. I do think they maybe had an idealised view of what having a puppy would be like. It is a second marriage with older children, and Mum is a home-maker at home all day on her own, so the pup was primarily for her. the pup has every single thing money can buy, and I think is their 'baby'.

They really do have the best intentions at heart, and are so lovely. The poor lady said she was in tears when she felt she had to resort to hitting the pup. I just don't think they have the ability to sort out what for me, would be an easily cured 'problem'

They were worried if she came here, she might 'attack' my children. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I would say try to get her back now.  I had the same (not same behaviour) with the people who had Jozi, they were not coping at 5 months but wanted to give it longer and things didn't improve as they didn't/couldn't change their handling, and I had her back at 8 1/2 months, as a very OTT adolescent.  Would have been much easier to deal with at five months.

I think I'm with Brainless here. If they can't cope with a pup, how will they cope with the Kevin stage later on?

Thanks. That is my gut feeling, to be honest, but how on earth can I go about it? I really do feel for them. I do wonder if maybe if they let me have her ot stay for a few days, it would almost be a relief for them, which might lead to them giving her back, as the behaviour is obviously getting more frequent, as it is rewarding for her.

It might be worth getting her back for a fortnight to 'retrain' that would give them some distance and they might be prepared to give her up.  either way at least you may crack the behaviour thing in that time.

I would try to persuade them to let you have her back.
In my experience once they 'lose faith' in their pup it will be one thing after another.
Make any excuse you can ( in desperation I've even said that it was going to get worse so I should collect it asap), retrain her and then find another good home preferably with experience of naughty puppies. Offered a full refund early on - many people would let you have her back.
I hope you get a good outcome on this one. Good luck

I really feel for you, as you know I went through the same situation a year ago.  It was total relief when I got the pup back as I knew in my heart I would get him back at some stage.  It was obviously easier to find a good home for a 4 month old pup than an older dog, with more bad habits.
I hope everything works out.  I haven't got much advice apart from if you don't get the puppy back, by 6 months usually the bitey stage has stopped.  Although the pup I kept, still mouths me when we play!

Thanks all!

I feel a bit better this afternoon, as the owner has emailed me back again. She has read the 'NILIF' article 3 times, and feels it makes perfect sense. So, this afternoon she has left the room whenever the puppy has 'started', which is a good start. She even went out for an hour and left the pup at home too, which she never usually does. She sounds much more positive, and knows I am here if she needs me for anything. She is bearing my offer to have pup to stay in mind, but feels she would really rather get on top of it herself, which is obviously the best way to go if it is at all possible.

We are 'booked' to have the pup to stay in April, when they go away for a few days, and are meeting up for a walk with Mum next week. Hopefully by then, things will be a lot better, and if not, at least I will be able to cope with pup and give direction.

They really do love her, and are at least committed to trying to sort things out. I'm glad they can talk to me, I don't want to do anything that might make them think I am interfering and therefore not be in touch so much.

Thanks once again, I will keep you all updated.