Hi all,

Why is it that the kennel club allow you to show a neutered dog but they are marked down for it in the showring?
When we had to neutered my dog i got premission from the kennel club yet i am still not placed or last placed (only with a breed judge does this happen).
The 1st show i entered him in he got BOB. 2ND he got 2nd and won AVWorking at cambley in November.
Anwers on a postcard as the saing goes.

I suppose it depends on the judge alot.............the breed standard does state that all tackle should be there ;-) but then I suppose some people show for the fun and social aspect, not for the glory

The trouble is that all breed standards call for dogs to be entire, so a castrated one has an obvious and inescapable fault, which will be judged alongside the faults that the other entrants have, and what the judge considers the most severe departure from the standard.

Why couldn't I put it like that JG :-D

yes i do show for fun (Doesn't everyone?)and because both my boys love it. They enjoy meeting there doggie and human pals as well as the petting from the judges.
Surley the kc should not allow neutered dogs (and Bitches) to be shown in that case.
But i do know of people who show there girls without informing the of there spaying.

Once when I was stewarding at an open show the judge placed a neutered dog 2nd of 3, above an entire one, so it can happen, but it's pretty rare. Mind you my neutered Yankee won a companion dog class last September, I imagine a large proportion of dogs in those classes are neutered though and the judge would be daft to discriminate!

>Surley the kc should not allow neutered dogs (and Bitches) to be shown in that case.

Neutered animals have always been allowed to be shown; the difference is that nowadays they don't have to have produced registered offspring before being neutered.

There is nothing to say that a dog needs four legs to be shown, but a three-legged dog is unlikely to do well!

I show my one ball dog at companion shows and he does really well, almost always gets placed, usually wins his class and has a couple of BIS / RBIS.  Its so tempting to stick him in an open show to see what would happen !

I bred a dog like that ClaireyS, unfortunately, and his owner did take him to open shows and even a couple of champ.shows. Placed last each and every time without exception -and it looks bad when it is mentioned in critiques in the dog papers. (In my breed classes are so small often all dogs get placed.)

IMO it's just another fault in the breed standard - different judges have different values in their minds held again specific faults. 

Much also depends on how (if at all) judges view a vet form/letter notifying whether the castrated dog was originally entire which if available should be presented to the steward on entering the class so that due notification can be passed to the judge before s/he examines the dog.  This may well make no difference to a large number of judges but OTOH could be considered sufficient evidence for the judge to go on to assess the dog in a totally non-prejudicial fashion :)

If when judging my best dog was castrated and he was clearly of better breed type than his competition then he'd top the class!

regards, Teri

Within my breed I known of a neutered dog who was neutered very early and yet he has done extremely well in the ring. He is a very nice dog and alot of judges think highly of him. He has his stud book number too which in labs can be difficult to get anyhow.

Why shouldn't people get to show their dogs if there is a reason for neutering. For bitches I do not agree that the KC letter of authorisation should be shown before judging. It should only be produced if someone questions the fact it has been spayed in my opinion.

Marianne, thats my only issue, if on the judges write up it gets mentioned that there was a dog in the class with only one !!  Our breed has large entries so I doubt he would get placed, its also the fact that loads of people know the reason I dont show him so im sure there would be a few nudges and whispers about it. 

I'm afraid I'm a bit 'old school' when it comes to judging.  I believe that showing allows people to show off their stock and get an independant view on how the dog compares to others and to it's breed standard.  There will always be breeding in the back of any serious exhibitor's and judge's mind so it would have to be a very poor class and an outstanding neutered dog for me to put it up. 

I realise that things have changed and that now a lot of people see showing purely as a hobby - which, don't get me wrong, is a good thing!  So people should be able to, and indeed can, show what they like.  But they'd have to do it purely for the fun of it and it would be, IMO,  a total waste of money to campaign a castrated male (as opposed to showing it at the odd show here and there).

It's hypocritical of me to say all this really as I'm currently showing a spayed bitch!  But the standard says nothing about bitches being entire as it does with males and the standard is what I, as a judge, HAVE to adhere to.

Debs 

I think there is a difference though with showing a dog that was entire and is neutered and showing a monorchid dog which is a serious fault.

In my own breed Veteran males are sometimes castrated due to health reasons or just to make life easier in the home that may have several entire males.  These are usually males who have had a long show career as entires so their lack of tackle later seems not to affect their placing.

What an exhibitor also needs to remember is that if the dog was castrated before full physical maturity (perhaps 3 years of age), it may never have developed it's full male sexual characteristics and therefore already compare less well with it's entire brethren.

With bitches it is rather irrelevant as most will have already produced offspring, so under the previous rules notifying the KC wasn't necessary, and many people don't report it as they think the appendage Neut looks farcical in pedigrees issued by the KC, after all how did a neut produce offspring.

The only time a bitch entirety might be questioned would be with coat texture, but the judge would simply penalise the coat texture regardless of the reason for it.

The only advantage a spayed bitch really has is she is able to be shown as often as the males.

The kenenl club has alwasy been more leninet than most Kennel clubs as has always allowed neuters to be shown(but previously they had to ahve offspring prior to neutering), other countries neutered animals can't be wshown at all.

An Austrailian Champion bitch I bred had to be spayed last year and can no longer be shown.  They ar now doing tracking with her instead.

>There will always be breeding in the back of any serious exhibitor's and judge's mind

Of course - and the more of a particular dog and bitch's progeny that are seen gives a clearer picture of what they can produce - the neutered offspring are an advertisement for the parents, and their bloodlines as a whole. Always remembering that many of the dogs and bitches in the ring will never be bred from, despite being entire! ;-)

>it would be, IMO,  a total waste of money to campaign a castrated male (as opposed to showing it at the odd show here and there).

Totally agree. :-)

I totally agree with you JG, all shown stock are advertisements for the kennel they came from. For serious breeders it is a bonus to see plenty of a kennels stock in the rings when choosing breeding partners for our own stock, whether they be spayed neutered or entire we can still See the quality, or lack of it, and use this information in our breeding programs. Lots (If not most) good breeders now endorse their puppies and many of the "Pet" homes try a bit of showing for fun, why should they be penalized for being careful and avoiding unwanted litters...we as the breeders of the pup are happy to see them being so conscientious.
Anyone can show a spayed bitch with no one the wiser!! so give the boys the same chances and if a note from a vet explaining that their "Tackle" was A OK to start is presented, then IMO they should be able to represent their breeders kennels the same as the entire dogs and not be penalized for it.
Aileen.

I've never understood why dogs can't have neuter classes like cats do, totally separate to the entires and with their own titles.

Ditto Merlot & JG :)

I do think it nonsensical that the KC, having included the fact that neuters can be shown, have not addressed the clause that virtually excludes every neutered male and while perhaps not wishing to change each and every breed standard it could IMO either provide a separate class for neutered animals or make clearer just exactly what they expect judges to do when assessing a castrate.

I don't personally believe that a quality animal which originally had two t#stes should be penalised if written evidence is provided to the effect that same were removed on sound medical or good management grounds :)

Equally, with the wide use of the internet and PP schemes, it is not necessary for dedicated breeders to assess their breeding programmes solely on the basis of what they see at championship shows.  I can think of several stunning examples in a number of breeds where either of the parents was never shown and when looking for a suitable stud dog I would not wish to limit myself to those which happen to be owned by people who can afford or are sufficiently interested in campaigning an animal when something in the ring may well have some of the attributes I was seeking and have a suitable pedigree but may have a significantly better matched litter mate occupying the heart and hearth of a pet only owner :)

Oh yes, I don't seriously campaign my neutered Yankee, he only goes along to the odd companion show. Every so often I used to think 'his coat's not really too bad', enter him at an open show, then realise that yes it was, when he stood next to the 'real' show Yankees! But he's got a lot more coat than most pet cockers so we have fun at the fun shows. My Cavaliers are the ones I seriously show. :-)

I'm afraid I'm a bit 'old school' when it comes to judging.

Ditto

These days however, many people are just showing their much loved pets with little thought beyond the next rosette. It's usually only when they do some winning or totally bomb that they think of creating a replacement. As SOLI says " now a lot of people see showing purely as a hobby - which, don't get me wrong, is a good thing!" and I agree but
find it difficult to see why people are awarded Stud Book Numbers with neuters that have never produced.

> find it difficult to see why people are awarded Stud Book Numbers with neuters that have never produced

this is very true, its all in the name isnt it !!  I wonder if its a case of 3rd out of 3 or suchlike.  Judges should with hold the placing.

Unlikely, 3rd only gets you a stud book number in the really strong breeds with lots of entries.

Yes i do have a letter from the vet and one from the kennel club which we do show the judge when asked to.
My boy was castrated at 3 1/2 years old so had stopped growing (thank god) due to a tumor on one of his balls so i had no choice if i wanted him to live. When faced with this chioce there was only one answer and as i am not a breeder i did not intead to stud him the desision was easy.
We do only show at open shows but we dont go every weekend just a couple of times.
He has beaten other dogs for bob and best av working (which does not send you though to group which is probley why he won).
Evan the people i show with who have made up champs have told me he is a great looking dog its just a shame that some judges put balls above health!!!
Maybe some day the govenment will change the law like they did with the rotties and dobe tails and we can all live happly ever after!!!!!!!!!

its just a shame that some judges put balls above health!!!

That's not the case at all!  I'm a judge and I show a bitch that had to be spayed due to medical reasons.  Never would I have not had her spayed just to carry on showing her if the rules stated that spayed bitches could not be shown!  Judges do not put being entire before the health of the dog!  Had it been a male that needed castrating due to medical reasons I would have had the operation done without a second thought.  However, there are many more things I could do with that neutered dog instead of showing him.  Maybe you could try one of them :)

Debs

Evan the people i show with who have made up champs have told me he is a great looking dog its just a shame that some judges put balls above health!!!

A word to the wise, there are a great deal of people at dog shows whos real hobby is waiting for beaten dogs to leave the ring then convince their owner that " they were robbed". It crops up regularily on this forum that 'their friend told them the judge was bent'. Like many others I fell for it many years ago and was tempted to join the whingers, in time one sees the bigger picture.You've said that you're new to showing - Try not to get sucked into their negativity, you will enjoy your hobby much more.
These 'experts' are seldom inside the ring judging. If and when they are, give them the chance to put their money where their mouth is.

First of all i am sorry if i have upset anyone with my comments its just they way i feel, as we live in a country of free speech we should learn to resept the views of others.

Also yes in it may the case that some people do wait for the good dogs to leave the ring etc but i was told this even before i thought of showing my boy so its not the case here.

I do other things with both my boys, we also do carting and water work (tests) aswell as acting as pat dog to many.

He has also passed his good cit sliver and we are working towards gold.

Once again sorry to have upset everone that was not my intention.

wait for the good dogs to leave the ring

I didn't say that-  the good dogs are more often than not in the ring getting their prizes.

tooolz

sorry to have misquoted you but you get my point ( i hope)

It takes a great deal to upset me and........ very little about dog showing upsets me any more.
      May I ask? Did you buy your boy as a show prospect?

yes they were both brought for showing.

But first and formost they are my pets and i love them both no matter what they do in the ring.
We only show for fun and because they seem to love it as they are both real show offs!!!
Yes its great when they win but i only started this topic so i could get others views on what seems to be a sore subject for most people here.

what seems to be a sore subject for most people here.

Not in the slightest bit sore for me I can assure you. Those days are long gone. Just want to give you a little help.
Don't you think that most people who have shown dogs for many years, started off feeling hard done by? Ask them - they will probably tell you stories of their 'little swans'.
Close friends of mine bred their first Dalmatian litter and proudly took their little bitch to several Championship shows. Although placed at some; a certain bitch won almost every time and invariably beat theirs. No amount of persuading them that perhaps this winning girl may be something special , would convince them that theirs was not being hard done by. On they went, fuelled up the the 'whingers' moaning loudly about 'fixing' until they found that one true honest judge who could see that theirs was better than ( the by now multi CC winning ) bitch..... then they were satisfied that it was all afix.The other bitch went onto be bitch breed record holder and top dog ( I think) in the country.

I think you will find that most of the dogs owned by folk on this forum are, first and foremost, their pets .Including mine.

I don't know Marianne, even in my breed of usually 250 at a Champ show, I have been in some pretty small classes, including an Open Dog class of 3 dogs, so we all would have got Stud Book numbers (though 2 of us already had them from better wins). :-)

Thanks to all those who replyed to my question and for the advise which i will bear in mind next time i go to a show.
Good luck to all those with shows this weekend.