My Estrela Mountain Dog has come into season for the first time (she is 11 months old).  I noticed her getting attention from male dogs on Wednesday and today saw the first drops of blood.  She is very swollen and cleaning herself manically.

Tomorrow is dog training and I called the trainer to check it was OK to go.  She said NO NO NO definitely not, there's entire males in the class, you'll have to have three weeks off.  I was a bit surprised but said OK fine.

Then she said I shouldn't even walk her on a lead, especially around the 13th day because she will be very keen to mate.  So far I have been walking her on a long line.  The trainer said to be on the safe side I shouldn't take her out AT ALL for the next three weeks.  She said I certainly shouldn't walk her out of my front door as it will leave a trail of highly-scented blood and all the neighbourhood dogs will be at our door!

Our garden is small and she loves her walks and I feel really sorry for her being cooped up for 3 weeks!  Is this really necessary?  She weighs 7.5 stones and has already pulled me over three times, so I realise that if instinct takes over things might get messy.

I'd value your opinion on this as I have never had a bitch in season before (all my previous bitches were spayed before I got them - rescues).  Thanks in advance.

I walk mine in season but then I'm lucky as I have forests where you are lucky to meet another person.   I would walk her but just make your dog walking hours anti-social and I would actually wait another week after she has finished her season to take her back to dog training.   She will still smell divine to some of the entire males.

I agree to own an entire bitch you have to be responsible and we walk ours at very unsociable hours or put them in the van to the middle of nowhere, i'd also bath her before she goes back to dog training :-) or give her a good wipe over.. It would be absolutely pointless in taking her to dog training within the next 3 weeks as you are wasting the other peoples time and money as their entire dogs wont concentrate..

I always take my girl out in season too, although in the countryside I know that an entire dog can catch her scent from quite a distance away so you must always be extremely vigilant, I usually change my walking times to very early morning approx 6am and then an afternoon walk, I would completely cut out an evening walk as being dark (especially now) you may not see a male dog approaching, her scent will be left throughout her walks to drive any entire males crazy so make sure you keep her safe.

And also remember it is not up to those with entire dogs to keep them on lead during their walks, it is entirely the bitch owners responsibility to protect her bitch, I've seen bitch owners cussing away at entire dogs approaching theirs when really it is not the dogs fault at all.

It is unlikely being her first season that she will try to escape from you at her peak time as a first season is generally a mystery to a bitch and she is likely to be more worried than searching for a mate, (there is always the exception though ;-) ) but she may well do this the next season, just make sure she is on lead to avoid any uncomfortable situations.

The trainining class is a definite No, No, she will upset the whole class and probably the ones after it too, so your trainer is completely right with regards to that. :-) I also agree with ChristimeW in perhaps waiting another week to make sure all scent is gone and give her a good wash too. ;-)

You know your area better than I or anyone else, so if you know you have lots of entire dogs about it would be safer to play ball in the garden and just do the 6am walk. Otherwise just be vigilant.

Sorry to repeat previous posters advice, I take so long with my essays that y'all beat me to it. :-D

I never take mine out during being in season, to me the risk is to high and it's never done my dogs any harm.  Even the ones that I work and whose brain is on the go all the time.  Three weeks isn't a great hardship to them.

Sorry that's me and I know a lot of people are different.

NEVER EVER LET HER OFF LEAD THOUGH, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S AROUND THE CORNER!

My bitch is hardly the most energetic dog in the world, and she's not that bright either!

She still only gets one walk of 55 minutes per day because of her hips - and the fun part is all offlead.  In some ways I think it's worse to take her out and not let her off than it is to not take her at all.

I honestly can't think of anywhere I could take her that there won't be other dogs around.  Maybe the woods at 6am.  But I'm not sure *I* would be safe either!

I didn't realise the instinct was so strong, they don't mention that in the puppy books!  This will be her only season - I am planning to have her spayed 3 months after.  Thanks for the advice about bathing her - good idea and not one that would've occurred to me.

we don't take out our bitches during it either, asking for trouble in a farm (and thus dog filled) area. we tend to find their not exactly in the mood for it anyway, both of ours get PMT and i assume cramps, they look pretty miserable through it, I always want to give them rubbish to eat and a soppy film to watch, poor girlies.

I would still walk her,my dogs couldnt go one day without a walk,lettalone 3 weeks You just have to have your guard up a bit more is all.
It's not her fault that she's in season and shouldnt be punished for it,by keeping her confined for nearly a month :(

We don't walk any bitch in season, from day one. We had one of our dogs clear a 7ft fence several times to get after an in season bitch that was being walked through our village and regulary passed our house. The owners of the bitch caused a hell of a row and tried to insist I chain the dog up! I shan't say what I said.
And then a few years later we found a stray dog in our garden, who was after the next door neighbours bitch. She'd been walked through the village too and our stupid neighbour, although a friend, thought it was funny. Well it wasn't so funny for the dog, he ended up in clink, poor thing.
Rant over thanks.

I suggest if you do take her out, take a squeezy bottle with you, a big stick and bad intentions, because if there is a good big dog out there with all his equipment tested and ready to go, you won't stand a chance with shooo,shoooo. ;)

Hi, my first post so bare with me.
My young bitch has just come into her first season too. It is now her 8th day. I have been walking her to a field about 20 minutes away where it is quite deserted. The only dogs we see are along to the way to the field and they are on leads. I have been letting her off once we get to the field, but now it is getting close to the 10 - 13 day mark I will keep her on a lead.  Also usually on sundays we talk all our dogs up to the country park which is highly dog populated, so during the whole of her season we will not take her up there.
I did the same with my other bitch I had and never had any problems.

Quoting Ktee:
I would still walk her,my dogs couldnt go one day without a walk,lettalone 3 weeks eek You just have to have your guard up a bit more is all.
It's not her fault that she's in season and shouldnt be punished for it,by keeping her confined for nearly a month :-(

And exactly HOW would most people do this? Many, many areas have free roaming dogs, certainly both the places I lived in before now did, owners just let the dogs out to roam, so say you walk an in season bitch on a lead and an unattended entire male dog turns up, your bitch happily stands for him, he's too big for you to push or pull off, you only have two hands so can't get both dogs away from each other (and the bitch is of a breed much too large to be picked up), and maybe the male dog even growls at you? Then how would you stop a mating??

Whether a bitch in season is walked or not would depend ENTIRELY on the individual circumstances of how and where the owner lives, and to say to everyone that it is "punishment" to not walk a bitch in season would be equal to arranging quite a few unplanned litters.........

Have always walked my bitches when in season. Never had a dog come near or try to follow me home, but there again we don't have any free roaming dogs. However, I would never dream of taking any of them to a training class as that would be very unfair on the males in the class as they wouldn't be able to concentrate on their owners commands. You can tell at a class when a bitch is just due to come in because you will get some dogs that just have their minds on other things because they can smell that a bitch is coming in.

I walk my bitch when she is in season, including off lead, but I do avoid places where I know other dogs will be, and am lucky in that the farm where I keep my horses is private, with no entire dogs around. She has an exceptional recall, and she is not interested in dogs of any sort when in season, so would not stand for one. (that is on the off chance I were to meet one, which I never have)

I do think it depends on your circumstances, but keeping a bitch in for 3 weeks would be a last resort for me.

I have been bitten by a dog when I had been out walking with two of my in season bitches right outside of my house. I got a lead of one of my bitches and tried to get it round his neck and he turned on me :(

I learnt the hard way and since then have always taken my bitches when in season out in the car to remote places where you rarely see any other dog walkers :)

We walked our bitch while in season but only road walking (on lead but I wouldn't walk off lead near the road anyway) and early or late when there were few other dogs around.  If we did see other dogs coming they were given a wide berth.

Where we live it is very rare to see a dog off lead on the road so I thought it was worth the risk given that she was on lead at times when we wouldn't normally expect to see other dogs.

Hear hear!

I own both an entire female and an entire male, so hopefully can see both sides.  They are both GSPs - so high energy.

For the first 9 days my bitch only seemed to want to curl up and snooze by the fire, playing the occasional game in the garden, so no problem.  In the subsequent week she became more active......I then hired an indoor riding school at a farm where there are no dogs and let her romp in there.  Not ideal, but at least she was able to burn off some energy.  The rest of the time I exercised her mind with clicker free-shaping and borrowed a friends bitch as company for her to play with.   Yes, it was a pain; there is no way I could lead walk her in my village as we have a number of latch-key dogs - including an entire male rhodesian ridgeback of all things.

Now with my entire male owners hat on..........in-season bitches (my own included!) out walking (loose or on leash) are a pain.  My male knows immediately if an in-season bitch has been along a footpath in the countryside or around the park.  If it is an oldish scent he will smack his lips and lick the ground, so as long as I am observant I get some warning.  I can then decide whether to go home, leash him and continue or risk keeping him loose on a 'close' command.  If it is a new scent, I get no warning - he will lift his head, air scent (the same as for a pheasant or other game) and bog off.  The fear is that he will run across a road and get killed or get into some other trouble in pursuit of the in-season bitch.  He can and has scented an in-season bitch from nearly a mile away.  He is a scent hound and scenting is what he is bred to do.  Please bear this in mind when you walk your in-season bitch - even in areas that you think are safe and not frequented by other dog walkers. 

Another story to show the effect and consequences of walking an in-season bitch:  I nearly ran over a male flat coat a few weeks back..........someone in the village I was aware of was walking their in-season westie around.  Unfortunately they walked it along the boundary wall of a garden that housed said flat coat..........it was a good 6foot high but he was over it and bounced off the bonnet of my car.   He is four years old and had never escaped before, but the scent was enough to drive him..........even though the westie had (allegedly) passed by over 30 mins previously, as soon as he was let out into the garden, he got the scent and was out over the wall.

The above observations are just some food for thouht........I don't know what the answer is to satisfy everyone, but please be aware of the dangers that you could be putting someone else's male dog in by walking an in-season bitch in public where dogs are allowed loose, even if you think that they are not frequented by other dog walkers.  A good scent hound will get the scent if the wind is in the right direction and be off.  Recall and stop whistles don't come into the equation in such circumstances, believe you me.

i always road walk as all other dogs should be on leads

Bhodi - what would you do if your girl was off lead in the field and one of the dogs you met on the way slipped his lead and followed you?

Jackson - whether your bitch would willingly stand makes no difference to the dog. You could end up with a litter from a traumatised raped bitch and or both dog and bitch hurt.

hello lisa! i think that sounds like a sensible approach to honest if your bitch is still wanting out. we don't take ours out as i said because for the first week or so they don't seem to want to move and after that they turn into little tarts (drive our poor boy mad). i also know to many folk who have had unexpected pups due to walkies at that time... a friend of mine has a springer (male) who has now probably fathered several litters from stupid people that let their in season bitch run about populated areas off lead. one of them was going to sue him, i told him its the bitches owners responsibility and Toby was doing what males do. To the op, its a risk but if you need to take it (as a stir crazy dog is not a good thing) just be careful, and yep, big stick and a water bottle.

I would pick her up and and look to see if their dog was entire. If he was I'd walk over to the owner and ask him/her if he could put his dog back on his lead.

"Now with my entire male owners hat on..........in-season bitches (my own included!) out walking (loose or on leash) are a pain.  My male knows immediately if an in-season bitch has been along a footpath in the countryside or around the park.  If it is an oldish scent he will smack his lips and lick the ground, so as long as I am observant I get some warning.  I can then decide whether to go home, leash him and continue or risk keeping him loose on a 'close' command.  If it is a new scent, I get no warning - he will lift his head, air scent (the same as for a pheasant or other game) and bog off.  The fear is that he will run across a road and get killed or get into some other trouble in pursuit of the in-season bitch.  He can and has scented an in-season bitch from nearly a mile away.  He is a scent hound and scenting is what he is bred to do.  Please bear this in mind when you walk your in-season bitch - even in areas that you think are safe and not frequented by other dog walkers."

your so right, or any dog. i found a stray staffie a couple of months ago, no coller on but a lovely dog, well trained, great condition etc (would have liked to keep him, damn morals). he had a small cut on his head that looked like a scratch from something like a fence. entire male so one thought i had was that he might have gone after a bitch (owners had called the kennel by the time i called them with him so obviously a loved boy)

In Response to Bodhi

>I would pick her up and and look to see if their dog was entire. If he was I'd walk over to the owner and ask him/her if he could put his dog back on his lead.

As the current owner of entire males and a previous owner of entire females I can assure you it isn't that easy! ;-) Picking up a dog is guaranteed to get another dog jumping up to see it, even if it isn't in season, and, with your bitch in your arms (assuming she's small enough to be picked up anyway), how would you check a Newfoundland (for example) for entirety without getting the bitch down to the dog's level?

Exactly, JG, and if the bitch is off lead, as many of us know there is not the time to saunter over to check if the dog is entire - the deed is done so quickly! Not to mention the trauma inflicted on the poor bitch.

Just a pondering really.

I have horses. Spaying mares is virtually never practiced, but in this country males are routinely castrated unless they are to be used at stud, as people feel entire males are a liability and cannot behave around in season mares. If people keep entire males, they are responsible for controlling them and keeping them away from any mares, despite the fact that if a stallion 'got' a mare, it would only be doing what came naturally. (the same as dogs). It is their responsibility to have higher than average fencing to ensure no escapes happen, and that their horses are kept under proper control at all times.

On the continent, male horses are routinely kept entire, whether they will be used at stud or not. They are expected to behave well at all times, and compete/travel/be shown around mares who may well be in season. Even 'covering' stallions do this (ones used at stud) and although they know what it is all about, are still expected to behave and compete when not being used to cover mares, without attempting to mount them etc.

I have to admit, I am only experienced in entire bitches, not dogs, but I do know when I have taken my girl to stud, the stud dog owner has complete control over her very experienced and enthusiatic stud dog, and when he was introduced to my girl he still came back in an instant when called, and continued to do as asked throughout the mating. (maiden bitch, sonot co-operative!)

As I say, it is just a pondering, I am not saying it should be the same with dogs, but why shouldn't it be?

I live in the suberbs of a large City and do not walk my bitches when in season it does them no harm for a few weeks, we luckily have a very large garden with lots of space for them to run but I do not leave them in the garden without supervision , I have seen the foxes jump the fences so dont think it would be difficult for male dogs to do the same , I really dont want to risk my girls  being chased by male dogs and have them sitting outside my home.

On the other hand I think if I lived in a rural area with open spaces I would consider walking them on a lead, so really it depends on your circumstances.

In reply to JG,
No it wouldn't be easy, but she is small enough to pick up (9kg).  She is very responsive and her recall is good  and she doesn't wander far. As I said in my first post the field I go to is deserted. I never see any other dogs, except for the three I see when I walk down there which I now know and are on leads and under control. If I saw any other dogs, entire on otherwise I would not take her out as it's the quietest place round here.

I see your point about checking a newfie's entirety. But I have worked in rescue/boarding and breeding kennels and if I couldn't visually see, some signs would be there, body language etc.
This will be my bitch's only season as she will be spayed in 3 months time. Thank god I only have another 2 weeks to worry about

Quoting Jackson:
As I say, it is just a pondering, I am not saying it should be the same with dogs, but why shouldn't it be?

One reason being that dogs and horses do not work the same. A cat and a horse will show much the same effects when a male is castrated, in a male dog it will NOT have the same effect. I.e. a castrated male dog may still mate and tie, for instance. It also does not have the same effect on aggression as it does in cats and horses. In other words, there are far LESS reasons to castrate a male dog that a male horse or male cat -and just to stop unwanted matings should not need to be a reason if the owner is responsible.

Quoting Bodhi:
I see your point about checking a newfie's entirety. But I have worked in rescue/boarding and breeding kennels and if I couldn't visually see, some signs would be there, body language etc.

What about those neutered male dogs that don't know they are neutered and still mate and tie? They still act the same as if entire in every way. I would therefore not say you could really tell by body language. Certainly my neutered males do still mate (all but one -I have 4 neutered males and 2 entire ones), and one of them always ties as well.

Also just checking for a lack of testicles in a short coated dog may not be enough -what if he was neutered just a week or two ago? He'd still be fertile.

She is very responsive and her recall is good  .

As is my dog but I could never guarantee that if he came across a bitch in season :(  I try to never forget that instinct can overcome even the best of training - he is, after all, a dog :)

neuterings not the only option either, my aunties former stud is now vesectomised (sp, please forgive me). my mum is considering the same for our boy (she doesn't like the look of them incomplete and doesn;t want to risk a personality change). my aunties (brilliant) vet is happy to do it on the bullies (big enough for the fiddlier surgery). in this case they look and behave whole but fire out blanks :)

My two entire boys are small, small enough to pick up if the need arose, but as friends I have with entire bitches will tell you, they are sex maniacs. Only once have they come across an in season springer bitch, off lead, out on their walks and they changed from attempting their usual 'hello, can I hump you?' tactics, to completely deranged, hyper-panting lunatics who were going to get that lady no matter what! I dare say if they'd been huge dogs I wouldn't have stood a chance of dragging them away! They remained in a total state for the rest of the day!

I visited a friend not long ago (without the dogs), who had a bitch coming into season. When I got home, across the sea and shopping on the way back, the boys fell desperately in love with my shoes I'd been wearing, cue the same crazed state. Tis a strong strong scent!

>my dogs couldnt go one day without a walk,lettalone 3 weeks

Ktee, I've seen you say this a few times. How would you cope if one of your dogs couldn't go out for some reason? My very energetic Dobermann who is used to 2 long walks a day totalling 3 hours has a torn cruciate ligament. We've seen a specialist and as my dog improves within just 4 or 5 days of being rested (this has been going on and off for a few months) without needing medication we have opted to go for rest and restriction instead of surgery at this time.

I've been advised that in order to give the knee a chance to restabilise with scar tissue I need to rest him for the first couple of months then very slowly build him up, totalling 6 months on the lead only (garden included, and I've also had to start keeping him on lead in the house as he will dash to the door when the postman/newspaper etc comes or to the windows if he thinks he hears/sees something). We've only done 2 weeks so far and he seems as right as rain so much to the point where you would not be able to detect anything is wrong with him watching his movement (but I made the mistake before of thinking "well he looks ok!" and let him off after 10 weeks on lead and ended up back at square one within a week). I guess my point is that 3 weeks is nothing compared to the time out that can occur with injury. Just 3 weeks would be a dream to me

Likewise zarah, my Ripley (a dog I have NEVER been able to tire out in her life) injured herself about ten days ago. It was quite serious, she needed surgery, but it is her leg, so she feels well in herself. It's vital that she rests as much as possible, the injury is in the joint so could so easily get torn again. I've found it not to be a problem. She's quite happy to be near me all the time, doing nothing, and although I'm sure she'd love nothing more than go for a long run instead of now having literally 30 second toilet breaks in the front garden, she's coping. Of course, she's been used to all her life to not be able to go for walks when in season.

It's important that dogs are taught to relax as well. You can of course over exercise/over stimulate a dog, so that it becomes a stressed dog that cannot cope without doing a lot daily. I have seen many such dogs, they can't even relax indoors, and follow the owners around, never stay still etc. It's not natural and not nice for anyone. Indeed I have one such dog, although he is getting better -he was returned to me and had been in a very active home, which was fine when he was in his previous home. Here he CANNOT be AS active as I have more dogs to see to, and even months later he will hardly ever lay down to relax when my other dogs do, but he is learning and is settling.

I hope your dog will recover well zarah -thankfully mine is, despite the odds -vet thought there was a risk she'd never be able to walk normally ever again.

Thanks Marianne. I hope the next 6 months will be worth the effort and we can avoid the surgery. I only have the one dog so I think I'm missing the walks as much as him (can't bring myself to do them without him!). I hope your Ripley recovers well too :-)

> In Response to alicey

Certainly walk her on lead where dogs are not allowed off lead, so basically pavement pounding.  I am assuming here that you do not have lots of loose dogs roaming the streets where you live.

It would be totally unfair to male dog owners to walk anywhere you might come across off lead dogs, as of course they would have no way of knowing there was an in season bitch about, and be in no position to effectively control their off lead dog.

In response to harley:

But chasing rabbits or deer is instinct, but dogs can still be trained to stop chasing them and come back when called. Why should calling a dog back from an in season bitch be different? As I said above, when I toook my girl to stud, and obviously that was at the stud dog owners house, so a situation in which he knew what his job was, and therfore likely to be less uncontrollable, the owner had total control over him, being able to call him away from my bitch during their initial meeting.

As for entire dog owners not knowing if there is an in season bitch about, surely people should not allow their dogs (whatever the circumstances) to go over to others without seeking the owners permission first anyway? This is especially if the other dog is on a lead. We have abig problem with poor dog walking ettiquette and training, in my opinion.

Also, surely it is the entire dog owners responsibility to accept that there will be entire bitches about and whatever they need to to keep their dogs contained and under control, just liek it is with any other dog. Having an entire dog or bitch brings with it added responsibility, just like having a breed such as a husky that is likely to escape an inadequetly fenced garden does.

There is an entire male chocolate lab who is walked where I walk my girl when she is NOT in season. He has taken a liking to her, and frequently comes over to 'pester' her, even if I have kept her on her lead. His owner never calls him back, and is not hurried in any way in taking him away. My girl hates him, and although she is an extremely good natured and tolerant girl, ther eis only so much she iwll put up with, which means she has growled and snapped at him several times. It is never more than a severe warning, but I can guarantee if she were to bite him then the dog owner would blame me/her. The dog is not used at stud (I have asked) and in my opinion, this is nothign more than appaling manners on the part of the owner. Apparently the dog sdoesn't do it to all bitches, just 'the ones he likes'.

There should never be in season bitches where dogs are allowed off lead exercise.  You may own a breed that doesn't go more than two feet away from you off lead, but most people do not.  As for having to ask permission for dogs to meet and greet each other in the park????

The bitch is in season and keeping her away from males is totally the bitch owners responsibility.

Taking an in season bitch out where dogs are having off lead exercise could cause dogs to fight, dogs to disobey their owners, and of course dogs pestering your bitch.  My girls find an in season bitch of interest too.

Taking an in season within reach of loose dogs to me is the height of bad etiquette.

Calling a stud dog away from a bitch on his own groudn by his owner in a confined space is totally different.  My bog off Jozi woudl never disobey my recall at home, or on a flexi or long line, you watch her when she decides she is going to raid the park bin, I can take a flying leap.

We aren't talking abotu not allowing a dog to roam or escape it's garden we are talkign abotu public greenspaces where dogs are allowed to excersise off lead.  Surely walking yoru bitch in the street where all dogs met will/should be on lead is good manners for the few weeks she si in season.

I have owned 7 bitches over 15 years and handled 3 dogs for stud work.

Also re the lab, maybe you should simply leave yoru bitch off lead to interact properly with this boy to tell him to bugger off, that is what bitches do, and if they do it right he will stop.  It is called normal canine socialisation.

>Zarah-Ktee, I've seen you say this a few times. How would you cope if one of your dogs couldn't go out for some reason?

I dont know how i or them would cope.It's not as iff they are hyper at home,it's a case of me feeling sorry for them if we have missed a walk and them not settling properly."I" need to see them totally exhausted at the end of the day,so they can have a solid sleep through the night.
My dogs dont play in the garden or chase balls etc,they're only outlet is when we go out.I cant expect them to sleep 24 hours a day.
We went out on our mormal walkies a day after them getting spayed,they just took it easier than usual.

I probably feel worse for them then they do if we miss a walk,i dont know.If they were for some reason injured i would still take them out,but keep them on lead and just sit around at the park or elsewhere where there's lots of things for them to look at,they enjoy sitting back and watching other dogs run about.Either way they would still get a couple of outings everyday,whether they were able to run about or not.
Touch wood i have never had to experience this before.

But chasing rabbits or deer is instinct, but dogs can still be trained to stop chasing them and come back when called. Why should calling a dog back from an in season bitch be different? As I said above, when I toook my girl to stud, and obviously that was at the stud dog owners house, so a situation in which he knew what his job was, and therfore likely to be less uncontrollable, the owner had total control over him, being able to call him away from my bitch during their initial meeting

Yes it is possible to train dogs to overcome their chase instincts but with a bitch in season being walked would you like to take the risk that every entire dog you encounter is owned by  someone who has 100% control of their dog. So many times on here we read of people who have had adverse encounters with off lead dogs who don't  respond to their owners. To me it does not seem to be a realistic expectation to assume that all dogs encoutered will be on their best behaviour :)

Brainless

But people ARE talking about roaming dogs/dogs jumping over fences. Somewhere above people are mentioning in season bitches walking through their village as being a nuisance and dogs jumping over fences. Surely both parties, those with in season bitches and those with entire dogs should take equal responsibility. In my eyes, that means both parties be responsible for keeping their dogs under control at all times (which surely, should apply regardless of entirety?). I don't disagree that walking in season bitches away from other dogs is common courtesy, but I do think that almost all male entire dogs are capable of being trained to recall from in season bitches in any situation. People just don't bother, the same as most people don't bother to train their dogs properly at all.

There is a post in the breeding section where people are telling someone that their bitch getting out of her garden into her neighbours and being mated by her 9 month old dog is the bitch owners responsibility. I agree. However, people above seem to think that entire dogs jumping fences to get at in season bitches (presumably being pavement walked, on lead) is the bitch owners responsibility.

I have a breed that is easier than most to train. That does not mean she never goes two foot away from me. However, I have spent a LOT of time training her, including gun dog work, which was expensive in terms of time and financially for me. She is not well behaved because of her breed, but because of all I have done with her.

Harley

I would not take the risk that ANY dog I encounter is under complete control by their owner, whether my bitch was in season or not. I ensure I walk my in season bitch away from any other dogs, unless I know them, and am lucky enough to have private land, away from other dogs, where I can walk her off lead while in season. However, it SHOULD be a realistic expectation that all dogs I encounter should be on their best behaviour, or at least under complete control. I doubt it will ever happen though, as people train their dogs FAR too little, hence we constantly hear of situations where dogs are bitten by other dogs, frightened by other dogs etc etc.

In response to jackson

>But chasing rabbits or deer is instinct, but dogs can still be trained to stop chasing them and come back when called. Why should calling a dog back from an in season bitch be different?

The desire to hunt or chase which has been selectedly bred for is totally different to the desire which is inborn in all living species, i.e. the desire/need to procreate.  Therein lies the enormous difference.  Some will be less hard wired to this instinct than others but nonetheless this drive is not comparible with those you have quoted.

>I do think that almost all male entire dogs are capable of being trained to recall from in season bitches in any situation

Just how many entire males have you personally owned and trained to have formed that view and of that number how many of them were used at stud?

I have only owned two entire males myself, neither of which have been used at stud, but both of which have been impeccably trained. So, my personal experience is somewhat limited. I do know plenty of people who own entire males though, some of which are used at stud and all of which are also impeccably trained. However, most people I know own working dogs or show dogs, which I suppose means they have more training than the average pet dog.

A didn't say ALL dogs can be trained to come away from in season bitches, I said ALMOST all. Maybe I am being optomistic in my expectations, but that fact still is, too many people keep entire dogs and bitches (or neutered/spayed dogs or bitches for that matter!) without being appropriately responsible for them.

reply jackson

Even *impeccably trained* dogs can err ;)  IMO and experience any dog, regardless of breed, background, gender and training cannot be 100% guaranteed to behave or react in a specific manner in *every* situation - those who beieve they can have, IMO, simply *not yet* met the situation where the impeccable training would let them down :)

Or maybe they are knowledgable enough not put themselves in the situations where the 'impeccable' training can let them down?

It would take a greater knowledge than mankind possesses to predict exactly when their charge was within (for eg) a 2 mile radius of an in season bitch - not just once or twice but throughout the life span of their dog (and every neighbouring one too!)

A didn't say ALL dogs can be trained to come away from in season bitches, I said ALMOST all. Maybe I am being optomistic in my expectations, but that fact still is, too many people keep entire dogs and bitches (or neutered/spayed dogs or bitches for that matter!) without being appropriately responsible for them

I agree with you :) but know that there are a lot of dogs out there, either accompanied or not, who do not fit our ideal world so would never take the chance myself if I was in that situation - I only have neutered males.

From another point of view I think we have to remember that, in order to attain that desired level of training, there comes a point when all the training practiced at home has to start being used out in the big wide world and it is inevitable that there will be times when what we ask of our dogs will not always be what we get from them. It is only by proofing the desired behaviour in all situations that the level of training advances. Not all dogs that seem to be ignoring their owners are owned by irresponsible owners - some may be novice owners (we all start off as novices) and others may be working on the training but the dog is having an off moment :)

My 2 year old dog has passed his gold KC good citizen test but, when panicked by a firework, his flight instinct overcame everything and he bolted :(

So are yo saying the average entire dog would run off from it's owner to get to a bitch of two miles away without recalling? I don't doubt some would, but I also think most wouldn't, even with an avergae level of training. There is a park within 200 metres of our home, where plenty of entire dogs walk, and I have yet to have one hanging around outside due to my in season bitch.

I live overlooking open parkland and bridle paths and yes, I've seen plenty of dogs over the years tearing off into the no-mans-land areas in search of an acutely desirable scent and these are just joe public's average family pet dogs :)

Hence why I would not, under any circumstances, exercise my entire in season bitches there nor for that matter have I ever taken my entire males (including stud) there when their live-in girls are in season either :)  It matters not whether I trust their implicit integrity to my every word or not (which as it happens I dont LOL) but I certainly don't believe in being complacent about how others of their species may react.

As I've already mentioned, IMO the desire to procreate is far greater than that of most others - I definitely can't say that a piece of roast chicken or a game of tug would have the same reaction as a potential mating to my stud dog, or any one elses for that matter and certainly not 1005 of the time!

the majority of complete males when scenting a bitch in heat (especially when shes ready to mate) do not have any control over themselves. the hunting instinct has been bred into them by people, the mating instict is dictated by the dopamine system and is a preprogrammed aspect of any living creature. as brainless said the circumstance are different. and who says it's all the dog? the bitch will usually be eager to stand when she's ready and will, be be frank, turn into a wee tart.
"As for entire dog owners not knowing if there is an in season bitch about, surely people should not allow their dogs (whatever the circumstances) to go over to others without seeking the owners permission first anyway?" wow you've some obedient dogs, they recall instantly every time you call? not every dogs recall is perfect, they are creatures not robots, sometimes another dog is just to appealing, especially if the girls in heat