ok, so we obviously have from other threads very passionate feelings about which trainers we favour- so who is everyones favorites? now i will be honest i've never spent a huge amount of time looking into trainers (i just learned what suited our dogs while growing up and took my cues from my parents) but i feel its something worth researching. i'm reading jan Fennels Seven Ages of the Dog just now and i like a lot of her thinking (very similar to how we've always done it really) but who is everyones favorites and why? (after the cesar milan threads i'm hoping for lively debate!)

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Hi Astarte

this

>i'm reading jan Fennels Seven Ages of the Dog just now and i like a lot of her thinking

followed by this

>(after the cesar milan threads i'm hoping for lively debate!)

should certainly do it :D :D :D

An absolute non-fan of CM and JF here ;)

I dont believe in rank reduction, domination (human or canine), ignoring greetings etc (ami chien bonding :rolleyes: ) - nope, best I dont ever try to write a book because I could put my training methods down on the tiniest of flyers and still have room for a very large logo :P  Reward, reassure and relax - those three "R"s pretty much cover my views on interacting with my dogs and bringing out the best in them while gently educating them to behave in acceptable ways around others of any species (haven't quite mastered the rabbit/hare/squirrel/red deer populations yet though :rolleyes: but hey ho ;) )

regards, Teri

lol, oh dear, poor wee herbivores. i've a buffet point of view, there are good bots and bad bits to most trainers techniques. i don't feel that any owner can take their work as gospal and apply it to their dog as they are all individuals. i like cesars views on excercise etc and on energy because (i'm sure you'll agree) that a dog gets wound up when its owner does. however his overt dominance is (i think) alarming. little bits form various theories, like a healthy diet :)

tbh there is no 1 trainer that I would choose to follow, I am a frim believer in tailoring training to your individual dog as after all they aren't robots!:rolleyes:

I agree with Astarte.  I think it's rare to find a trainer with whom you agree on EVERY point. I think every trainer probably has at least some good ideas. After all, if they didn't they wouldn't have much of a career. But, like childcare, I think you take what feels right to you from each trainer, and ignore the rest if it doesn't appeal.

Most methods work - some work better than others but what REALLY works is consistency, and if you are using a method which feels right to you, you are more likely to stick with it.

I'm sure Jan Fennel has  some good ideas but I saw her on telly (admittedly years ago)  and some of her theories seemed a bit  "woo woo"  to me. And Cesar Millan is a bully. I like Victoria Stillwell - she seems to be a bit more up-to-date than others.

I like Dog Borstal - Mic Martin is firm but fair, Rob Alleyne seems rather more "trendy"  in his methods than Mic, and that Lynne woman seems a bit obsessed with pack order at times... but they get results, and often it is the last chance for the dogs on this programme.

lol, kate please please tell me what "woo woo" means lol, i've this mental picture of her wandering up to dogs waving about making that noise (sorry, i've been in the lib all day, sinking into madness)

LOL sorry -  by  "woo woo"  I mean... sort of fanciful/unlikely.

I can't remember the exact situation, but she was saying something like the dog thinks we are its babies, which she was saying explained whatever problem the owners were having  (as I say, I forget what, now).... now I may be wrong, but I imagine that dogs know perfectly well we aren't their babies....

lol, i see, aw thats nowhere near as fun. maybe she was trying to simplify that the dog was being allowed to dominate its owners?

>Victoria Stillwell

Whoops, crash, another one bites the dust :D :D :D

Terrestrial tv is becoming as quirky as it's satellite relations unfortunately and so more and more of these "professionals" are finding their way into the average pet owning publics living room - not IMO a good idea at all :)

Far better for an owner to go along to a recommended class run by a behaviour trained tutor who will give general tips on day to day management and one to one specific help with areas that very individual dogs and their very individual owners are finding more challenging :)

Remember that tv shows are *heavily edited *- these rogue dogs with weird and wonderful bad habits are not genuinely turned around in 30 minutes (even without an ad break!)  Unfortunately some members of the public now believe that any one or more of these "celebrity trainers" are preaching the Gospel of Perfect Pets :rolleyes: and even more unfortunately are applying some of their methods in wholly inappropriate situations!

IMO the ONLY good training methods are always about reward, patience and consistency and NEVER leans towards harsh handling, verbal or physical punishment, rank reduction etc.

regards, Teri 

without meaning to sound like a cow, "these rogue dogs with weird and wonderful bad habits are not genuinely turned around in 30 minutes (even without an ad break!)  Unfortunately some members of the public now believe that any one or more of these "celebrity trainers" are preaching the Gospel of Perfect Pets"- i really worry how dim some folk can be (not you teri, the viewing public)

Teri, sorry only 'picking' on you here as you've mentioned pack theory/rank reduction AND have recommended the book. :D I've just started to read The Perfect Puppy, which is oft recommended on here - whilst pack theory is usually now dismissed as outdated. To me, these views seem contradictory and could be confusing to people who read this forum.

Am I missing something that will become apparent as I get further in to the book.

M.

>Am I missing something that will become apparent as I get further in to the book.

Yes. The 'Leading the Pack' chapter is outdated, but I find that the way the principles of housetraining as well as the methods for teaching basic obedience are extremely well put, and very easy for novice owners to understand. :)

Hi M,

as pointed out already by JG in the main GB's methods and books cover fairly good all round basic training but yes, as with many before her, she has (in parts) gone down the route of "pack theory" - hence why *recently* I have rarely (if at all but not sure on that :D ) recommended any book or regime - far more likely referenced specific articles dealing with specific problems such as Ian Dunbar's "bite stop" :)

I, through personal interest, went down the route many years ago (around early 1990's) of researching, attending courses and studying behaviour methods when pack theory, rank reduction and "flooding" methods were seemingly THE way to go.  Since then I have seen many respected behaviourists about turn on these methods.   IMO and IME I feel strongly that previously lauded methods were seriously flawed and the now more commonly practiced in "behaviorist circles" methods of studying canine behaviour in situ with other canines, taking into account breed specific anomalies and basing training on rewards and positive regimes is infinitely better :) 

FWIW I dont personally use or buy further training books - those bought some years back were for research purposes to help better understand existing problematic behaviours and how to overcome them.  Raising a puppy to be a normal, happy, well adjusted family pet doesn't IMO need books but merely application of common sense and an instinctive feel for why certain behaviours appear.  That said, not everyone is necessarily intuitive or instinctive about their newly acquired family member and unfortunately it is in those scenarios where it is better to encourage attending a reputable training class particularly geared towards pups only and, failing that, individual articles by a fairly wide range of authors covering specific problems.

HTH clarify, Teri :)   

Thanks Teri. I'm of the same opinion really, hence having had TPP in my bedside drawer for around a year before getting round to it! It does rather feel that some of these training methods are the new washing powder - "it's the best thing since ... we told you the previous version was the best thing". Jan Fennell seemed to be very highly spoken of a few years back, but haven't heard much praise of her for some time now.

I've been continuing to watch The Dog Whisperer to have a bit more thought on his methods - decided to try his tsssccch noise on my young girl tonight - for the first time ever, she stood and waited for me to make her dinner, instead of acting like I hadn't fed her for a month. She then ate her dinner and then took herself off under the dining table and sulked all night LOL, delicate little flower. Think she'd leave home if I tried the prods or the spiked collar!!

M.

I know what you mean about "the new", then "the new improved" followed shortly afterwards by "the best ever" :rolleyes: drives me potty :P

I must admit "The Dog Whisperer" in my view is very much a misnomer - doesn't exactly do a lot of "whispering" ;)

Bit like the "Listener" version - doesn't seem to hear much :D

I dont care if my dogs eat first, - we eat when we want, they OTOH eat at regular intervals!  And, shock horror, they can precede me through doors plus far better they be ahead of me going down stairs too so they dont inadvertently push me down and land on my crumpled heap at the bottom (LOL, have no indoor stairs as it happens but you get my drift).

I like my dogs up on my settee and on my bed.  Sometimes they take up more room than us and we have to say "off please" whereupon most jump off until we've resettled and then join us again except sometimes the grumpier and more beligerent oldies who just get shuffled over/along a bit :P :P :P

PERSONALLY, I love the enthusiasm with which my dogs greets me coming in from the shops or just coming out of the loo (when they're not in with me to start with - rare :rolleyes: ) and so I dont want to ignore them for the first few minutes I get back or until everything is packed away.  They LOVE me, they enjoy showing it and I enjoy experiencing it so, for me and mine, most of these training regimes just dont/wont/cant work :D

regards, Teri :)

How refreshing to find someone out there who does exactly the same as I do with my dogs & hasn't picked up a book to learn to do it either!  ;)

Sounds good Teri, a nice chilled relaxed household, just what I advocate, dogs are dogs and are so much happier when the household is relaxed and they don't have to walk on eggshells and mind their P's and Q's all the time :-D  Mine precede me through the door too, in fact ***shock horror** I stand and wait for them to go first.  :-D

yep here too!!!!!!

(though i think Mav is planning to run for primeminster & then take over the world)

>in fact ***shock horror** I stand and wait for them to go first

now that's what I call spooooky!!!!!   So do I (perhaps you and I are twins separated at birth :D )

i will open the door & hold it open "go on then out you go"

I've taken bits from most of the trainers I have seen in person & on TV. For example I wouldn't alpha roll a dog as per Cesar, but I would body block to move them away from barking at windows / doors. I don't insist on the dog sitting and waiting to eat with his bowl on the floor in front of him, but I do expect them not to jump up and knock the bowl out of my hand, and not to get on the table and start eating my food! :-)

Now on 7th family dog (lost 4 over the years-have 1 geriatric+ 1 5yr -daughters dogs, she is living at home) and my nearly 6 mth GSD.
We use a 'pick-n-mix' training taken from everywhere and everyone  BUT I made a LOT of mistakes with the very first dog (got away with things as she was very laid back and anything for a quiet life girl)
When we got her I didn't have enough experience or knowledge to do what I do now, as in know what was working for individual or even how to 'read' the dog and its reaction to things.
I think its safe to say that the best trainer is experience coupled with a variety of different breed/atitude/outlook dogs

IMO the ONLY good training methods are always about reward, patience and consistency and NEVER leans towards harsh handling, verbal or physical punishment, rank reduction etc

Yes, yes and yes! For me that equals clicker training and a shining example if a wellknown trainer would be Mary Ray.

It's AMAZING to have a fully clicker trained dog (i.e. one that has never been trained in any other way) -they work in a totally different ways to dogs trained in more traditional ways, as they have learnt to think for themselves and work things out. Simple example: I stand in the kitchen, take something out of the fridge and start eating it, standing up. 7 dogs stare at me and all wish they could have some. They all sit, knowing that might work. It doesn't, I'm not giving them any. So 6 dogs give up, go to their beds or just stay sat. The 7th, the clicker trained one, instead tries a down. If that doesn't work, she tries a stand. If that doesn't work, she may try a hand target, or a retrieve, or something else. She never stops thinking of new ways. It's wonderful. You can train her to do something new just by waiting for her to do it, and click at the right moment. (And as I use a clicker word, I never need to carry a clicker around with me either, so can do it at any time as long as the click always is followed by a reward.) :)

I'm debating with myself whether to use a tongue cluck instead of a clicker Marianne - I've bought a clicker in anticipation of clicker training my new pup, but I can make a nice, clear, loud  "cluck"  with my tongue so I'm wondering if that might make more sense, since it frees up another hand.... what do you reckon?

Yes will work, i have a "clicker" word, "yesss" with flynn to mark the behavoiur i wanted, he never actually "got" the Click, but completly understood what i meant with a "yes"

Yes, yes and yes! For me that equals clicker training and a shining example if a wellknown trainer would be Mary Ray

Mary is awe inspiring, Top of her tree in Different disclipnes & with different breeds! She teaches & inspires people the world over!
& is such a lovely grounded person, not a "ego" like all this telivised "trainers", yet has more Charisma & talent & canine understanding in her little toe than they all have collectivley imo

I stand in my kitchen with my clicker in one hand and a favorite titbit in the other when my dogs tail is up and wagging I give the click and straight in with the treat.

She stands lovely in the show ring looking up at her Mum and wagging her tail like mad- - a dog with it's tail down spoils the outline. Well in my breed it does.

I am sure it helped with my confidence and hers.

She was three last month and was made into a Champion in Oct last year.

I am now clickering my new pup-he seems to be getting the hang of it-little and often.

However the down stay in the show ring at his first show was something I was not prepared for !!! Not to worry he did get a second out of eight, so very pleased. Crufts here we come.

I train with Pat Watson,She is a top OB Trainer & has Trained 7 OB CH & produced tons of Quality OB Dogs under her FOREVERMAGIC affix,Alot of the top OB lines today have her breeding behind them. Her husband Herbie & His Dog Jazzie have broken all records for Winning Ob CCs they are on about 61 (+???) now, She is Famed for her puppy training.

Ive found her Very Motivational, Very Insightful with all the different dogs using different methods to suit each one.She Is primarily interested in building up Confidence in the Dog, The Handler & in Each Other,but also in the dog expressing itself!

Shes Fab & ive learnt so much from her, not only from lessons, but in Watching her train her own dogs & from watching her train other people.

Am I the only one who doesn't buy books to train their dogs? Or has no desire to read any?   But just applies patience & some degree of discipline in a pup so they know their boundaries, mine only ever go to Ringcraft classes & they all seem pretty well rounded individuals!

No, not alone at all ChristineW - as I've said above it was a one time interest of mine to train towards being a behaviourist, not for my own dogs but to help understand better where things can go wrong.  I *muddle along* just fine with my pets and have none with major hang ups :D

Personally I think most of us can raise our pups to be perfectly happy, well adjusted, non territorial etc without resorting to plundering the local library, book shop or internet :)

Frankly I think the need for behaviourists arrived AFTER they had already been around for donkeys years :D - so many ordinary family homes are inundated with TV shows telling them dogs should always do this, do that and sure as heck NEVER  do a/b/c/d etc that many owners are lacking in self confidence to tackle things needing addressed because they've never employed rank reduction for example :rolleyes:   It's a great pity really because what could be a very easily overcome training issue can now be so easily blown out of proportion and seemingly need *professional intervention* instead of good old fashioned common sense, patience and commitment!

regards Teri 

i've never bought a bokk for training either tbh. i've one of jan fennels but its about all the life stages and was bought to read on whelping etc when my parents had their litter that i was helping with.

Ian Dunbar.

to answer MarianneB, i have never understood the difference between 'good dog' and give a treat and 'click' and give a treat? my dog is not clicker trained but will go through her repertoire of tricks to try to get a treat too, so is there a differnce or am i missing something??

The difference is that most dog owners (myself included) say "good dog" many times a day without giving a treat. I also say it when they've not done anything at all but just look cute!

The "click" is only used when giving a treat (or toy/game reward).

All dogs tune us humans out because we talk so much to other people, on the phone and so on, thats why using a clicker often has a more powerful impact than using just words. Although I do also use a clicker word for when I don't have a real clicker to hand.

Yes Karen1 is correct.My clicker word is "Good" -so I no more say "Good dog" or similar (this is why Michelle's word of Yes is far better in many ways!!), but it is also said in a different way -quickly, very deliberate. They know that once they've been "gooded" a treat will follow, whereas if I say "Clever dog" that is just verbal praise and nothing special, so not worth working a lot for.

i know a few people that use "bingo" ,
i also know people that use "yesss" & then also "jackpot" for a really good thing that is going to get a massive handful of treats!!!!

All very interesting

to answer MarianneB, i have never understood the difference between 'good dog' and give a treat and 'click' and give a treat? my dog is not clicker trained but will go through her repertoire of tricks to try to get a treat too, so is there a differnce or am i missing something??

Clicker training and training with a clicker is two different things. There are a lot of people using a clicker - some correctly, some wrongly - but not many actually use clicker training principles. Clicker training means train in small steps, it generally means shaping behaviour, it means make the dog think what to do, not just make them follow. You can quite easily use a clicker word instead of an actual clicker, if you use the same clicker training methods, you'll get the same results.

The clicker does have the advantage that it is a fairly unique sound and that this sound is - if introduced correctly - very strongly associated with a reward. Dogs hear our voice all day long, so even a clicker word may not necessarily trigger them same strong reward feeling for the dog.

Vera

I haven't worked with that many in person but my favourite so far is John Rogerson. For book only trainers I'd have to pick Ian Dunbar.

ok, I am not going to start a flame war.

I agree that most people take things from different trainers and put them into one to make their dog the best it can be.  But honestly, I dont know what training method works the best for every dog.  It has to be customized to each dog.

When I first got my pup she was pulling my hair.  I have very long hair, and if it was in her way, she would yank it.  Stanley Coren says to make a loud yelp, and stop whatever you are doing and ignore the dog.  That didnt work.  When I "yelped" she got more excited.  I called my aunt, asking what she would do (she also has long hair, so I was sure she had experience with puppies pulling at it).  After she said to go bald (as a joke) she told me to pop the collar every time she did it.  She is now a year and a half old, and hasnt touched my hair since she was about 6 months old.  (although she can find spaniel hair under furniture really easy, and always enjoys that)

When my pup went dog aggressive, I had no idea what to do.  I started using SOME of CM tools.  I started with the CHST sound he makes, which basically means no.  Then I have used a firm touch, not a jab as I have heard it described.  I have also ignored unwanted behaviour (such as bardging at me at the door when I come in.) Now, she waits for me to get inside, and I have no problem getting through the house.  The worst thing in the world is having to use the washroom right when you get in the door, and having a dog in your way as you try to get there quick.

Also, feeding time, I make her do something for her food.  Whether its a sit, a stand, or even to go up the stairs to her kennel.  Thats working for her food, just like any pack animal has to do.  Wolves have to walk long distances, hunt, kill, and then eat.  Nothing is handed to them without having to do something first.

I also use schedules.  Feeding 8am and then again at 5pm.  Bedtime at 11pm.  Things like that.  Since I am a scheduled person, it only makes sense for the dogs to have some sort of schedule to be on.  But heaven forbid if I am late!!!!!!!

I tried lure training, and it didnt work at all!  So I dont bother using it, other than I guess you could call baiting in the ring lure training, but other than that, she doesnt do it.

So I guess it is safe to say, do what works. 

what does pop the collar mean?

I think you should take from the trainers what you think applies to your individual dog and work from there! :)

I've heard people use it to mean a sharp yank on the lead.

jerk (not you the collar).

Popping the collar is a Canadian slang, used quite often, for giving a correction.  Not harsh, just a "hey thats not allowed"  kinda thing.  Before I did it, I did it on my wrist to see what it felt like (mind you I couldnt use her collar, had to use the spaniels, a size 6 collar didnt fit on my wrist).  It doesnt hurt.  I never use a prong (dont even know if they make them small enough for my breeds neck.....never looked into them) and I use a fine chain collar.  I dont like the nylon ones, because on a pulling dog, they tend to get burns, had that happen the the spaniel many years ago, collar burn much like rug burn on her neck.  (Very fast dart to the end of the leash, made the collar go clockwise on her neck as she spun, and so "rug burn" on her neck from the collar)

I've only ever heard the term "pop" used in relation to a quick sharp jerk given whilst the dog is wearing a choke chain or a prong collar. Certainly not how I would deal with a pup tugging at my hair, but we all do things differently I guess!

There are various trainers and behaviourists that I have a lot of respect for... starting with Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, etc.

However, one trainer/behaviourist that I particularly like is Caroline Menteith. Her recent book "The Dog Manual" from Haynes Publishing is a puppy/dog training book that I can recommend without the slightest hesitation and without having to warn about certain chapters...! Fab stuff.

Vera

Ceasar Milan may not be everyones ideal, but he does go with the common sense and first stop, side of training which I like. Lots of exercise and time.

Mary Ray is my sort of trainer.  I once watched her in competition, and her dog had done very well until they got to the scent part.  Her dog went backwards and forwards from one piece of cloth to another.  He was obviously getting more and more agitated, and took ages, before picking up the wrong piece.  When he returned, Mary praised him like mad, relaxing him immediately.  My kind of lady.

I second Carolyn Menteith's book - it's really good.
Lots of photos and not only step by step "how to do it" but also a section on sorting out common behaviour problems such as jumping up,
using very humane methods.
The emphasis is on something often missing from dog training programmes and books - FUN!!!!!

Anyone here watch the Dog Whisperer on SKY, he does some fantastic training with 'MOUTH CLICKING;