OK so i have researched the breed i am interested in for afew years, visited many breeders that had puppies (but never found 'the one'), spoke to breeders and FINALLY found my bitch. We have her home now and she is afew months old. We are planning on breeding her, she comes from good lines, champions in her family line (both sides) and is genectically clear of the health requirements for her breed (not sure if i'm allowed to say what they are?).
So i know its best to wait until she is in her 2nd/3rd season but i figured its best to do my research now into stud dogs so i'm all prepared (i have to be organised you see). So my question is, how do i find a good stud dog that will compliment my bitch? will i have to wait until she is older before i do this so i know her good/bad points? is it wise to do more research and buy my own stud or pay for a stud service? thank you in advance.

Why not go back to your breeder and see what thay think as they know the lines and so would be able to guide you through what sire would be best for your girl if she is good enough to breed. By the way I am not sure how you can say she is clear of health requirements as most health tests would not be done until at least 12 months of age in most breeds :)

both her parents were clear and the breeder told me that makes her clear at birth. so is it advisable to still get her tested then?

her breeder knows i will be using her to breed from, i never thought of asking him to recommend a stud.

I would be very concerned if your breeder has said she will be clear if both parents are as only testing her will determine this ;)

If this is the advise they have given I would question their experience and would perhaps not take everything they say as gospel.

Why not try your breed club as first line of research and also go along to some shows and talk to other breeders as well. Are you going to show her ?

But if both parents have been DNA tested as clear, then presumably the offspring will be clear at birth?  But you will need to check up on this, Sunbeam

Without knowing the breed it's hard to know what tests are required, but hips can't be scored until 12 months and eyes usually have to be tested yearly. Hearing tests are done young, but require each individual to be tested - knowing the parents' status isn't enough.

Sorry I am confused as how for example can you DNA test for Hip Dysplacia

Sorry I am confused as how for example can you DNA test for Hip Dysplacia

All depends on the breed. Some toy breeds for instance won't need to be hip scored but will only need eye testing, and certain conditions in certain breeds can be DNA tested for, in which case doing yearly eye testing will not be required.

BTW there is a DNA test for HD being developed -the KC sent out letters to a lot of people with hip scored dogs a few years ago asking for DNA samples from a range of scores, I was asked for a DNA sample for my dog who is 48/48, as they are developing a DNA test where you will be able to test the pups more or less at birth to find out what their hips will be like. :)

this is what i found on the breed council website for my breed.

Recommendations
1) All breeding stock should be DNA tested for both L-2 Hydroxyglutaric Aciduria (L-2HGA) and Hereditary Juvenile Cataract (HC) before they are bred from, unless they are from parents shown to be hereditarily clear. (See note 1)..

I could be on the wrong track (not unusual!) but those tests suggest the Staffy to me. If so then there are other conditions that also need testing for: see here. If I'm barking up the wrong tree, please excuse me!

yes, i was going to be getting her tested for those anyway.

Ok understand that but surely before breeding you would have to DNA test the dog ? Yes Duds was part of that research programme so will be interesting to see what they develop. I still don't undertsand though how it can determine environmental factors in HD though as well as genetical HD :)

Yes that's a very good question about environmental HD!! I'd love to know.

In my cat breeds we DNA test for a genetic condition. If both parents are clear, it is impossible for any kittens to be affected. Therefore, if I have two tested parents (negative)  and keep a kitten from them I will not test that kitten as I know it is impossible for that kitten to be affected -and I have the certificates of both parents to prove it. Hence I will also breed from such a cat without DNA testing it -there is no need. HOWEVER, if I buy in a cat from negative parents, then I always have it DNA tested as I want proof of my own of the negative status.

Hi LJS

If the condition is purely hereditary, then if the parents are genetically clear, the offspring cannot develop the condition (hence the expression, clear by birth), unless there is an unfortunate mutation. 

However, conditons such as HD are thought to be partly environmental, rather than purely hereditary, so the parents being clear (which is tested by scoring rather than a DNA test) is no guarantee that the offspring will be clear, but it improves the likelihood of good scoring offspring.

this is what i have also read. if both parents have clear certificates (they have i have seen them) then the offspring are clear at birth. if one is a carrier then the pups have 50/50 on becoming crriers themselves and if the parents are affected then you just don't breed from them ever.

I don't know what breed you have.  One of the tests my breed has to have is eyes (glaucoma).  My pups parents both had clear eyes (I bred the pup), but the pup has just failed her eye test.  Just bad look, but it happens

i was going to get my bitch tested for these anyway, it will show on her KC papers that she is genetically clear, i'm still waiting for her papers to come through but i thought if i get her tested also i will have her clear certificates in my possession.

Hi! It's good to see someone taking breeding seriously - well done! :)

Firstly, definitely don't buy your own stud dog - you have your choice of the greatest champions in the country for a small fee (about the price of a puppy) without having to pay for years of keep, with no guarantee that the dog you bought would turn out to be suitable for your bitch. So put that idea out of your mind. :)

To find out which dog would best suit your bitch you'll need to have her independently assessed by breed specialists - we all think our own animals are the bees knees but we're naturally biased! You need several unbiased opinions, and to learn which are her strong points and which are her weaker points - you don't want to use a stud which has the same faults. You'll also need to study his existing offspring to find out what strengths and weaknesses he tends to pass on. In most breeds this involves entering your bitch at shows to be judged against the breed standard; this is also where you'll see the stud dogs. If your bitch is consistently well placed by different judges then you know she's worth breeding from; if she's usually at the lower end of the line-up you might have to rethink your plans to breed from her at all.

thank you, thats really helpful advice. ok so i'm willing to show her but how do i go about getting her into shows? i want to do this properly and like you say if she is not good enough to breed from then i won't, she will be spayed and kept as a pet and i will be looking for another bitch.

You'll need to go to ringcraft classes (which I personally recommend to all pup owners whether or not they intend to show their dogs because the skills learned are so very useful in ordinary life) where the dogs learn to move on a loose lead around other dogs and to allow a stranger to examine them all over without being spooked (vets love ringcraft-trained dogs because they're so much easier to examine!). You'll also learn how to present her to her best advantage. The Kennel Club should be able to tell you of ringcraft classes in your area.

Have you joined your breed club? There's a wealth of knowledge and advice available from the members. :)

thank you for your great advice and help, i will be looking into these.

Join one of your breed clubs and they will have an ethics part which will advise on age of breeding, health tests etc.

Unless it is a toy breed two years of age is generally the youngest you should be considering breeding from a bitch.  You will also need to get her Hip scored, and if applicable elbow scored, eye tested for the eye conditons there are no DNA tests for.

This gives you 18 monthsof more to watch the dog and puppy classes at shows, and othr classes for that matter and see which sires are siring the kind of dogs you admire.  Make a short list of these sires, check their and theri offsprigns health status, and consult your breeder as to whether they consider any of these compatible with their bitch lines.

thank you, thats really helpful advice. ok so i'm willing to show her but how do i go about getting her into shows? i want to do this properly and like you say if she is not good enough to breed from then i won't, she will be spayed and kept as a pet and i will be looking for another bitch

What about  your breeder,  does he show his dogs?  as he will be the best place  for you to go to gain info on showing...... he may be able to recommend a "ring craft"   class in your area.

I took my dog to ringcraft as well as normal training so he could get used to being handled by others and meet LOADS of other dogs in one place and found it really useful.  I never planned to show him - he wouldn't get very far being a white boxer lol!!

Have to agree ringcraft is wonderful socialisation.

i think you really need to see how your bitch turns out before you can identify the right stud. For example, i have a bitch who is definately breeding quality, passed all health tests and done well in the ring. However she has 2 things which i wouldn't like to see in her offspring, they're not so much faults , just things that i'd like to improve.
She could have better angulation and have a darker eye. I found a dog in holland that fitted the bill perfectly to improved the two things i mentioned.
It turned out to costly to ship my bitch but i got the chance to buy a son of the stud that i was thinking of using. He was 12 months old so i knew he had correct angulation, eyes etc.
I had followed him on the breeders site from birth to 12 months, even asked the breeder to sell him to me at 3 months, i liked him that much.

Anyway bought him at 12 months, got him home at 18 months, passed all his health tests, doing pretty good in the ring and has just gave me a litter of pups. They're a bit young at the moment to be sure he's improved the 2 things i mentioned but i'm pretty hopeful he has.

Far be it for me to disagree with probably one of the wisest posters on here but i wouldn't totaly rule out buying your own stud. If he has the traits you're looking for and you can't find one you like as much for a service, i would say buy him. If he's as good as you think he is, he'll cover his own up keep if he sires a litter every so often.

Just my opinion realy.

I would just like to say that there is a very big difference between buying a 12 month old youngster, whose development you have closely watched, and buying an 8 week old puppy, as a potential stud dog.  I would not recommend any novice (not meant in an insulting way :) ) breeder to buy in their own stud dog.  Apart from anything else, keeping entire dogs and bitches together is not for the feint hearted!  And, as has already been stated, you have the choice of all the available dogs if you are paying a stud fee.  I have kept both dogs and bitches for many years (seasons are always a challenge as mine as house dogs) and, even though my boys have all been CC winners, and 2 of them champions, I have only used my own dog twice over the years.

To the OP, the best start is to show your bitch, get unbiased advice about her quality, liaise with her breeder (who is - hopefully - experienced), look around and see what you like, and seek the opinions of experienced and ethical breeders. 

Have fun - you have plenty of time
Best wishes
Carina

Ridgielover, i did say if the dog had the traits you were looking for......i obviously didn't mean an 8 week old pup and took it for granted that people would realise that. It would more than likely be to young to show the traits you were looking for.

I don't have any plans to use my stud on my bitch more than once or twice but i think we need some new lines in our breed, i got that with the stud that i bought.

As for using one of the available stud dogs (a) most didn't have the traits i was looking for and(b) the ones that did were to closely related to my bitch. So it's not always as cut and dried as it first seems. So there are certain circumstances where the best option is to get your own stud.

By the way keeping dogs and bitches apart during seasons isn't rocket science if you're set up properly for them. Keeping him quiet is a different story though.

Hi Keiko

I hope you don't think that I was criticising you - I wasn't at all :)  Good for you for importing a dog that had virtues that you couldn't find elsewhere :)

However - it does not often happen that a really good dog is for sale at 12 months; most people have to make a choice and then take their pup at about 8 weeks.  I really wouldn't advise a novice breeder to do this with the view to buying the dog pup as a potential stud for their bitch.  Too many people go down the route of buying a dog and then using it because it's there (not anyone on this site, of course!!!)

I don't think you were criticising me at all, i was just trying to explain why i went down that route. I agree with you that using somebody elses stud is easier and much less hassle than having your own. But i was just trying to point out that that isn't always the best option and in my case , it wasn't, but i'm a fussy so and so when it comes to my dogs.

I really wouldn't advise a novice breeder to do this with the view to buying the dog pup as a potential stud for their bitch.  Too many people go down the route of buying a dog and then using it because it's there (not anyone on this site, of course!!!)

I completely agree with you on that one

"Far be it for me to disagree with probably one of the wisest posters on here but i wouldn't totally rule out buying your own stud. If he has the traits you're looking for and you can't find one you like as much for a service, i would say buy him. If he's as good as you think he is, he'll cover his own up keep if he sires a litter every so often."

Unless you really want to own a male and have facilities for an extra dog then I would never buy in a male as for the price of a stud fee and travelling costs you have your pick of the top studs around and don't have to pay their upkeep.

I do own a male in partnership imported from the USA as a puppy and put through Quarantine.

there is no way he has or will ever cover the cost of importing him and his subsequent upkeep and showing.

He has so far cost each of his 4 owners in 6 years over £2000, plus stud fees when we used him on our bitches (to be fair to everyone, as we each had different opportunities to use him).  He has sired 8 litters and so far sired 4 UK champions for us.

For a breed as numerically small as ours with only 15 to 20 KC registered litters bred a year he really should not be used more than maybe twice a year, but the number of suitable bitches will be limited by the fact that he will be the grand-sire and sire of those now available.

Stud dog ownership is really for the very experienced knowledgeable breeder or for those who keep only males, and who can access the background knowledge from their dogs breeder, and can trust the knowledge of the bitch owners.  When you own a stud dog not only do you need to know your own bloodlines backwards, but those of the bitch lines too.

"Stud dog ownership is really for the very experienced knowledgeable breeder or for those who keep only males, and who can access the background knowledge from their dogs breeder, and can trust the knowledge of the bitch owners.  When you own a stud dog not only do you need to know your own bloodlines backwards, but those of the bitch lines too."

I agree completely, Barbara.  Added to that, if your dog sires a litter, you share the responsibility for that litter with the bitch owner.  This can lead to joys and heartache - and a share in the responsibility to rehome a pup / adult if things go wrong for any reason. 

Carina

Yep and the stud dog owner has no say in where the pups will be going as the homing is done by the breeder. 

A pup sired by a friends dog ended up in the Blue Cross.

My Friend went to see the pup (the breeder had emigrated), but they wouldn't let her have him as their homing policy did not allow them to let him go to someone who had multiple dogs! 

She gave them lots of advice as they really didn't understand the breed. 

Poor boy hated kennels and wouldn't eat.  She was devastated, but was promised that her details would be passed on to his new owners so they could contact her for advice.