This is a genuine question for discussion and NOT intended to start an argument - but Ive noticed several posts recently about a dogs ownership after it has gone from the breeder into their new homes and what happens to the dog after that.  For example the breeder desperately looking for where their dog had gone to after the 1st owner had rehomed it.  Or the other dog that had been pts without the breeders knowledge or request for help.  My question is why do the breeders seem to NEED to know where their dogs have gone or what has happened to them?  Sometimes it sounds as if they feel they have a RIGHT to know where their dogs are all the time and to have the ultimate say in what happens to them? To put this into context, my sister owns and has bred pedigree Burman Cats, the one that she had a couple of litters from was a grand champion and was matched to an equally high standard stud cat, my sister was breeding to continue her line and the owners were VERY carefully selected and all aftercare was given, and if anyone rang up now asking for advice (the cats would now be around seven yrs) she would have dropped everything to help - ie a caring and conscientious breeder.  HOWEVER - she feels that its absolutely none of her business if people choose not to tell her what has happened to the cat.  It is THEIR cat not hers, she helped bring the cat into the world, sold him or her to the best owners she could find and then it was up to them to love and care for their new cat.  Similar in the horse world, I owned and adored two horses (when I was married) and it broke my heart when I had to sell them to new owners when I got divorced.  I wouldnt expect the new owners to tell me if they had to sell that horse at a later date, so why do dog breeders seem to want to?

>why do the breeders seem to NEED to know where their dogs have gone or what has happened to them?

It's obvious - it's because they care about the future welfare of the puppies. They have a responsibility to them all their lives long, so of course they're not going forget about them as soon as they've got the money in their pockets. That's a puppy farmer's attitude, not a caring breeder's.

When your children leave home you still keep in touch, don't you? A good breeder is the same with their puppies.

Jeangenie has said it all.....Because we CARE

Agree, they are part of my family, the offspring of my beloved companions, so of course I want to know they are not in any need that I could help with.

I don't feel that I must be involved with all the minutiae of their lives if the owners don't wish for close contact, but I like to think of each new owner as an extension of my family.

I am not the pestering kind of breeder and understand that for many people they feel it is their dog and don't appreciate a breeder hovering over their shoulders, but I am always a phone cal or email away if needed.

the only time I get cross is when people move house and don't let me know.  Fro my own peace of mind I tattoo all my pups so they could be easily traced back to me should they end up in rescue.

well put JG, we care and are responsible for bringing these puppies into the world, we do not wash our hands of them after they have left. I care about all of my litters and to me they are ultimately my responsibility if anything goes wrong whatever the age of them.

Well speaking as a dog AND cat breeder I most definitely always tell all my new owners that if they cannot keep the animal, no matter how long it has been and no matter what the reason is, I prefer to have it back and will take one back any time. (I have had a few cats back as I have been breeding for nearly 20 years. A few examples: One came back after 10 years because his owner had died. Another after 6 years as his owner suddenly grew bored with him. Another owner also died, very suddenly, and the RSPCA took in all her cats. I had to contact the RSPCA and have a home check done but I still got the cat back.)

If they rehome elsewhere I want to know where it has gone. It was me who brought them into this world and the way I see it, my responsibility therefore never ends. If new owners don't want to keep in touch you can't force them, but I'd be very upset if an animal was rehomed without me being told. Let's face it, I bred them, I picked what I felt was a good home -what's to say the NEW home is a good one? That's the worry. Also I feel anybody who does NOT offer to take any animal back at any time is not being a responsible breeder. A new owner might dump it on rescue if you haven't said you will have it back any time, and then as breeders we are making the problem of homeless animals worse, and that is never acceptable. No animal from any good breeder should ever need to end up in rescue, it should be the breeder's ultimate responsibility all the time to ensure this. (Obviously again you can't force people, but the option needs to be there, and in writing.)

All cat breeders I know are the same and we all, like with dogs, put it into the contract that the breeder is to be contacted in the event of the cat needing to be rehomed. If anything, most cat breeders are far worse than dog breeders as so many (not myself) also state the cat cannot be sold on for breeding or showing even if it was sold for that purpose in the first place, and many, many also state any kittens bred from it cannot be sold for breeding, that a male cat may not mate any queens not belonging to his owner etc. Now THAT is controlling. My best friend has stud cats she has paid large sums for, and she'd be very happy to allow them to mate my queens. However the contracts she had to sign when buying them prevents this from happening.

5 years ago a dog I bred was sold on to somebody else and the first owner refused to tell me where. I still worry about that bitch each and every day. If she well looked after? Is she healthy? Is she being treated well? Has she been spayed or used for breeding? Is she even alive? It eats me up completely because I know absolutely NOTHING about where she went. :(

Jeangenie has said it all but I will add that there are already too many dogs in rescue without us adding to it. Rescues work hard for those animals they care for BUT my view is if you bring an animal into the world YOU are responsible for that animal for the rest of their life.

I have had an abused rescue dog and he was the love of my life but when I started to breed I swore no pup / dog of mine would end up in rescue and 10 years on I have kept to my word.

Agree with JG, when I home my new puppies it will be like letting children go off to a new home forever - of course I want to know what happens throughout their life. I created these lives, and I am responsible for seeing that they get good lives!

I think the word that sums it up is responsible.  We are responsible and we care.

We have done our best to make a responsible decision in breeding our dogs, doing the relevant health checks, making sure we've chosen the best mate, rearing them well etc and we then are responsible for the puppies we have produced.  We do our best to home them with responsible people but we still feel responsible for our pups for the duration of their lives.

Looking at it from the other side having bought a puppy from a breeder... I would be majorly worried if the breeder of my puppy showed no interest anymore! As it is, we are regularly in contact and if anything major happens in Jesse's life, I let her know. I do the same with our rescue dogs and keep the rescue organisations updated... even if it's just once a year to let them know that all is well! I just think it's nice to keep in touch and let the breeder know how things are going. Equally, it is also important to let the breeder know if things are not going well (medically or behaviour wise) so they are aware of any issues and can avoid a similar mating for example (especially if they have had similar feed back from the same litter).

Vera

The feedback issue is an excellent reason for new owners to keep the breeder updated - how else are they going to know if problems have arisen, that could be avoided in future?

To misquote an old Ford car advert :  it may be your dog, but it was my baby!

Margot

:-D  Not much more to add it has all been said, except a puppy, (and pedigree cat) is also a breeders hard work and effort to produce something that may have taken years, so of course we are always interested in them, how well they do and what should become of them.

Personally I have never had a puppy owner not appreciative of having me in the background, always there if needed and knowing that if anything were to go wrong their dog always has a home to come to and someone to share anything good happening, any wins, any funny stories. Some I don't hear from all year, but then they may get in touch to ask a question out of the blue, it is a comfort not a hinderance. :-)

It certainly has always given me piece of mind knowing my dogs breeders have been there still.

The exception is when a dog is passed on, the new owners don't have the same bond with the breeder, (usually) so contact may very well disintegrate altogether, but I guess breeders have to cross that bridge if it happens.

I like Brainless's idea of a tattoo, so that if the worst comes to the worst, you would find out.

I think it would also be nice if when KC dogs were transfered to new owners the KC passed a change of details to the breeder. :-)

:-D  I said I didn't have much to add............... oh boy another essay. :-P

Now that is a Good idea, but chances are pups are not going to be transfered once passed on.  I have quite a few pups that I have bred still in my name at the kennel club.  According to their records I still have about 25 dogs, two of those are deceased, another 4 are here and the rest are pups whose owners haven't bothered with the transfer.

it may be your dog, but it was my baby!

i like that!!!

Said it all really, they will always be our babies...forever. These pups/Kits have no say in the way their lives pan out and as Responsible breeders we like to do the best we can to make sure that they get the best life possible. I would be very upset if one of my puppy owners re-homed without telling me. I make it a point in my contracts that I am informed of any change in puppies life. All my new owners are happy to sign it and I would hope they would keep to it. After all they also entered into a contract as well as me.

I appreciate that everyone is different and some owners do not want as much contact as others (happily, I would count some of the people who have had puppies from me as now being good friends :D), but I do want to make sure that they all know I am here if they need advice, and I put in my contract that I am to be consulted if they need to find a new home for the dog, whatever reason. I was the one responsible for bringing those dogs into the world and I want to do my damndest to help them have a long happy and healthy life.

At the beginning of the year I had to let my rotti go unfortunately due to having to rent I was finding it hard finding accomodation and so lied and didn't tell anyone about her, it meant walking her at weird hours etc and while the other dogs could play in the garden she couldn't incase someone saw her. I had had her for 5 years, had shown her and won extremely well with her she was a brilliant show girl. She had had one litter and produced well. However she was not happy so after a few months of her being unhappy I had to make a decision I NEVER thought I would have to make..............I had to do what was best for the dog................and that was to let her go even though it felt like someone was ripping my heart out. Her breeder who I had always kept in contact with had taken her back for a while whilst I had moved into the rented house and when I had to ring him to ask if he could help of course he did. He collected her that weekend (she knew him well) and off they went, it nearly killed me but it was the best thing for her and she would be happy. Him and his wife have kept her along with her mum, her sister and her brother. He is showing her and has bred a litter from her which he now has a beautiful daughter from who is winning well. I have recently settled down and have a property she would love with land and have asked what her future is to be, her breeders would like to keep her for the rest of her life and she is happy so we will see but after she has had another litter she may well come back to me.
My point is that I was lucky to buy from a reputable caring breeder and he was only too happy to have her and in doing so safe guard her future happiness. He has always been there in the background for her life even with cards for her show wins etc and as I have no partner we have always referred to him to Lottie as wheres daddy (yes I know I know):rolleyes:
Without him I'd have had to keep her and she was so unhappy or rehome her and in the current climate concerning dog attacks this would have proved difficult even though she has a 100% temperment, she happens to think she is a labrador!!!

All breeders should offer what her breeder offers with after care service and be committed for life.
I certainly would help out anyone with a pup / dog of mine. I have also taken in pups / dogs sired by my stud dog when owners have needed help or had to rehome.

I am not a breeder but recently (6 months ago) bought a puppy. I did my research, went to the breeders house, saw the potential parents and was happy with everything i.e. conditions of dogs, breeders knowledge etc etc. i went to see the pups when they were 4 weeks old and again was happy with the condition of the pups and everytning else that you worry about when you are about to get a new dog. I went to pick the pup and bring him home when he was 7 weeks. The breeder was reall encouraging me to choose one specific dog and after much deliberation (i could have happily taken them all home) i choose the one she was recommending. As we had got to know each other a little during the process of getting the pup i thought she was thinking of me and my needs. I wanted a potential show dog and she picked one that was what she considered a good potential show dog. When i brought the pup home i had no end of trouble- sickness, diarrhea and basically constant tummy trouble. this started immediately. The vet believes the pup had this when she released him to me and should never have let him go. Through perserverance and a brilliant vet my pup got through it but suffers from awful tummy problems. im angered she allowed me to have him when its pretty certain she knew he was already ill, but even more....she has NEVER contacted me to see how he is getting on. Not even a phone call to see if he settle in ok. There is obviously a line that a breeder should stop at, and yes i would be annoyed constantly wanted to know everything about their pup, but i think a few phone calls is the very least they can do. I would be happy to have a breeder who genuinely cared about the welfare of the pups and who also reiterated that if there were any problems that the dog could go back to them. I honestly think if i rang the bredder now and said (for whatever reason) that i could no longer keep my dog, she wouldnt care less. Awful isnt it?........luckily fred has a brilliant mummy who wouldnt want to get rid of him but thats not the point.:rolleyes:

What a lovely story dogcrazy666, actually brought a tear to my eye. :-)

Yes, I do feel that I have a RIGHT to know about my pups.  If I choose to bring them into the world, then they are my responsibilty for life, if a new owner can no longer take on that responsibility.  And I make that quite clear in my contract.  If people don't like that part of my contract, then they should go elsewhere for a puppy.  I wouldn't sleep at night if I thought that any pup I had bred, had ended up in some Animal Shelter.

A lot of things have been said, but going on both sides (selling and buying), I think it is the breeders need to be sure of the pup they sell.
Last year, I bought a wonderful pup from a lady, who before that I didnt know but she had wonderful recommendations from other breeders.  I couldnt have imagined that we would be as close as we are now.  Its like she is part of my family, and without buying Cher from her, I would never have met her. 
Breeders are interested in what a pup is up to in their new home.  My friend, whom I bought Cher off of, was exstatic when I called her up and told her that my girl took BOB at the Toy Dog Club of Ontario show.  They want to be part of the ups, and downs, since they become so attached to the dog before it is rehomed.  What they do, is to make the best possible pup, and home it with the best possible home. 
From the breeder standpoint, I have seen many a person come to me for advice, not only on my breed, but others (general questions, like how do I get my dog to sit?) If I didnt enjoy being part of the dog world, and part of my pups life, then what kind of person would I be?  Probably pup farmer.  But no, I took the responsibility on, to breed my dogs, and now I have to be prepared for the responsibility until the day the pup crosses to Rainbow Bridge (and more often than not, longer)

Not much more I can add to this except to say that I have always been a bit puzzled by the attitude of the horse world over their animals - they seem quite happy to have owned a horse for many years and then just sell it on  because the owners have "lost interest" ...."gone to college" ..or seen most frequently because they are " sadly outgrown". It's almost as if they view their horses like bicycles or cars ...moving on to the next more up to date model when the old one is of no further use.

Horse breeders also appear to take no interest in what happens to the future welfare of 'their' breeding ..I have yet to see a horse breeder providing a contract or saying  they will take back any of their horses if  the need arose ....why the huge difference between the canine and equine worlds ?

Are horses not pets in the same way that dogs and cats are ? or are they viewed rather more as recreational vehicles ?

Yvonne

I suppose they know that ultimately they end up in dog food or being fed to the lions in the zoo.  I think generally horses are viewed almost like farm livestock, and abroad of course are just the same as are eaten regularly.

Actually I have no problem with Horse meat for human consumption.  I think it could be very helpful with our wild ponies to have a home market for the meat when they thin the herds.  It would give the landowners some financial incentive to manage the herds.

Just wanted to clarify is that those who don't really think about or care where their horses will go must surely know that they are likely to end up slaughtered eventually if not wanted.

A friend of mine recently had Put To sleep, Not shot, her 42 year old horse.  Because of this he could not be buried, and was cremated and his ashes were then buried.

Friends of mine do a cremation service for all pet animals including horses, they set it up after one of their old horses had to be PTS(not shot)& they were told not to bury him(they disposed of him as they were told in theory-in practice they buried him on their set aside)

I don't agree at all. just like in the dog world, there are responsible breeders/owners and there are irresponsible ones. There are also far more 'mongrel' horses being bred from than dogs, I would imagine. People sometimes have horses as general leisure animals, sometimes as show animals, in which case,, if they don't make the standard, they would be sold on. Just like some breeders might run on a pup for 6 - 12 months and then re-home it because it is not show quality.

Horse breeders, especially the good ones, often like to stay in touch with what their home-breds are doing, if for no other reason, it is advertising for the stud if they do well. I have sold horses in the past, mainly due to personal circumstance at the time, and have stayed in touch with every person I have sold to. I have also sold one horse on and still stay in touch with the person I bought him from. I also currently own a horse I bought back as the person I sold him to sold him on to someone unsuitable. I am not the exception.

Also, horses do not end up as 'dog meat' or lion food these days, a high proportion of privately owned horses are cremated and the ashes returned to the owner.

In response to the original post, if people didn't feel responsible for pups they have bred, some might end up burdening rescue centres, the unthinkable for most breeders. I have a wonderful relationship with my girls breeder, she has just helped me through having my first litter, and because of her I have found a great friend in someone who also bought a pup from her, and has also just bred her first litter.

i guess i should reply as it were me who posted about the puppy .........you folks have just aboiut said it all really all i can add is what i personally feel

as long as the pup is ok doing well then there isn't much more i can do or say I just only hope that the new owners get in touch after they get the letter that i sent to the kC
YES i feel let down that i choose an owner that let me down badly and bred from just a baby without telling me even those she was endorsed and had a contract offering a lifetime commitment but many folks moan about bad breeders this time i got a bad owner
like J says a good breeder cares about every puppy they bred and the day i stop caring is the day i stop breeding

From a litter of GSDs I bred one went to a"friend"I showed him, trained him etc for them & he was totally & utterly bombproof. When I moved down south I got the feeling that something was not right in his home but couldn't put a finger on it. Imagine my shock when the lady who runs our GSD rescue rang me in Southend to tell me that he had been signed over to them as the breeder didn't want to know ! Luckily for me our lady was well aware of who he was & who had bred him(she had used him at stud)& rang me as soon as his owner had left. No tattooing/chipping in those days so he could have been lost forever to me. Instead he came back to me & stayed with me for another 8 years until he passed away aged 15.

I stopped breeding when a similar thing happened to a Beardie I bred, but she was lost forever as she was sold on I was so gutted I couldn't risk another one of my babies being passed on without my knowledge.

I might & only might let Jessie have a litter to keep the bloodlines going( I've even got two bookings for her puppies & I haven't even had all the health tests done yet & she's way too young in any case)If she does have puppies they will be tattooed & chipped & will only go to homes I know I can trust completely. A friend of mine had a litter & because she couldn't find enough good homes kept all the boys with her. They were hard work, but she couldn't let them go to just anyone who wanted them. They are now a year old & doing really well, they are all being obedience trained & one has had his first placing.

Breeding should be a privilege not a right & the welfare of the puppies should always come first.

I got Jessie not just because her breeders & myself are good friends of some 30 years but because they know she is going nowhere & that I will love & cherish her as much as they do

Not much more I can add to this except to say that I have always been a bit puzzled by the attitude of the horse world over their animals - they seem quite happy to have owned a horse for many years and then just sell it on  because the owners have "lost interest" ...."gone to college" ..or seen most frequently because they are " sadly outgrown". It's almost as if they view their horses like bicycles or cars ...moving on to the next more up to date model when the old one is of no further use.

Horse breeders also appear to take no interest in what happens to the future welfare of 'their' breeding ..I have yet to see a horse breeder providing a contract or saying  they will take back any of their horses if  the need arose ....why the huge difference between the canine and equine worlds ?

Are horses not pets in the same way that dogs and cats are ? or are they viewed rather more as recreational vehicles

As a horse owner for many yrs , who has owned and sold on  all of our ponies horses...... yes of cause we class them as pet,  we love and care for them just the same as any other animal owner......ofcause there are  the uncaring  just like in dog owners,  but you go round any livery yard or  private home  , you will see how   the love care and attention  they receive from their owners.

My daughter started with a 12 hh pony  , we had his till he died but he was 25 when we got him,  so in his life he had had  many owners, and taught many many young children how to ride...and was lovey to see  X owners recognizing him at shows, and reminiscing over the little blighter, and his escapades.

What you need to understand  is   , to keep a horse /pony fit and healthy then need to be worked /exercised,  just think if you had a dog that lived for 25/30 yrs, and after say the age of 6 you decided  for whatever reason it was not going to go for those long walks anymore, the only exercise it got was going into your garden  everyday for the next 10/15 yrs,  it would soon become very depressed  its joints would stiffen up and generally be a very unhappy unfit individual, with possible arthritis,  which comes to most older animals....... and horses suffer from this condition just like the rest of us,  ands as w all know exercise will help to keep joints flexible.

There is nothing worse for a horse/pony to become redundant from  its job to be turned into a field for the remainder of its life.....  many old horse when they are retired go down very quickly m much better to keep them ticking over on a daily basis.

Children grow,  ponies horses don't (once fully grown)  they can only carry a certain weight,  each having a weight restriction....  you get a 12hh pony , who can carry a child , but as said child grows,  he will out grow the ponies  size , and sometimes ability,  so would you rather that pony be   restricted to   life in a field, or go on to the next child that is waiting to give him all the love and attention he needs.

This goes on throughout life  people outgrow their horse or ponies height or ability,   having then to move them on to their next home,  sometimes if you are lucky  you may have your own land and be able to keep them for ever,   

There are many forms of horse owners ship  from the pet /hobby home to the competition home,  some of these competition horses /ponies can fetch a fortune , and again they is always one for an individual's  capabilities,   and if we never moved them on, we would`nt have all the top  equine sportsman/woman out there , as they have all moved up through the grades,  from the likes of the little terror we had , to top competition horses.

Believe me , when the time came for us to move a pony .horse on, it would break my daughters and my hearts, but we where fortunate, we always had people we new waiting in the wings for ours.

Of cause there is also the seedy side of horse owners,  you only have to go to a horse sale to see that, it breaks you heart to see them .
   
but on the whole most people love their neds,  and  dread the day they have to move them on,   but they cost a lot of money to keep,   and we )horsey people )  know ,  they must be kept active to keep the healthy,  and if you are just to big to ride said horse   , you do it no favours by hanging on to him/her , he could have many many yrs infront  og him teaching the next generation to enjoy this wonderful sport.

even when you old and grey
I think of you almost every day
when you were born i felt so proud
and human prying eyes were not allowed
your mum loved you and fed you well
you grew healthy all could tell
then the day came when you had to leave
your family were happy My heart was on my sleeve
your now someones beloved friend
and i know you will love them right to the end
i know i gave you the best possible start
and puppy to adult your still in my heart

inca

That has made me cry!

It is getting near the time when my 'babies' have to go to their new homes, and it is going to almost kill me, I think, although I know the homes are wonderful.

Thankyou for posting that.

This has been a really interesting thread - thankyou.  As I said at the beginning it was just a question that had come to mind and its been really good to find out peoples thoughts.  I suppose having had horses that I had to rehome due to my marriage breakup there were a lot of painful emotions going on at that time and for me to keep in contact with the new owners would have been heartbreaking and "that should have been me riding/driving him" thoughts.  So for me it wasnt uncaring, it was caring so much that made me make a clean break.  My sister doesnt know where any of her kittens are now which is sad really.  But what this thread has done has made me find the registration certificate for my Netherland Dwarf bunny that I bought from his breeder at the National Exhibition Rabbit Fancy show, ELEVEN years ago this month.  I rang the number on the certificate tonight, (and she was still at the same number astonishingly) just to let her know that the rabbit she bred had made it to the age of 11!  She was delighted to hear about him and that he was still going strong and that we still had him after all this time.

That's excellent! I bet you made her day! 11 years is surely a fantastic age for a rabbit - I admit I know next to nothing about them.

Well that is nearly double their usual lifespan.  Five to 7 years is more usual and 10 years is unusually old.

I am really glad reading the threads has prompted you to get in touch i bet she was delighted to hear
11 wow thats a fab age