I am wondering when people will admit this exists?

Alot goes into covering it up and people saying it doesnt happen and it is sour grapes.  It has been mentioned in the canine press lately so a question from me to the KC.  Why dont you ensure all judging is fair and that all judges are competant to judge?  You would receive more entries into KC events and newcomers would come into the hobby - they see what goes on now and they are not happy and will not spend their money.  I work as a manger and politics and favours do not do well in my company.  Are the KC in on it all?  Are they so niave they do not see what is going on?  I have seen CH show judges throw their RCC's in the bin and moan if someone elae has got a 1st or 2nd and they havent.  I have also known the CC winners well in advance of any show for the last 5 months - some really poope dpgs have won CC's !Come on KC they cant win all the time and if they are such poor sports with bad manners then stop them from judging!!!  They are a disgrace to the breed and the showing fraternity and you as an institue need to stand your ground.

Dog showing is BENT and will not change unless WE change it.  Exhibitors and judges would make wonderfuk politiciasns

There is no doubt that there is a seedier side to some judges.  However, I really don't think it's as widespread as people believe it to be.  We hear all the time that "such and such dog will win at the next show under that judge".  Over the years I've heard all the excuses as to why any particular dog has won under a certain judge.  "It's by their dog, it's related to their lines, he/she is using that dog on their bitch (or vice versa), they've booked a puppy from the owner, the owner is judging later in the year and they want the ticket under them" - the list is endless.  Then, low and behold, it happens!  All the gossipers are proven correct and the judge must be bent.  But there is another side to it. 
Whenever anyone steps into the middle of the  ring they will have an idea of what they're looking for, what their interpretation of the standard is, what they consider to be the correct 'type'.  I was told by someone in May of last year what dog I'd give the ticket to in March of this year.  They were proven correct - that dog did indeed win the ticket.  Why?  Because after 25 years in the breed people have an idea of what I look for, what type I go for and what I consider to be important in my breed.  The dog in question fitted my idea of what I was looking for and they knew it.  If a dog is similar in type to what the judge has at home then, all other things being equal, of course they're going to like it.  You don't own, show or breed a type you dislike do you?  The dog I put up was very, very close to my ideal.  Superb construction, excellent breed type, moved like a dream, in fabulous condition and, to top it off, showed like a bomb.  Some of the ringsiders maybe didn't like him.  That's their perogative.  I'm the one making the decisions on that day - not them.  To them, the judging could have been seen as bent.  They were told what dog I'd put up and I did it.  They might not have liked it the dog so there had to be an alterior motive as to why I put it up.  And so it goes on.
Ringside judging is a very dangerous sport.  I've done it myself, as has everyone else here I would imagine.  It's not until you step into the middle of the ring that you can surprise yourself when going over a dog you thought you liked or disliked.  You feel and see things you never saw from ringside.  I know a lot of judges in the dog game.  I can tell you what most of them will like and subsequently put up.  Are they all bent?  No.  I just know the type of dog they go for. 
If all judges are bent, how do newcomers to the sport win with their dogs?  How does anyone win their first ticket?  Or make up their first Champion?  I think one has to look further than ringside gossip and sour grapes to see why a judge has made those particular decisions on the day.

Debs

Couldn't agree more Debs. I've put this argument across myself many times. I've found that it's the people who's dogs simply aren't good enough that complain the most about facey judging. We all tend to be a bit kennel blind, so of course we all think our dogs are the best there ;) 

To prove the other side. I made up my first borzoi, who was also my very first show dog (I'd done obedience up till then). He won a champ show group too - owned/handled by a complete unknown. I was lucky he was a fabulous dog, he won despite my many mistakes when he was younger (like entering him in open at 14months old!!). The whole time I was showing him people were complaining about how facey the judging is because their dog never won. How could it be if I wasn't a face and done ok. My dogs breeder wasn't particularly well known, he had a famous sire but a fair proportion of the dogs in his classes had the same sire. I never let anyone else handle him - he was simply the best dog there on the day and won. Being new to showing I entered under everybody and there were judges that didn't put him up because he wasn't their type. I wrote it all down in his show record book and never entered under them again.

Yes it can be facey etc but is definatley not ALL the time. If your dog is good enough it will WIN, no matter who is on the end of the lead. Thankfully in my breed it's pretty fair and I have made some great friends aswell. Yes you'll always get people moaning and bitching - don't people do that in every sport??? Also you need to be able to pull your dog pieces and realise what faults it has and show them off to your best. Classic example very good friends got the CC, BOB & HG4 at SWKA on Thursday it was wonderful his first CC has 2 RCC'S a super dog handle by an unknown just proves it's not all bend. I have been showing for just over 2 years now and both my dogs have a RCC each my young lad who I have only had 3 months got his JW very quickly then a RCC! I'm a nobody, and he is a good dog I couldn't be more proud. I like Tigger2 I will give all judges a go and if they don't like my dogs type I won't enter again.

One more point I would like to add.
The 'Top Breeders & Exhibitors' also have the most experience in being able to pick the best in their litters(they don't always get it right though), to use the best suited stud dog for their bitch, the knowledge on how to handle their dog to look at its best and maybe disguise minor faults by clever handling(this is not cheating it is making the most of your dog, which anyone can learn)
Stop making excuses for not winning, accept the defeats like a sporting competitor, learn as much about your breed standard as you can, view your dog honestly(not through rose tinted glasses as some do) ask questions,listen to those with the experience.
Over the years I have seen so many 'experts' after two or three years showing experience, you never stop learning even after 30+ years.
Yes there will always be a few who are a bit facey, that is more often through ignorance than dishonesty.
I can honestly say that on only 3 occasions have I been on the wrong end of 'face judging', an a couple of times really bad sportsmanship by other exhibitors. But that is another story!
To emphasise the point, One of my Junior handlers has just made his dog a Champion, at 13yrs old he trained and hanled his dog from a puppy( a very mischevious one). I could not be more proud if he was my own. WELL DONE Dom!!

I am new to showing, and have a prolific breed, and am dreading it to be honest, partly as I don't want to looka numpty, and partly as I feel I may not get anywhere due to faciness. However, my dogs are mainly pets, and although I take showing and my breed seriously, it is all just fun for me. t does costa  lott o enter shows though and I can see why peopel get angry if they don't feelt he judging has been fair. I am sure with some it is sour grapes, but not always.

I have shown my horses to a high level, and at least they acknowledge that the professionals have the advantage, whether that is due to their experience or their face, and therefore have seperate ameteur and home produced classes to give the avergae Joe with a very good horse a chance.

> Couldn't agree more Debs. I've put this argument across myself many times. I've found that it's the people who's dogs simply aren't good enough that complain the most about facey judging. We all tend to be a bit kennel blind, so of course we all think our dogs are the best there ;-)

I've had some ring success over the past 20 years but I'd say certain cliques amongst the judging fraternity are facey, no doubt about it and it's not sour grapes on my part as I've had CC & RCC winners.

Think before we start blaming the KC for the judges we should look to ourselves as it is the breed clubs and the members of those breed clubs that decide who ultimately become the breeds judges.

So perhaps we should ask ourselves how much time do we give to our breed clubs, when did we last agree to do the club a service, when did we last steward, when did we last write to the committee praising or pointing out a problem with a judge on our clubs breed judging lists. When did we last attend an AGM and when did we offer something constructive to the proceedings.

Also we should remember that most judges give of their time at there own expense and to read something like the OP does, to put it mildly, make one wonder why they bothers, it is also these despised judges who give up their weekend to organise and run shows for the benefit of others so until you do the same do you really have the right to demand that something is done when you have made no attempted to do something about it your self.

If you really have proof of a judge being crooked, inadequate or rude then make a complaint but do not think there is anything in the rules and regs. that says a judges should perform the way you would like, it is, on the day, up to the judge which dogs do the winning, you may not agree but that does not make the judge bent or part of some conspiracy. Please do not make statements that there are no honest judges, there may be bad judges, there may be inadequate judges and I dare say there may be a few who can be swayed but most do their honest best, in their own time and at their own cost.

Jckson . i hope  you aren't  too put off ,  go out and show your dog and enjoy.

WOW I am defo in the wrong breed then.  What breed are you all in as you all seem to have a positive spin on it all.  Mine is no way sour grapes, I have taken CC's, Groups, JW, BIS and several 1sts and Crufts over the years.  Plus I dont show now so it doesnt really bother me in that respect.  I have judged my breed before and handled for a few people/breeders.  I dont mean this thread to put any newcomers off showing but to be aware it does go on, and from my experience in my breed I would say only 10% of judges are fair and know what they are doing.  Let me answer a few comments to move the discussion on so people can see it from both sides of the coin.

"Are they all bent?  No.  I just know the type of dog they go for."

In my breed the line up is often any variey, all shapes and sizes and no consistency in judging - apart from the fact the faces in the line up are either judging that year or the next year or are close friends of judge or have bought a dog from them or used their sire etc etc.


"If all judges are bent, how do newcomers to the sport win with their dogs?"

This does not happen in my breed unless the breeder takes the dog in.  I have lost count of the newcomers over the years, they dont stay because they are not daft enough to part with their money once they see what really happens.  I have seen newcomers with cracking dogs binned and inferior dogs placed because a face handled them.  Our numbers are dwindling and it is not because of the fuel prices and credit crunch as come people would say, we just dont have the new people coming in and handling dogs themselves - which is a big shame.

How does anyone win their first ticket?  Or make up their first Champion?

Has not happened in my breed in years and alot of the Champions that have been made up are in my eyes Cheque Book Champions or made up because of a favour here and there or because so and so is judging.  It is amazing when you really look into the politics.  I have passed my A List judging exams and know a good dog when I see one, I also know a poor dog when I see one it is really makes my blood boil to see them get CC's when they dont deserve them.

Tigger I assure you my dogs are not the worst and that is why I am complaining, i have won alot over the years and I have 2 poor quality dogs that I do not show because they are not good enough.  If I had crap I wouldnt take it in.  I know a good dog having been in my breed for over 20 years but for me my breeding is not my business or be all and end all.  I have often taken 2nds and 3rds behind superb dogs and I take my place gratefully, it is when I am placed behind a dog that should not even be in the ring that I moan about, for me a poor dog might aswell have 8 legs - it is sometimes that obvious!  Alot of people wont moan because they are new or have not got the experience to know when a poor dog has been placed over a quality animal.  I appreciate certain judges like certain types but you know not to go under a judge if they might not like your type.  A good judge has consistency in a line up and you can see where they are going with their decisions not 3 inches over standard and 1 inch under standard in a line up - it looks terrible.

I know all of my dogs faults and I admit them, I have laughed why my older bitch got a write up saying "lovely dark eye" when she has the lightest eyes in the world.  Another bitch got "deepest tan and markings" no they were very light!  I have also had "Untidy ear carridge" which was true - he still got BIS.  A judges crit should be good and bad but all you see nowadays in good,.  All dogs have faults.  Ive seen dogs take CC's with broken toplines - a no no in my breed.  White flashes in my breed is a no no yet I have seen dogs with obvious white flashes been placed.  Would you give a CC to a white GSD or a long haired GSD?  No it is an obvious fault!  As are alot of the traits that 'get overlooked' by "some incompetant judges"

I agree with Nova yes I mentiond the KC but we should look at our breed clubs.  However they often put up 'friends' for judging shows and committe members look 'shocked' when their own dog takes BIS.  Committee members should not be allowed to enter at their own shows in my opinion.  Last year I saw an awful bitch take BIS, the judge owned the sire and the owners were on the committe - shameful!

One person complaining will not work, it will exclude them from showing, it needs more than 1 person but most wont complain as they realise it wont do them any good and most have a life outside showing.  If it was everyones BUSINESS financially then I know it would change.

The lady who wrote into our dogs weeks ago spoke the truth but it will never change.  Her letter made sense but what is the point in replying?

I know a CH judge who is in his 80's.  He told me "well thats what it was like in my day - we had to serve our time".  It is something that has been passed own the generations and wont change even though it should.

Look at the gossip at Crufts this year about the Utility winnner who was supposed to win, we all knew what breed they were referring to.  But because of the publicity it couldnt happen.  My friends daughter won the group instead - YAY. 

You soon know the bent ones from the fair.  The fair get high entries for starters.  The bent will place their friends highly, also place dogs out of their sires (if not they are condeming their own breeding), Also a trend I have noticed if a certain judge has given CC's at a certain show, they recommend their friends to do the CC's the following year.  Lo and behold they get their next Champion.

I for one have hand on heart heard and seen things 1st hand not just gossip so I know it does go on.  It really isnt sour grapes for me.  I really do believe if it was a fair game the entries would soar and this could only benefit the hobby and our breeds.  I have heard all rounders ask certain breeders where their dog was the day the all rounder judged as they would have given them the CC - the breeders dog was there just handled by someone who the judge wouldnt know!!!!  Speaks Volumes!  The dog got binned!

If your breed is not as bent as mine you are VERY lucky and you should keep showing if you stand a fair chance.  Mine is a disgrace at the moment.  Funnily enough I do think our judge tomorrow at South Wales will do their own thing.  So I am not anti judge and think all are bent - just the majority.  I do have an idea for the Dog CC but have not heard anything on the jungle drums so fair judges do exist - we need more of them!

> I've put this argument across myself many times. I've found that it's the people who's dogs simply aren't good enough that complain the most about facey judging. We all tend to be a bit kennel blind, so of course we all think our dogs are the best there

Tigger2:
I agree wholeheartedly.

To the OP: I'm afraid that I've heard this old story many, many times over a 30 year period and just like Tigger2 I've noticed that it's very often told by bitter, unsuccessful exhibitors.
A little story for you...I'm relatively new to a breed approx 6 years (been in another for many years) and have, up until now, only shown this breed very sparingly. I don't know many people in the breed, have no judges in my pocket and don't give CCs in this breed. This breed has massive entries (MP bitch often over 30) with several well established kennels competing at every show. With very limited showing all my dogs have qualified for Crufts, Best puppy awards and a RCC. All this in the last 12 months. I have never spoken to any of these judges in my life before and I have nothing to offer them. I do however, have an eye for a dog in that I am able to look at my own stock objectively and truly see their faults. I can also follow the pattern of most judges and see what they are looking for. Sometimes that's totally off the wall but heh no one needs to be clever to be asked to judge. It is a fact that some people are totally useless at some things so why shoudn't
it be the case here?
It is perhaps a little paranoid to say that there is a giant conspiracy going on when there are loads of new people coming into the showing game and winning at the highest level. Yes there are many moaners and bitchers at the ringside,often newcomers who are convinced that their dogs is fabulous when patently they are not.
These poor souls are usually being stirred up by tales such as yours.
Recently I watched a dog winning the ticket at his first and only show so far (not a puppy), owned by a champ show judge and all the talk was about it being a fore-gone conclusion...but he was fabulous and no one could say other wise.

WOW you are brave.
I don't show anymore.
Things will never change.
I think it is bent.
Mine isn't sour grapes either.

Thanks Toolz for your comments but as I have tried to put across in my post (which you may have missed) things are different in my breed.  I am saying it is not sour grape for me.  How can it be when I have won what I have.

Infact I find your post somewhat onesided.  I have tried to see it from both sides but you only see it from your side.  I am by no way an unsucesfull exibitor or breeder quite the opposite!!

If you have been showing for 30+ years maybe you are a bit biased as it is something you have had to put up with over the years.   "I have discovered that people who complain are seen as bitter, jealous and not succesfull" - for me this is not the case and as I dont show anymore I couldnt care less who wins but I wanted it known what does go on and showing is political and bent and not always fair, maybe I am one of the few involved who dare to speak out?  Being experienced in one breed does help in another breed, we do have all rounder judges you know.  For you to suggest someone who thinks showing is bent is paranoid, well that is deluded!  If you have shown for over 30 years then maybe you are protecting something you know goes on by saying I am stiring up things by telling tales.  I did say in my earlier post that maybe I was in the wrong breed and tried to be fair and see it from a different point of view but you have totally disrespected my opinion saying I am wrong.

Mind you if I had been showing for 30 years and had put up with it for so long I would probably be the same.   Open you eyes and see the bigger picture, showing is political and not all fair, if you think it is 100% honest then you are living in a dream world.

I would love to see someone point out a newcomer in my breed winning CC's handled by themselves - mind you pigs might fly!

Toolz are you one of these 'bent people' who dont like someone speaking out against what is wrong with showing?  Come and sit my my ring and watch CH show judges throw thier RCC awards in the bin bcause they dont agree with it, or throw their 1sts at the poor secretary sat at the table.

I am sure all owners think their dogs are fabulous as you say but come on, judges all have types and preferences when judging and sadly some of those preferences are faces and politics not dogs. 

> Mind you if I had been showing for 30 years and had put up with it for so long I would probably be the same.

You have been showing for at least 2/3rds as long so why have you put up with it?  I am not at all sure why you have started this discussion as you have clearly already established your view but you are obviously not going to change the view of people whose own experiences are totally different.

> Toolz are you one of these 'bent people' who dont like someone speaking out against what is wrong with showing

Are you one of those people who think that the Lizard People are invading our planet?

I must admit i have seen some very poor losers from top kennels rip up their RCC and throw it at the judge , one inperticular swearing at the judge telling him that he should have had his favour back by getting the CC.
Another time again top kennel people not getting placed walking out of the ring calling the judge a c**t at the top of his voice for the world to hear.
Also noticed over the last few years that the same judges are judging every year and giving the awards to the same kennels every year whatever dog is on the end of the lead good or crap.

It does look sewn up sometimes.

Again i have won well with my dogs CC's, RCC's and BOB, been in the two breeds many years but some of the shows are quite predictable.

Peanuts

Of course I might have known on here my views would be in the minority.  I didnt come on here to be attacked Isabel as obviously my 20 years is not worthy as 30 years.

I was mainly trying to provoke a discussion and get different view points and to get people to see the bigger picture.  I have clearly established my thoughts on showing?  Cant you read? Of course it wont change people who are different I just wanted people to think of the other side for gods sake and maybe realise that people who moan about bent showing are not moaning because they are jealous and bitter!!! People should realise politics are at play in showing and I am sure if you read the canine press often enough and spoke to people who show you will see this.  To be quite honest I think people who moan are fed up of moaning because it falls on deaf ears year year after year people complain - hello there is a reason!!

There is no need to be such a bully when replying to my post!  You could have reworded your post differently.

Editied to add as I am new I am no doubt going to be attacked by the usual clique - chill out and open your mind to another perspective, if it was something you agreed with you would back it.

thank you peanuts for riterating what I have said - you have said it better then I could have said it....judges do put up their friends for the next show and get CC's and then it swaps again, they only have to be in a click of 3 and husbands and wifes do the favours and vise versa - if people cant see this they need HUGE glasses!

Husband and Wife teams will always do better (or couples or partners) go on prove me wrong!

I'm sure there are sore losers and bad sportsmen about, Peanuts, but a "top kennel" losing out like that does not show things are sewn up, quite the opposite :-)

> I didnt come on here to be attacked Isabel as obviously my 20 years is not worthy as 30 years.
>

That is not what I said at all, quite the opposite, I was saying that as it was pretty nearly the same it was a wonder you were still sticking at it.

Isabel what did you mean by your post?

I did say I dont show anymore so I dont have sour grapes

Havent shown for a year since Crufts 2007 taking 2 1sts but is still annoys me as I can see bent judging from the results.

If I could bet on some results I would be loaded.

Any exhibitor throwing an award in the bin or disrespecting the judge is unacceptable but some people are allowed to get away with it, they should be struck off the judging list in my eyes and not be allowed to judge for 12 months - it is disgusting behaviour from men and women in their 40's and 50's and at any age?  Would a teenager be allowed to get away with it?  No but Ch show judges can!

If you are going to accuse people of bullying you I think I will just leave you to just post away on your own as to why you no longer show anymore.

Isabel read your inital reply to me, can you see how that could be seen as bullying?

This was your reply:

You have been showing for at least 2/3rds as long so why have you put up with it?  I am not at all sure why you have started this discussion as you have clearly already established your view but you are obviously not going to change the view of people whose own experiences are totally different.

You said you are not sure why i started discussion?  and of course you picked up on the 2/3rds time period!  My discussion was to make people aware.  Do you show? 

Dont be so niaive and try and turn your reply back on me.

At least 2/3rds.  If I was belittling it I would have said barely 2/3rd. 
Please don't extend your dissatisfaction with the world even further than it is at present.  It is all rather pointless and I doubt it will bring you any happiness.

> Again i have won well with my dogs CC's, RCC's and BOB, been in the two breeds many years but some of the shows are quite predictable.
>

So you can't only think that the judges who gave you these awards are fair and honest? You must realise that when you were being given these awards many people were moaning that you must 'have known something' and that the judging was fixed and predictable.
No respondent so far has implied that all judges are fair, competent or indeed have the intelligence and confidence to do the right thing. .My idea of 'the right thing' will be different from yours and yours from the next poster..... that's how dog shows work surely? If it weren't then the same dogs would win every single time and their awards would be posted out to them, shows would pack up and we could all take up knitting.
I too have seen bad sportsmanship in dog showing, then I've seen rude and angry people in many walks of life - in fact I found pony showing very abusive. One only has to upset someone in their car these days to get a disgusting mouthful so why should dog showing be any different.

In any walk of life be it hobby work sport where their is manmade competition there will be calls of corruption and cheating back handers and favouritism it is human nature, some will be true, some will be down to bad losers. Nothing will change so long as the human element is involved. So we pay our money and take our chances in the hope that today it is our turn. However at the end of the day if it isnt I curl up with my no hoper looking at me adoringly and thats what matters and if I ever feel the need to cry from the roof tops unjust then I hope thats when I call it a day walk away and find something better to do with my time.

> Editied to add as I am new I am no doubt going to be attacked by the usual clique

So it's not just in the showring that we're dishonest? We are now members of a clique. The people replying to this thread probably don't even know each other and I have certainly never met a single one of them.
You might want to talk to someone about these destructive thoughts.

Destrctive thoughts?  Oh Yawn!  I mjst book in and see my psychiatrist

Satincollie you have an excellent point.  Man made competition will breed corrupution atc and like me you take the best dog home with or without a title, I mean who cares about a dog they meet on the street being a Champion?  Its either cute or not!!!

> I must admit i have seen some very poor losers from top kennels rip up their RCC and throw it at the judge , one inperticular swearing at the judge telling him that he should have had his favour back by getting the CC.
> Another time again top kennel people not getting placed walking out of the ring calling the judge a c**t at the top of his voice for the world to hear.
>

And you stood there and watched this happen?  Then did absolutely nothing about it?   Why didn't you do anything?  Why didn't you report them for bringing the sport into disrepute?  The KC will come down hard on ANYONE who acts this way - regardless of who they are.  If you're not prepared to do anything about such behaviour then you're basically condoning it by your inaction.

Debs

Wow K9queen, you do seem to have got yourself in a bit of state over this don't you! 

In one post you're saying that you came here to get different viewpoints - and yet when those viewpoints don't match your own you acuse people of being 'bent', 'naive', 'bullying' and telling us we're all in 'cliques'.  You have totally misinterpreted Isabel's post.  What she was saying was that 20 years was a long time to put up with something that you think is so corrupt and she wonders why you did it for that long. Yet you immediately took it as an attack!  I can understand that you're passionate about what you believe, but maybe you should try and get rid of some of your anger before posting next time. 

I don't know what breed you used to show, but in mine we have a fair few exhibitors new to showing - in the last year one won their first CC and at least two RCCs, one has taken two RCCs (including the RCC at Crufts) and the third has taken a RCC - all three were owner/handled.  None of these people judge - even at Open show level and none have even owned the breed for more than three years.  Another exhibitor (who has only been in the breed five years) made up two dogs out of their litter (one of whom is owned and handled by yet another newcomer) and won their first Ch show Group this year.  She doesn't judge either!  How can that happen in such a corrupt game?

Debs

K9queen, what breed are you in? I'm definatley coming to watch your breed if it is the same day as me at a champ show. I have never ever seen an exhibitor tear up a RCC or give back cards or swear at the judge in my breed that would cause an major outcry. That is totally unacceptable and they should be reported very unsporting! At the end of the day ALL judges like different things and if all the judges liked the same dog that would be the only dog winning how boring would that be!!!!!

Quote from OP's previous post  "I used to have Dobermanns and Ridgebacks and used to show and breed successfully (dobies) and now have toy dogs"

> Man made competition will breed corrupution

Not quite my slant on things but I am sure you will continue to read into posts what you want :)

> would make wonderfuk politiciasns

(Appologies K9Queen a little tension breaker I hope)

But did no one else spot the brilliant spelling mistake.. There is a lot of sleaze stories in the papers but does this make them wonderfuks or just carelessfuks??
*ROFL*
:-D
couldnt resist!!

I was really looking forward to having a go at showing my new pup when i get him, but i have read some really negative stuff on showing and i must admit i am a bit put off :( i imagine there's good and bad in most things in life, but i would hope i had a good chance as anyone, if my dog was good enough to get placed....but oh well there's next time if i didn't, and of course i will always take the best dog home. :)
I don't want to breed, i just want a hobby me and my dog could both enjoy...... hopefully!! :) 

dexter go out and enjoy.  you will meet and make some nice new friends.

Dexter:
I do hope that you have a great time showing your dog and with an attitude like yours, I'm sure you will.
I've made some of my longest and closest friends through dogs and contrary to what you may read, many people do treat this as an enjoyable hobby not a dark, sinister drama.
Take a picnic and an open mind and have a lovely relaxing day out with like minded people - just watching hundreds of lovely dogs...bliss   ... you'll love it.
If you have one, take your OH to people watch... it's nearly as much fun. :-)

I don't really see dog showing as a whole being bent...

It is difficult to be new in a breed going to shows, I've only been "in" my breed for the last 4 years, but I've been to a few shows, open, champ, breed.....

I like to think that there's a reason the people with the big kennels have more success - it's because they are experienced! They breed what they know will do well, and if they are not the people in the ring, it may well be another newbie with a dog from their kennel....

so to say judging is too "facey" is incorrect. Maybe my breed is not so large that the many entrants can be confused, and the judges look at who is on the other end of the lead?? I don't know. I do know that the reason I haven't been more successful myself is because my dogs aren;t as good as the dogs that place. And it's as simple as that.

Maybe in a few years time I will have more experience myself in the shows, I will know how to show my dogs to their best, and then I will perhaps gain some recognition, but if not? Then at least I hope I will at least carry on enjoying the showing and socialising, because I think that should always be the main motivation behind what we do?????

so maybe those who are disillusioned should just take a step back, take a break for a while and guage the dogs that are succeeding, and then go at it again with a second wind.....

Enjoy!!!

:)

Have to say that new people do get a chance in my breed. Someone, who has become a very good friend, bought a pup from me about 2 years ago and decided at the time she was going to try showing has just won her first CC at SWKC today. She is certainly a new face in my breed, although not new to the breed.

Showing can be lots of fun and great friends can be made in the process 

I do believe that "face judging"  goes on but not all judges are corrupt, for want of a better word.

But it is my experience that judges will not only pick faces but sometimes pick the people they 'think' should win because they don't have the confidence to pick the best dog.  I agree that sometimes it is possible to predict the dog the judge will like but I have personally experienced the situation several times where I have not done so well because I am not 'known' and have come out of the ring with people I have never met saying 'you were robbed' and similar such comments.  I still show at all levels because I ENJOY it - even if I don't do as well as I would like or think I should have done sometimes.  But in the end you either except the practice goes on with some judges or you bow out.  I am now at the point that I have gone back to doing more companion shows and treating it just as a family day out, taking our dogs that we don't show seriously as well.

Ok 50/50 roughly on debate, if you have a fair breed you are very lucky.  I apologise for my spelling mistakes, sometimes I cant think as fast as I type.  It is a topic that we will never agree on as a whole.  I must add my BOB's were at open shows! LOL  As were my BIS.  I agree some judges are not all facey they just dont have a clue. 

Just for the record I know of an all round CH show judge who after judging asked another CH show judge where they dobe was andf if it was entered under him he would have given it the CC.  The dog was entered under so called judge just had different handler on day.  SPEAK VOLUMES EH?

Soli reporting a well known person/judge for ripping up an RCC will not get you anywhere. The people in charge darent say anything. If they were told off they wouldnt post awful comments on their websites after being binned but they do and they still get ch show judging appts.  They can carry on as they like but anyone else would be KC'd. 

Anyway it has gone on for years and wont change but I do think people need to be aware.

All this "you must serve your time" crap is a load of rubbish, you either have a good dog or not.  It shouldnt matter if you have been showing 2 years or 12 years.  But it does.  If a judge is incompetant and canot judge properly they should be struck off.  I judged recently at an open show and gave RBOB to someone whos bitch was bred by the top breeder.  Needless to say breeder hasnt spoke to me since.  Also got someone booked puppy from me later in year who initially enquired to top breeder, other breeder hasnt spoken to me or person sice breeder found out they were buying pup from me.  LOL

> I like to think that there's a reason the people with the big kennels have more success - it's because they are experienced!

I agree DEARLADY but to add to this, when they attend a show they have had loads of puppies to choose from (rightly or wrongly either from their own litters or studs) so it's a bit like them having more raffle tickets than the owner who bought in one dog (which may not even be the pick of it's litter)or someones puppy from their only litter that year. And that happens year in year out through the lifetime of your one dog.

I agree also with the other poster who says it's lack of confidence why some judges go for the 'big name' - they assume that they will have a good one and don't want to look a fool. As I've already said, intelligence has never been a criteria for being selected to judge.

Hmm this is quite a difficult one really. 

I definately believe that some breeds are easier than others.  I have tried two other breeds and found them really hard to break in to HOWEVER I will admit my mini is not the greatest and my beagle was not a particularly feminine example so maybe had they been very good examples of the breed the fact we were new might have meant we were not overlooked. 

However my main breed I feel in general is fair.

I got BPIS at a breed club show at our first ever dog show this dog then went on to become a champion.  My 14 year old daughter has also made up a champion as well with both breed judges and all rounders. 

I do agree though there are definately some tickets that are pre judged and I do find it amazing that when a judge is going to be judging their dogs suddenly have a flurry of success however in general I think it is relatively fair at the grass roots however with the higher levels I do know it is slightly more corupt but as I am never likely to get that far I try not to let it get to me :)

However I do also think the size of the entry reflects the publics opinion of the judge.  There is a judge who is judging east of england which is 30 mins from me and I could not bring myself to enter so am doing the stakes classes. ;)

As a 'new' person to showing, that's the description given to me by the old-timers, I found this to be an interesting thread.  I've been showing four years.  Granted, it's not a long time, but it's not wet behind the ears either.

We have a fabulous bitch.  It's not our opinion, it's the opinion of some honest breeders not connected with our breeder, some impartial judges, ringcraft judges, and others in the breed for 30-40 years.  I have been told that if I let people who are 'faces' handle her she would be a champion.  She would have been made one in her first year instead of still waiting for her first ticket.  She has several RCCs but not the magic first ticket.
Why can bitches and dogs for that matter, who have hip scores off the charts, who can barely make it around the ring be made into champions?  How is that allowed?
Our breed is supposed to be big on movement.

I watched judging not too long ago where the judge was a breed specialist.  In one class there was a breeder showing their bred puppy  and a litter mate shown by the owner.  The owner handler puppy was fabulous, perfect balance, sound movement, good top line, wonderful arch of neck, very striking - and it looked correct for the class, a puppy.  The breeder handled pup was not as striking.  The look was more of a tiny tot dressed up for a beauty competition.  A nice pup, but there were faults - tail, movement.  The judge looked at the line, started to indicate the owner handled pup, looked at the breeder handled, back to the owner handled, to the breeder again, and then indicated the breeder to take first place.
Why not have the gumption to place the way the judge originally intended?

I can not for the life of me figure out why my bitch should be penalized for being owned by a 'newcomer'.  If she meets the breed standard in all ways, she moves well (and she does!), she shows well, why is she ignored?  Her critiques have been glowing.
Is it because she isn't from one of the kennels in the breed?  Even after four years I'm not established as an exhibitor?  What?

Honestly, if she was rubbish I could understand and could accept.  But to be penalized just because we are nobodies to the breeders and exhibitors and judges is a bit much.
We pay our money to enter, we spend the time grooming and practicing, driving and lugging, just like every one else.  I suppose I am naive enough to think it's supposed to be down to the dog on the day.  Perhaps in a perfect world.

Okay, off my soapbox now.

We have a fabulous bitch.  It's not our opinion, it's the opinion of some honest breeders not connected with our breeder, some impartial judges, ringcraft judges, and others in the breed for 30-40 years.

That may well be true but against the bitch ticket winner on the day maybe they had the edge? It's all well in good saying if she was owned by a big breeder she would have been made in her first year, how do you really know that? Have you put your hands on these bitches that have the CC over yours? How do really know unless you are in the ring judging them, watching the movement and having your hands on them throughly going over them?

I'm all for bigging up your dog but at the end of the day but EVERY dog has faults maybe your missing one on yours which may penalise her against the CC winner and thats why she gets the RCC. Who knows! Your girl sounds lovely and you should be very very proud of what she has achieved in 4 years it's what some people dream of. Someone in my breed recently won her first CC after 20 years in the breed, not ever even winning a RCC! I have been showing for just over two years and both mine dogs have RCC's and my lad his JW, I couldn't be more proud of them I feel very privledged to own and show them and never ever expect to achieve what I have in the short time I have been showing.

I don't know what breed you are in, mine in pretty fair most of the time and if your dog is good enough it will win. Your breed might be different so can see your frustration.

Keep campaining her I'm sure that CC isn't far off, good luck.