Hi, I have a question, please.  According to the results page for 3 Counties in one of the Gundog breeds, a judge withheld 1st place but gave the only dog in it's class 2nd place instead.

I wasn't there, and it could be an error in the results listing but assuming the report is accurate; is this OK?

I'm still trying to keep up with the rules but my understanding is that if a judge witholds any place due to lack of merit then no further awards can be given. ie if you cannot find a dog of sufficient quality for 3rd then only 1st and 2nd will be given.  Presumably if he was the only dog in his class then, even with the 2nd he was given, he can be deemed to have 'won' anyway.  He will also have qualified for Crufts too, if he hasn't already done so.  In this particular scenario what was the point of withholding 1st? 

Yes this can be done if the judge doesn't feel that they are worthy of a first place, thus not allowing them to compete in best in sex.

Surprising a judge at our group open show withheld a first place, it is a bit unusual at an open show and caught me on the hop as I had only given the steward a first card and rosette. Poor chap had to stand in the ring whilst I remembered where I had put the spares.

> thus not allowing them to compete in best in sex.

Moot point as they are an unbeaten dog they could challenge for BOS or BP unless the judge chooses only to call in those who won a first.

Would be interesting if they were the only exhibit in a breed or the only puppy as the judge would have to award the BOB or the BP even if they withheld all the placings.

You can withhold 1st and 2nd place and make lower awards, but if you withhold 3rd place you cannot place Reserve (4th) or VHC (5th).

Not sure which breed and which Stud Book Band you are in, but could the 1st place have been withheld to avoid giving a stud book qualification, perhaps? For example, my breed is Band D - 1st-3rd in Limit qualify for Crufts for the next year, but only the 1st place qualifies for a SBN. Would this apply?

M.

Thanks for all the information - I find some of the rules aspects fascinating.

It was a breed without CC's and with just Puppy, Junior, PG and Open classes I think.

Whilst all the replies are true, Three Counties results aren't necessarily accurate :-)  A St Bernard bitch won 1st in Post Grad yesterday....in the Siberian Husky classes lol.  So they may just have missed first place!

Yes, with Sarah here -the 3 counties result are a shambles (as usual with that site sadly) -they have listed a lot of awards as being withheld when they were not, and as ALWAYS they have listed CCs as having been awarded for every breed including all those that did not have them. They even do this for breeds that haven't GOT championship status.  I know a few people are making formal complaints about it this year. So do take it all with a large pinch of salt!!

The results are probably wrong anyway as the results across all breeds have some major mistakes in them.  I was listed as 1st for a day or two , a coupld of weeks ago and I was 2nd..:-)

I think Nova's judge must have been very petty to withhold 1st out of 1 at an open show! I always worry in case they do when it happens to me, but so far it hasn't happened. Not even when my not really show quality Yankee was the only one there and got BOB! (no critique yet though, grr). I remember once at a Champ show the judge withheld 1st and 2nd in a Cavalier bitch class, there was absolute uproar - I suppose he thought only one dog good enough to qualify for Crufts!

>I remember once at a Champ show the judge withheld 1st and 2nd in a Cavalier bitch class, there was absolute uproar - I suppose he thought only one dog good enough to qualify for Crufts!

I think more should do this, its surprising the amount of people that go up to Scotland just to qualify for crufts/get stud book numbers because the class numbers are so much smaller there.

> I think Nova's judge must have been very petty to withhold 1st out of 1 at an open show!

Well it is their right and if he really thought the dog lacked type then I admire his courage, for it must take courage.

Do think the rules are a bit strange though, if only one dog is entered in the classes for a breed the judge can withhold places 1,2 & 3, which means that there are no places given at all but the judge still has to declare a BOB.

The KC gives discretion to the judge (correctly in my mind) to withhold if a dog is unworthy of a place but then insists that BOB must be awarded. It does means, when you think about it, that in the class the judge is called upon to judge the dogs in breed classes against the standard and withhold if in their opinion it does not come near enough to the standard to warrant an award.

But when it comes to awarding BOB etc. the judge is required to judge by some other means as if one dog is present then it must be awarded BOB, one assumes if two unplaced dogs are present the judge will have to decide between the two which is least offensive and award that BOB and have the embarrassment of sending it forward to group or BIS attached, as it were, to the credibility of the breed judge.

Perhaps one day a judge will decide that they will not award BOB because the only dog present so lacked type the judge was not convinced that the exhibit was of the breed being judged.

We had an incident recently in our breed, where there was just one entry (never known this before!)  in the Open class; a repeat entry of a minor puppy.  She had not been placed in the Minor pup class so I think everyone was expecting her to be given Reserve in Open.  But the judge awarded her 1st place and consequently she now has her SBN. 
In what is a numerically very strong breed with a lot of quality dogs or bitches never gaining their SBN, I think a lot of people were very shocked that the places were not withheld.  I would have liked to have seen the judge have the courage to withold in this instance.

Agree Logan, totally illogical, the judge could have withheld and explained to the exhibitor that the pup would need to mature further before they would be comfortable giving an award that would give the dog a SBN and a place at Crufts.

That is exactly my thinking. 
I always think the same when a minor puppy is awarded the CC too. 

Do think that in some breeds giving the puppy the CC may be acceptable, if the judge has the experience of the breed and the knowledge to see into the future and is prepared to state that in their opinion the dog is worthy of becoming a champion then so be it. I have not been in that position, but if I really thought that was the way to go then if I was sure about a particular pup I would go ahead. Must say, for me, I think the pups and juniors the most difficult to judge as I am never sure how they will progress some already beautiful may develop over their best by the time they are mature and other ugly unbalanced babies turn into beautiful adults that lasts into their old age.

I definitely think a CC should be given to a pup if it is worthy of such an award.  Have to admit I've seen pups in the past which I have felt were the best example of a breed at shows and been upset when they've not been given the top honours.  Many people seem to scared to give a puppy the top accolade, don't know why.

> I think more should do this, its surprising the amount of people that go up to Scotland just to qualify for crufts/get stud book numbers because the class numbers are so much smaller there.

I agree Claire.   The judge for Munsters at SKC withheld this year & it wasn't that well received.  At cat shows, withholding happens so frequently and we say nothing, just shrug our shoulders and get on with it!

Just my opinion that with a minor pup, (not so much a puppy class) that it is almost impossible to tell what they will develop into as an adult.  I have seen lots of very mature and finished dogs in the minor puppy classes that are just so heavy and over done by the time they are fully mature that they are not even considered for a place.  Maybe it is just the breed I am in, but I think there is absolutely no reason to be giving a CC to a minor puppy as the finished article in 2 years time may leave a lot to be desired.  We also have such big entries that there are always a lot of very high quality dogs that sometimes in the Limit and Open classes there are several deserving of the ticket. 
I'm not very good at expressing myself sometimes, so hope that has come across as I intended! 

In fairness though, a judge is meant to judge the dog on the day. If they think the minor puppy is the best and meets the standard on the day, they can't be expected to have a crystal ball and know what it will look like in 6 months, just as they shouldn't give top honours to a dog that was lame on the day but has moved well all season.

M.

I think the example you use is very different though - I would never expect that to happen. 
This is clearly one that splits people down the middle, but I know that it is not well thought of in our breed. 

> If they think the minor puppy is the best and meets the standard on the day,

The thing with puppies is if they do fit the standard they may not be very good puppies if you see what I mean, pups should not look like small adults or in some cases large adults. If you are experienced enough to know that leggy pup will really make a champion when adult and there really is not another dog that already has championship quality then you will award the pup, but it can't happen very often.

Oh, I couldn't agree more with the concept of what you say - mine is a breed where very 'finished' puppies often disappear entirely by 18 months. However, the fact remains that judge can only evaluate what they see, not what the dog may be in the future.

One major all-rounder often seems to give major awards to puppies.

M.

> One major all-rounder often seems to give major awards to puppies.
>
>

Oooooooooooooooooo how many guesses can I have on that one?    ;-)   AB?

LOL. He does seem to make rather a habit of it, doesn't he?

M.

The current Breed record holder in Boxers started winning green cards as a puppy as did the Breed record holder before her. 53 other judges agreed with them.
Not a common occurence but an outstanding one will stand out to an experienced breeder who understands development and life stages of their breed. The pup would have to be just right for it's age.

> Not a common occurence but an outstanding one will stand out to an experienced breeder who understands development and life stages of their breed. The pup would have to be just right for it's age.

You have said just what I meant but so much better than I did.

> He does seem to make rather a habit of it, doesn't he?
>

A gentleman fitting your description awarded BP and BIS at an open show to a young, very ordinary, over-built boxer I had sold as a pet, he then proceeded to try and buy said pup from it's doting owners with no luck (probably to export). How do you tell two very excited owners that it probably will never win again and that they didn't have the next 'big thing'?
And it didn't :-)

We've all seen that fluke win and the dog's never done a thing again.

Yeah we've all seen them, I've probably even had one myself :-)
but this gentleman seems to be on a mission to be the first to find 'the one' instead of getting on with assessing the merits of all the entry and placing them accordingly.IMHO

When I've stewarded at open shows and there's only been 1 entry (or 3 or whatever) I am only provided with rosettes for that number of places. So if the judge said 'I only want to award this single dog 2nd' I would be stuck with only a red rosette to give! I still think it's pretty petty at an open show, it's not like they qualify for anything by being 1st of 1 or BOB of 1. :-)

LucyDogs, if you see my earlier post that is the position I put my stewards in and it was made worse because I could not remember where I had put the spares, such is the curse of many years.

Ah, I'd misread and thought you were the ring steward without the rosette! How awful for the exhibitor having to stand there for ages while the poor ring steward and you hunted for the rosettes. I hate being only one in the class just in case they withheld! :-)

> Ah, I'd misread and thought you were the ring steward without the rosette! How awful for the exhibitor having to stand there for ages while the poor ring steward and you hunted for the rosettes. I hate being only one in the class just in case they withheld! :-)

I know, felt awful, a bit later in the day everything would have been to hand but as the show had only just started I was still clearing away the paperwork needed before the show started and had not unpacked the rest of the stuff.

I personally would never withhold. I think it shows a high degree of arrogance. The judge has one job to do, and that is to place the dogs before them in the order of merit which in his or her opinion best reflects the breed standard. It is not within the judges remit to second guess what a dog may or may not look like in a year or 2 years time. You should quite simply judge what you see before you on the day. If there is only one dog in the class then obviously that is the dog which, in that particular class, comes closest to the breed standard.

The dog has to look like its breed though. If the only dog present is a very poor specimen I think most of us would hope that the judge would withhold the placing. After all, this is a conformation show. If the dog is so badly constructed the judge should, by kennel club rules, place accordingly, or not.

Don't think it is arrogance; a dog must have breed type for you to be able to judge it against the breed standard. If the dog before you is truly lacking in the points and attributes required by the standard then you really should not place. Fortunately I have not been put in this position but if I were I hope I would be able to withhold the award and find the right words for the handler, the last thing one wishes to do is discourage someone showing their dog but it is wrong to lead them to believe the dog they have is good if it is not and how do you write an honest critique without causing pain if you can find nothing to recommend the dog at all.

Just to give an example of what happens if a judge does not withold.

A gentleman many years ago had a young dog and entered it in EVERY classs for which it was eligible, from Minor puppy to Open at both Open and Ch Shows over a period of years. Of course the age classes the dog grew out of, but NEVER got a place unless there were fewer dogs than placings, in which case he was awarded the last available award. However at one Ch Show there were only 3 dogs in the open class, one of which was his (this was an E Band breed). The dog was given a third place, which also meant it got a Stud Book Number AND Qualified for Crufts for Life.
I honestly believe the K.C. need to review the whole thing as a judge should be allowed to withold any award if the dog is not of a minimum standard, as things stand they can be a bit ambiguous.
Judging should be on each dog on the day, no one has a crystal ball to see what will happen to it in a month or more.

I guess I've just been lucky. I've never had a dog under me which was so appalling it didn't have any breed type whatsoever. I quite agree that the KC needs to review the judging criteria but we must remember that apart from companion and limit shows, dog shows ARE open to all. I would hate to see a situation where people were prevented from showing their dogs because the powers that be say they aren't good enough to be shown. As for the gentleman you speak of, what harm was he doing, it's his own money he's wasting. He may have qualified his dog for crufts for life but that doesn't mean he's going to win anything does it. Showing dogs is meant to be a fun thing. We pay a great deal of money, have a good day out and chat to our friends and if we bring home a piece of card and a rosette at the end of it then that's a bonus. It is after all just a hobby and not to be taken too seriously. I know there are some people for whom the breeding of top quality show dogs is more of a business and they consider dog shows to be a showcase for their stock, but they are hardly likely to be showing sub-standard dogs anyway. In the great scheme of things, what does it matter if somebody takes home a piece of card that some other people think they didn't deserve. It's unlikely to do the breed as a whole any damage is it. I mean, it's unlikely we're all going to flock to use a dog on our bitches just because it came third out of three and got it's stud book number.

Say if you had a puppy dog under you,  it's mouth was so wry, it was lame when it moved and it had one testicle would you feel it was a worthy specimen to award a first place too being the sole entry in your class?   

NO, well I would not I would withhold tell the handler that the dog is lame today and would suggest they see a vet about the undecented testical, unless it was a breed known for late decent in which case it would be, sorry your dog is lame today, I can not place it would you like to withdraw.

Obviously if a dog was lame I would ask the owner to withdraw. That's not the same thing as giving it a second place because I didn't think it was worthy of a first.

Not, as I said, been in this position fortunately but if I felt a dog was unworthy of a first I suspect I would not think it worthy of placing at all. But I don't know having only once seen a dog that was IMO not of good type, that was earlier in my judging career when I lacked confidence and in that case I placed it at the end of the line and spoke to the owner. Now I think I may well have withheld.

THe KC reg rule say .

F (1) 3.61
21. Judges and Judging
n. An award may be withheld if in the opinion of the Judge there is lack of sufficient merit.

The judge . who has obviouly been in the breed a fair while to be giving CCs in the first place ( if they are a breed judge that is ) must have been of the opinion that the dog concerned was in fact` OF SUFFICENT MERIT `

To think /say the judge didnt have the COURAGE to withhold , is a very nasty thing to say IMO . maybe you were jealose that you hadnt put one of yours in the class

Just how long exactly have you been in that breed ? Not half as long as the judge I bet. Would you make this kind of comment to their face I wonder 

Im sure there were other animals entered that maybe , had they been in Open , that wouldnt have been placed first .

I know of quite a few minor pups  who have won CCs at a young age be made into Champions

I feel as though the judge would have been damed if they had withheld and damed if they hadnt . a no win sitiation I feel

Bit confused Barty who are you responding to?

Also I don't know if you are in the UK but here you don't have to be in a breed to judge it even at Championship level.

I am guessing it is in response to my post.
And to be honest, I am not going to warrant it worthy of a reply

Well, guessed it could not have been me but it was not addressed, may be it was you but it does not make a lot of sense if it was.

Why not Logan , Am I right on all counts ?

Have you said to the judge in particular they they were not brave enough to with hold?

I show in a number of European Countries and under FCI rules, exhibits are all graded as they are seen and only those getting the top grading may challenge for the ticket. I have seen the ticket and Reserve withheld before because not one of the exhibits merited it, in the judges opinion. If you get graded "good" which is the third grade down, you can't even be placed even if you are the only one in the class. Judges give a critique there and then so they have to justify their decisions. European judges seem to be a lot harsher than the UK ones. I have never withheld myself but on the other side of things I recently saw a very poor specimen go BOB at an Open over some proven good dogs (JW winners) because the show secretary bred it and the judge was on the committee. What's the point? The owners are complete beginners who now think they have a flyer and will waste, in my opinion, a good deal of money by entering loads of shows and getting severly disappointed in my opinion, but time will tell on that one.

In answer to your question then the only one of our dogs that would have been eligible to enter the class already has her stud book number, so of course I would not be jealous.  Nor would I be anyway.
I know some people felt disappointed that they had struggled for a long time to gain their bitches SBN and were a little surprised to see a minor pup gain it so easily. 

I feel that you have only come on here to cause trouble and be rude, which is a shame as this was an interesting discussion.  I don't think saying we would like to see judges withold in this instance is nasty and I would say this to the judge that I thought so if I was asked - but as it is all matter of opinion and subjective; I know that they really wouldn't care or be offended. 

It is an extremely awkward situation for a judge to be put in, not one that I would ever like to face.  And it would take an extremely brave person to withold the place - in the situation at this show taking into account the previous class, I think it was perhaps the right thing to do, but can see why it was not done.  It is by no means a slur on the judges capability, as on the day I thought they did an excellent job and thoroughly enjoyed watching them judge - polite and courteous to all exhibitors. 

I am not getting into an argument about this as quite frankly it is ridiculous.