> 'She's just come in today' (Amazing that!)
> 'She's just finished'
> 'Another dog she kennels with is in season'

I have never had one come in on the day, but have twice had a bitch come in next day, though not expected that soon.

I do have a bitch that has just finished, and chose not to take her, but could have.

I took her mother who is a spayed Veteran and had quite a few dogs today interested in me and her.

So in my case at two shows recently dogs have been upset by my and my exhibits presence, yet no in season bitch of mine was shown.

>> If a breed is shown stacked and virtually in a death-grip by the handler
> Yep, cos it's really easy to string up a 32kg Large Munsterlander!!!!!!&nbsp; A dog will stack if it wants to, if it doesn't then the terms 'rocking horse' & 'bucking bronco' come into play - it's not as easy as you think!!!&nbsp; If a dog doesn't want to show, it won't show. <

Don't think anyone, other than Sarah, said, or thinks it is easy just that it is easier than free standing if there is a stronger distraction for your dogs attention other than what you may have in your pocket, being able to actualy handle your dog must be a step easier than not being able to.

> So in my case at two shows recently dogs have been upset by my and my exhibits presence, yet no in season bitch of mine was shown.

That is true Barbara, nature intended that it should be a very strong smell, carrying a long way and not to be ignored, because it is the whole purpose of a dog or bitch, who can, to try to procreate.  However the interest seems to diminish a little although I did once have a problem with someone who bought an in season bitch to the show and thought it may be ok if they left her in the car, it was not and my dog at least knew the moment she, the owner/driver walked into the hall and I noticed that other dogs in the hall were also aware as well.

Do wonder if dogs kept with intact bitches are better in this regard, do they, A/ know the time is not yet right  B/ know that just because they can smell does not mean the bitch is available or C/ learn to ignore unless invited to help themselves?

Do not think that we, the handlers, should be beating ourselves up because our dogs, or bitches, are disturbed by the presents of an in season bitch or her handmaidens, nature designed it thus, nothing, absolutely nothing should come before the need to mate and in most cases it does not.

Totally agree with you Nova!  I like my dogs to stand themselves although I do sometimes stack them and then I run them around on a loose lead to show their natural movement, there are too many in my breed being strung up and moving awfully.

> <SPAN class=htt>In Response to</SPAN> Jeangenie That's a very good point, Jackie. My breed are always shown free-standing; they're never stacked, and they're shown on a loose lead, not strung up. If a breed is shown stacked and virtually in a death-grip by the handler then unwanted movement by the dog is more easily controlled.

Tt was J/G who made that statement, not Sarah!

I agree with all those who think that it is wrong to show an in season bitch. In my opinion it is very bad form and not fair to other exhibitors at all.

> Do wonder if dogs kept with intact bitches are better in this regard, do they, A/ know the time is not yet right&nbsp; B/ know that just because they can smell does not mean the bitch is available or C/ learn to ignore unless invited to help themselves?

This is an interesting one.

My friend Bryony had problems with her boy when doing obedience as he tended to bitch and often got distracted in his stays (never broke but used to sniff the ground, and would occasionally go down from the sit).

At conformation shows he used to get quite upset around bitches that had recently been in season or perhaps were going to come in.  He lived with spayed bitches and an entire male.

He was used at stud at 6 years of age,a nd after that Bryony has never had a problem with him at conformation shows.  He may show a passing interest and wish to inspect as all dogs do given the chance, but he has learnt from staying with me when used that the other bitches are not part of the deal, and that he has to wait until the time is right and that bitches eventually go 'off' and will no longer be available.

He can be around in season bitches quite happily (until they are actually ready for mating).

It does seem to be young inexperienced males who get all in a lather about people or bitches that are not in season, but perhaps have been near one or one that is about to come in or finished.

The above I think leads to the bitch owners perhaps thinking that it is more of a training issue when there genuinely is not a bitch in standing season around.  To a certain extent I think that owners of males have to take on board that often their dogs will be bitching inappropriately when the more experienced dog would know better.  I do think males who live with entire bitches are less likely to show uncalled for advances (they soon get a dressing down by sisters Mums and Aunts, not to mention matriarchal grandma's are home when they first find out they are male) and over excitement at the mere presence of a bitch, and bitch. :D

I would firstly like to point out that a stacked dog is not "held in a death grip" - mine are stacked and when properly done, the lead is held by one hand, the tail by the other - the dog stands by itself keeping its feet in the place they are put. Hold it in anything like a death grip and there is no way it will keep still as it will not be comfortable.
Secondly, as has been said before there will always be bitches in season at shows while there is no rule against it, and unless you are first in the ring on the first day all the dogs and bitches will be aware.
Thirdly, many people use it as an excuse - I have been told there has been a bitch in season when a dog sniffed the ground even after he could be clearly eating the discarded treat he was sniffing after! If a boy mis-behaves, then its bound to be because there is a bitch in season - even though none of the others seem to realise it. I have had dogs clamped to my bitches rear end to be told "she will be in season soon" (no, in a couple of months, maybe!) Also, quite often bitches have hormone surges weeks before seasons and when seasons have been over for a few weeks - so just when are we to be allowed to show our girls???

>when properly done, the lead is held by one hand, the tail by the other

"When properly done" is the important phrase there, isn't it? I've seen stacked dogs being held by the lip (side away from the judge, natch!) or by a firm grip on the loose skin of the throat. And of course if the slip-lead is tight behind the ears it's in a very sensitive part of the dog, and little pressure is needed to cause disproportionate discomfort.

>Also, quite often bitches have hormone surges weeks before seasons and when seasons have been over for a few weeks - so just when are we to be allowed to show our girls???

Yep, it's a problem - but I still prefer owning and showing bitches. I just don't show them when they're in season, that's all.

Yes, properly done is the key phrase, but previously it seemed to suggest that all stacked dogs are held in a "death grip". It is when a slip lead presses the adams apple that it causes discomfort - in front of the adams apple and up behind the ears is no more uncomfortable than lower down behind the adams apple.
The boys are just as interested with the hormone surge as when the bitch is in season, so really it doesnt make a great deal of difference. And by the way, what about the distraction of the boys being allowed to pee on each and every upright object around the ring - then the others go potty to mark on top - why is there nothing wrong with that, or is it because it is the boys?

Fillis, I can't see a comment from anybody at all saying that it's ok for males to be "allowed to pee on each and every upright object around the ring - then the others go potty to mark on top ".  I have shown dogs and think that behaviour is not acceptable.  Poor souls who have to pack the marquees away - yuk! I don't think that it's fair to turn a discussion about people showing bitches in season into an attack onto all male dogs and their owners. I think most of us would find that unacceptable.

If you think about it - one in season bitch could spoil the chances of quite a lot of other dogs, both males and females. Perhaps that is not very fair or sporting?

Well I have just missed 4 shows for my lovely spanish girl as she's been in season for the last two weeks.  I don't show bitches in season as I personally feel it's unfair.  I do wish I could recoup my entry money.  I must admit I'd die of embarrassment if my bitch dropped blood whilst in the ring & to be honest she's dripped so much this season that the poor judge would have been covered :-O

I can but look forward to another day when we're back in the ring.  With the Spanish of course we have the clipping issue so time is already spent out of the ring regrowing it.  Hey ho, that is the sport of dogs I suppose.

I have to say that I did spend a whole day crying when I discovered she was in season as I knew I wouldn't be breeding from her & I'd made all sorts of weird & wonderful plans for the halfterm shows.

You have my sympathy for your disappointment in not being able to show her.  I missed my first ever Crufts because my girl was in season.  I was sooo disappointed. 

You have been very considerate - both of other exhibitors and of your bitch :)

I only have dogs and can't say I have a problem with in season bitches being shown. Dogs can be distracted by allsorts of things, but you have to cope this and learn how get their attention if distracted. There have been times when my boy's had his nose to the ground in the ring whilst waiting to be seen, but when it comes to being seen he's fine, free stood and moved on a loose lead. The only time he's been distracted on the move was when someone was sat at the ring side with a bag of pigs ears in front of them.

ridgielover - I never said that anyone here said the boys peeing everywhere was okay - I introduced that to point out that it is not just in season bitches that are a distraction - there are far more distractions than a bitch in season, but it is always the bitches that get singled out! I am certainly not attacking all male dogs and their owners - I have 2 entire males myself (both are shown). What I am saying, though is that the bitches get a rougher deal than the dogs and are invariably blamed when the boys mis-behave.  

> What I am saying, though is that the bitches get a rougher deal than the dogs and are invariably blamed when the boys mis-behave

Have to agree here.  the bitches do get the raw end of the deal showing wise.

Males are always first in,a and then the Best dog has a nice rest comes into the ring where there is a nice bitch waiting for him so he's on his toes. 

Poor bitch has likely been in a long limit or Open bitch class, then the challenge which with some judges can take ages, and in walks the dog who thinks he's the bees knees and she is getting fed up, who goes BOB!

So far this year at CC shows all the BOB's have gone to males, and usually about 2/3d's seem to, even when the judges always comment in many breeds that depth of quality is in the fairer sex.

Why the need to show an in sesaon bitch at a show?   there are other shows.

i show  both males and females.  some years ago  my dog and i won our  his first cc and  BOB ,imagine how i felt  when in  the group ring the Briard in front of me was in full season, my dog  was unused at only 12 mths of age  i couldn't do a thing with him.

Suffered a very embarrassing time in the BIS ring once with a junior dog, fault of my dog and myself, of course.

Entered the ring as soon as the steward called as I had an inexperienced dog and needed time to settle him, talked to him, put my hand in my pocket, and my fingers to my mouth, really got his attention and hoped to do well.

The gundog group winner came into the ring and decided that he wished to stack his dog between me and the dog on my right, now I never mind this but it is a bit of a pain because it breaks the dogs concentration and you often find you do not have enough room to turn your free stood dog so have to go to the end of the line and try to regain their attention.

In this case matters were worse than that, the gundog handler stood beside me and dragged his exhibit in to place, nose in one hand tail in the other and the bitches swollen vulva about 12" from my young dogs nose.

It was too much and he was on her back before I could do anything to stop him. I struggled desperately to remove him but as soon as I moved one front leg and started on the other the first was returned and the grip tightened. The audience where amused and the bitches handler and the judge stood offering no help but complaining to me and about me.

Finally managed to drag him to the end of the line, very red with embarrassment and effort, where my exhibit totally ignored me and in turn was totally ignored, but the gundog owner was given much sympathy and the RBIS by the judge.

Have never gone back to that venue again in case someone recognises me, nor have I entered a show that has that judge for the same reason.

> Why the need to show an in sesaon bitch at a show?&nbsp;&nbsp; there are other shows

Not for some breeds there are few showing opportunities.  Especially if you are not prepared to go all over the country.  That gives me about 8- 10 shows within 120 miles.

We have 19 sets of CC's the majority seem to be in May, July and August.

My youngest champion bitch had a litter 18 months ago and has managed only three shows this year (now mated so will be out the rest of the year, and might just be showable for Manchester, if she doesn't come in season for that.

Our 7.5 month old came in to season about as early as she could the little mare. We showed her at Bath at the end of her 1st week, and we had no problems, we kept her well away from the males when they were showing and we had/nor apppeared to cause any problems. We didn't take her to Taunton & District due to it being an open show, and by Southern Counties she had a backside like a chimps so we left her at home.
Most people we spoke to admired the fact that we'd not shown her as the general concensus was that most would've, on the basis that they have paid their money etc, which I can agree with. She'll probably be speyed before next season, so won't be a dilemma for us next time.

> Yep, cos it's really easy to string up a 32kg Large Munsterlander!!!!!!  A dog will stack if it wants to, if it doesn't then the terms 'rocking horse' & 'bucking bronco' come into play - it's not as easy as you think!!!  If a dog doesn't want to show, it won't show.

im with you on that Christine, sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to free stand !!

>sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to free stand !!

Give it a go! The dogs certainly look much better. :-)

That may be the case but not in my breed, I would look slightly out of place with all the other dogs in the class stacked. 

What a shame. :-(

A badly placed free standing breed looks just as worse as a badly standing stacked breed and I HATE to see those that free stand, move the dogs feet with their own feet.  Bad handling.

What I find difficult to fathom is why it states on all Field trial and working tests governed by the KC entry forms that 'No In Season Bitch may be bought onto the ground where said test/trial is taking place. I know  with working it is different as the dogs may run off to find said bitch but why they allow an in season bitch to compete at a show seems like double standards to me.

Your quite right in season bitches are not allowed at Obedience competitions, Agility or any other working discipline.

This means that in season bitches are allowed at conformation shows (it isn't that the KC has ommited to rule on the matter, and soem foreign KC ban them), so to be honest whether people like it or not owners are entitled to take in season bitches to a show.

I chat on a US forum and the attitude to in season and in whelp bitches is that it is the owners entitlement to show when they wish or can, no-one seems to have a negative attitude to it, and I am talking about owners with males, they just expect that there will be in season bitches there.

Maybe it is the long distances people travel and show for several days, meaning that trips are planned and undertaken, hotels already booked and paid for, so a lot more to loose than your entry Fee.

I prefer not to do it because it will spolil my enjoyment of the show, having to be ultra circumspect and watchful of my bitch.

To me it seems an awful lot of hassle for the bitch, owner and other dog owners too and may spoil the enjoyment of other competitors. Again the KC have proven they have double standards. I no longer show but wouldn't have dreamt of taking an 'in season' bitch to a show when I did, not worth all the aggro for a ribbon or card but can understand why people do it if they have a large outlay of money with hotels etc

>I HATE to see those that free stand, move the dogs feet with their own feet.  Bad handling.

I quite agree, very bad, and its usually frowned upon.

One of the great joys of the free-standing breeds is seeing all those happily waving tails. :-)

>One of the great joys of the free-standing breeds is seeing all those happily waving tails. 

not all of them though, that seems to only be Dalmations and gundogs, I handled a smooth collie for someone at the weekend and he didnt wag his tail, same with the Afghans I used to handle.  I think it depends on the breed.

Actuallyt just noticed this thread.. and since I have been upset for the last week about my boys behaviour... its something I feel the need to comment on....

I have 6 bitches.. 4 are shown.. but never ever when in season... I also have 3 boys.. and up until last weekend.. I never really had a problem with in season bitches.. my boys live around them all year round... and to be truthfull.. Ollie shows a dream when an in season bitch is around.. he perks himself up... alert and a true show off ... Hunter never took any notice.. I always assumed him to be too thick to notice there even was an opposite sex lol... until... last weekend....

Now, Hunter has only just began standing at stud.. and the change in him is unbelievable... his normal ring behaviour is laid back, couldnt care less.. and is most definately NOT a showman.. thankfully.. hisconformation and movement wins him his placings... but since he has had 3 bitches.. he is a nightmare to handle in the ring.. and last weekend at a small local show.. he was impossible... I was literally dragged from one end of the ring to the other, ... just as the judge was about to go hands on... he marked a minimum of 9 places while in the ring.. and this has NOTHING to do with me not being a good handler.. nor the fact that he is a novice stud dog... it is about the bitch owner having a lack of decency and respect for other show goers...

My other dogs couldnt care if a bitch is in season or not.. yes.. they show a minor interest.. but not knowing why.. they let it pass and I keep their concentration on me.. and honestly.. I have never given a bitch in season another thought.. but now.. my feelings have changed.. I am on the other end of the lead.. so to speak....

Just as an aside... stud dogs.. those who are used at stud on a very regular basis, MAY not have the same problem... they know when a bitch is truly ready... and pay little attention to a bitch until those few days... a novice dog sparing used at stud.. may NOT know the difference.. any in season bitch is fair game.. whether they are at the optimum stage of season or not... its these dogs and owners that suffer the most.. you cannot tell a prospective stud dog off for doing what he has been allowed to do.. and what you hope he will continue to do...

I know its a fine line.. but we all pay out a lot of money... it comes down to respecting others...

going back to nurse my chipped collar bone.. ripped muscle and skinned knee... (all because a bitch was shown in season in the ring before we went in)

Sorry I agree with some of the others.  My dog has been used at stud and he will concentrate on me in the ring.  It is highly unlikely the bitch will on heat at a show so the dog will cope.  I have far more trouble at home with my young lad convincing him the girls are finished than at show.  Dogs are always on first anyway.  The only time it would affect a male is if the bitch got the ticket and it was in the challenge.

I do feel more sorry for scent hounds on day 3 off a dog show but have found that it is not just the dogs who are attracted to the smells but bitches too.  Some of my friends put strong smelling oils on the end of the nose stops them dragging along however they could also be smelling for other things too.

Some judges will not place you because of it and some will let it go.

> Just as an aside... stud dogs.. those who are used at stud on a very regular basis, MAY not have the same problem... they know when a bitch is truly ready... and pay little attention to a bitch until those few days... a novice dog sparing used at stud.. may NOT know the difference.. any in season bitch is fair game.. whether they are at the optimum stage of season or not... its these dogs and owners that suffer the most..

Most stud dogs in my breed are lucky to be used as often as yoru boy.  Jointly own a top stud who has only sired 8 litters, in his 6 1/2 years, and has been influential.

The dog that I handle at stud improved in his attitude after his first stud use, so it really depends on the dog not the frequency of use.

I have a lot more problems with getting through to my boy that the girls season has finished not just at shows but at home.  He is probably the thickest dog I have ever known.  My youngest bitch finished her season two months ago and he is still convinced she is in season despite her flooring him nearly every time.

I don't agree with in season bitches being shown at open shows or anywhere the exhibits are in a cramped indoor area but a bitch just beginning or ending a season if handled and exercised responsibly is IMO not an issue and up to the individual owner/exhibitor.  Bitches are already penalised enough by Mother Nature in that with seasons and coat changes they can often only attend a handlful of shows over a short period in a year.  Were a judge to come around who really likes the type of a particular bitch then it may be one of only a very few opportunities to be a serious contender for the CC for example - not quite the same IMO as trotting off to the local village hall in the hope of collecting a rosette :)

I don't think it should be a regular event but there are always exceptional circumstances (to the individual exhibitors) and I believe tolerance by all is the mark of truly good sportsmanship.

As to males, in my breed it's not a problem I've noticed in around 20 years of the ch show circuit and over that time I have owned/exhibited entire animals of both genders.  Certainly my stud dog was not in the least bothered by in season bitches at general champ shows as he knew the score, and ironically my dog not used at stud showed better for there having been a whiff of a promise in the air LOL.

Providing the bitch herself is not distressed, the owner takes every sensible and sensitive precaution to ensure she is not a nuisance to other exhibits whether in or out of the ring, then as far as I'm concerned if that exhibitor has paid out megga bucks to have their bitch there (when very probably not expecting the season to have begun or alternatively to have finished by the show date) then fair play to them :)

regards, Teri

Ditto Teri about the open shows. I think champshows no problem as they are generally same sexed but I personally think it is not acceptable at open shows. 

I was at the ice Rink in Kirkcaldy a couple years ago 2 bitches in my class , I had my dog. Both bitches right in season. I gave up and withdrew my dog.  He was a junior and not one paw was on the ground.  I can remember being really angry at the time with the owners and the judge.   I was the only one who didn't think it funny especially when you put so much work into their training to.

I was also at a show in perth and saw a lady with a australian on her grooming table in season and a large breed dog trying to get to the bitch. The little dog owner was screaming at the big dog owner.   I was shaking my head at her.    can you imagine the terrible fight that could kick off a big dog trying to get to a bitch.

ditto Teri too :)

"No bitches may be mated within the precincts of a show or competition."

Taken from the Kennel Club website.

I think this is an acknowledgment that in-season bitches may be attending the show ;)   After all, surely the whole point of showing is to exhibit and assess breeding stock and future breeding stock, so the chances are a bitch will sometimes be in-season.

going to put my tin hat on now!

BTW  I would never, ever take an in-season bitch to an open show.  There just isn't the room to avoid other dogs as most opens are in really cramped halls.

>I think this is an acknowledgment that in-season bitches may be attending the show

But not necessarily as entrants though. It would be a convenient place to arrange to meet a stud dog for a rendez-vous in a quiet area of the car park.That rule makes it less likely that in-season bitches would be at a show.

Does not actualy stop it happening anyway.

From reading this thread I am beginning to wonder if what I own are not normal male dogs but some sort of alien species that will not miss an opportunity to investigate a smell of interest and have no interest in listening to me when they obviously know best. After all how do you explain to a dog that following their best interests is the wrong way? May be it is a breed thing, may be a training matter, some in my breed are able to concentrate others are not and those who are not also get a bit iffy with other males once they pick up a bitch smell. Perhaps there should be a rule about not showing aroused dogs

Teri - the voice of reason! On the occasions I have had an in season bitch (at a ch sow never an open show) I have found empty benches (very rare there are none spare) and kept her away from the ring until it is time to go in. I am honest with other exhibitors if they approach for a chat and have a dog with them, and they appreciate that (or seem to). She is benched in a crate. Good sportsmanship goes both ways, and frankly it is very wearing that owners always assume a bitch in season is about whenever a dog sniffs the ground - after all both dogs and bitches have a good old sniff wherever a bitch has peed, in season or not, they just have to check it out.

LOL Nova - if there was a rule about aroused dogs, my 15 month old boy would be constantly banned - he's going through "that" stage - I even dread grooming him!!! ;-)

> After all, surely the whole point of showing is to exhibit and assess breeding stock and future breeding stock, so the chances are a bitch will sometimes be in-season.

Excellent point Dill

I won't take a bitch who is around ovulating time as any self-respecting stud dog can tell the difference (and a real risk of accidents happening) but I will take an otherwise just in/just out one along to Championship shows where I have shelled out money on a succession of shows. It's a lot of money to throw down the drain.

> if there was a rule about aroused dogs

Made me laugh, I've got one of them too. If dogs weren't able to be shown because they are distracted by girls then my lad would never go out. At 12 months every dog is fair game to him and he even got himself in a flap over a 4month puppy bitch last week.
Judge went over him on the table last weekend at SC and when getting to the 'three piece suite' he gave me a knowing look and said " oh dear". I told him that it's mostly like that. I'm sure I saw a flash of envy in the poor old chaps eyes :-)

Hi Marianne

Yep showed males, had males, first male show dog was an Akita!  Have shown dogs to win tickets, have shown males across many breeds for many people. Have shown stacked and freestanding.

We were at Southern Counties on the third day, next to Rotts and Newfs and Leos.  Had a good watch of the large dog classes to see the standard of handling, mostly seemed to be exemplory, must have been a show where no in season bitch had been taken on any day lol