Hi! I am entering my puppy at an Open Show which is judged on the Group system - we don't have breed classes though, so normally I would put him in AVNSC Pastoral Puppy, but there is only AVNSC Pastoral Junior and Open.  So what I want to know is, if my puppy doesn't get placed in the class, but all the placed dogs are over 12 months, do we still go through as an unbeaten puppy?

You have to be placed, even if its 3rd or fourth, then as long as the ones that have beaten your are adults then yes you go through to the puppy group :)

Ok, thanks!

They will have to declare a Best AVNSC Puppy and that will be eligible for the puppy group.( Red Book F(1)3.54/7e)

Is that even if there is no AVNSC Puppy class scheduled?  That's why I'm confused - we have always had an AVNSC Puppy class at shows I've entered, so it's thrown me now with just Junior and Open!

Yes its treated as a breed class. For sake of argument if say there was Post grad and open in BC's they would still declare a best  puppy in breed so eligible for the  puppy group. The same applies to AVNSC.

Right okay, I understand that one now!  Many thanks!

But a puppy does not to be best puppy in breed to be able to compete in the puppy group. If there is no puppy class for the breed then a puppy can go into AVs (although not AVNSC if the breed is classified)

I recently entered my puppy in her breed class,no puppy class so she was entered in Post grad.She was placed 3rd behind 2 adult dogs.When I asked the steward if this meant she was best puppy in her breed ( no puppies in open) she um and ahh and said there aren't any puppy classes for this breed.We then went home.A couple of days later a friend asked us why we didn't go into best puppy in breed group.Was she eligiable as the steward said no.

Yes if there is an av puppy  scheduled before the  group then the winner is also eligible for the puppy group however you should not get more than one puppy coming into the group from each breed classification or the AVNSC . Edited to add so a BPIB or BPAVNSC should be declared.

Thanks,I thought so but when the steward said no we just went home.

>But a puppy does not to be best puppy in breed to be able to compete in the puppy group. If there is no puppy class for the breed then a puppy can go into AVs (although not AVNSC if the breed is classified)

If somebody has 2 puppies of the same breed, and enters one in the Open breed class (no puppy class for the breed) and gets BPIB, and enters the other in AV puppy and comes 1st, are both puppies eligible for the group?

So what happens if there is an unbeaten puppy in AVNSC Pastoral, which will presumably be BPAVNSC - and if there is an AV Pastoral Puppy class, the winner of that will also be unbeaten - so how do they sort out which Pastoral one goes through to Group then?  As you say, there should only be one.

Looks like we thought of the same question at the same time, kayenine!

Yes they are both eligible for the group if the av class is scheduled before the group judging.Thats the anomaly that spoils the rule and can cause confusion.

That seems really weird!  Oh well, so we learn something new each day!

I would double check this - it depends if the show is held on the group system. If it is then only the Best puppy from AVNSC pup class can compete in the group. If not on the group system then yes, BP AVNSC plus best AV puppy can go in the group.
This happened to me recently. Show was on the group system. My pup won AV Gundog puppy but was not able to compete in the group.
If I had entered him in AVNSC (there were only 4 AVNSC classes - not one for each group unfortunatly) and he had also won this we could have gone into the group. Very confusing.

I wasn't sure if having to go in AVNSC rule applied to puppies (it's a Group show).. There is actually an AV Pastoral Puppy class at this show, judged straight after AVNSC, but then if the winner of that isn't eligible to compete in the Group, what is the point of having the class I wonder.

If not a group system show there is no group. ;)

Sunbeams are there any puppy classes scheduled?

> it depends if the show is held on the group system. If it is then only the Best puppy from AVNSC pup class can compete in the group. If not on the group system then yes, BP AVNSC plus best AV puppy can go in the group.

I'm afraid you were misinformed Setters4me.  Any unbeaten puppy can compete in it's relevant group at an Open show. This rule applies ONLY to puppies and not to adult dogs.

It's such a shame when commitee and stewards do not know their rules and don't allow exhibitors to rightfully compete.

Debs

Puppies are not required to go in avnsc or breed classes unless there is a puppy class scheduled. It also depends on the wording for av pastoral puppy, is it definitely judged before the puppy group and is it just av pastoral puppy or is it av special pastoral puppy.
All unbeaten puppies are allowed in the group  av pastoral puppy( so long as it is judged before the group) and best avnsc pastoral puppy included unless the schedule gives further information on the classification.
Mistakes are made at shows especially with these particular classes.
Just a thought setters4me if there was an AVNSC puppy class that is why av puppy was not allowed in the group.

> Just a thought setters4me if there was an AVNSC puppy class that is why av puppy was not allowed in the group.

Even with an AVNSC puppy class, the winner of AV puppy can still go in the group providing it is unbeaten by any other puppy - even if it was only entered in AV puppy (it could do this only if there was no puppy class in it's breed).

The rules state:

Best Puppy in Group and subsequent Group placings must be selected from puppies which have been judged and which are unbeaten by any other puppy.

This differs from the adult Group rules which state:

Best of Group and subsequent placings must be selected fron:-
a) The Best of Breed winners in each Group providing they are unbeaten winning dogs.
b) The best unbeaten winning dog from the Any Variety Not Separately Classified class in each Group or on each day.

Note the absence of BOB and AVNSC in the puppy rulings.

In theory, one show two puppies of the same breed, one in AVNSC Puppy and the other in AV Puppy and, if they both won, they could both go into the Puppy Group.

HTH

Debs

How annoying for the steward to tell you your puppy did not qualify to compete in the puppy group, there is always an award for Best Puppy. In my breed you often find puppies lurking in the Junior classes and so when I steward I mark any such up, then get hold of the top placed one and remind them to come back in to challenge for BP.

Had a slightly similar situation today, in our AV class there were 6 dogs, the judge placed 4 and then wandered vaguely off to do her critique. I pointed out to the steward that there should be 5 places, but she seemed to be more concerned about the lack of place cards for Reserve & VHC, and didn't understand that I was requesting the judge select a VHC with or without prize cards available - if there had only been 5 of us in the class I would have joined on the end, but of course couldn't do that with still 2 of us to choose from. Definitely a judging error as the following classes she placed 5 every time!

Yes Debs realised after I'd posted that applies to breed classes rather than AVNSC and was just coming back to edit.

Edited to add and my Hubby wonders why I get frazzled when the show I'm Secretary of comes around LOL

No worries Satincollie :-)

It's a shame that so many people, especially show officials, get confused with the rulings.  It must be so disheartening to be told you can't compete for an award only to find out too late that you were perfectly eligible.

Debs

I am annoyed now as the person who informed me that my pup was unable to go in the group is a champ show Gundog group judge and of course I thought he would know his stuff! The judge also told me afterwards that my pup would have won the group too!! Fiddlesticks!!!

The same also applies to Veterans as I was at a show where I was BOB and the same breed was Best Veteran and went on to win RBIS.

Some of the breeds classified do have their own puppy classes - as well as J, PG and Open.  In my section, Pastoral, these are then followed directly by AVNSC Past J, PG & Open, followed by AV Pastoral P, J, PG & Open, which is then followed by AV Past Veteran - Group judging is after those.

So conceivably you could have in the groups two of the same breed the BPIB winner entered in breed classes and the Best AVNSC pastoral puppy winner, and in the adults the winner of BOB and same breed that won AV pastoral Veteran.

Winners of AV Veteran are not allowed to compete in adult Groups.  Only the BOBs and BAVNSC.  Unless it's a single group show.

Debs

Thinking about it, it was the Nordic when I was BOB and the Veteran winner won, and of course that isn't a UK group show :D.

Ahhh that explains it then :-D

Debs

Barbara  if there is a breed class they can't enter AVNSC they can enter av pastoral puppy though. So yes there is a possibility of having one breed that has two in the puppy group.