Hi
I have been showing for 2 years now but still don't know how people become judges. I hear a lot of talk about B,C?(are there A?) lists, see conformation/movement seminars advertised (would like to go but are they just for judges?). Feel a bit of a fool for not knowing but need to ask to find out :-) I always thought judges were people of longstanding in a breed but realise that is now not always the case. Could someone explain it all or point me to a weblink that will.
Thanks
Angela

Generally when you have been showing for a while and shown or bred some decent dogs people will assume that you have an eye for the breed and someone may ask you to judge say a club match, then a companion show etc.  You may even be asked to judge at an Open show.

If your breed is running judging seminars then you ask to be included, and that will also show people that you are interested i becoming a judge.  Once you have done the groundwork you can apply to be on one of your breed clubs list which vary as to experience.

On the other hand there are plenty of -people including highly successful breeders and exhibitors who have no interest in judging other than choosing the best mate for their bitches and choosing the best pups.

Thanks for the reply thought that was the case re experience but what do people mean when they say 'moving up the judging list' is it based on the nos judged or just experience,invites etc? I would like to attend a movement seminar as I think it would help me but I am a very long way (prob about 20 years :-) ) from being able to judge!
Angela

Basically yes the different A B C lists etc are based on how much judgng you have done.  there will be different requirements from different clubs re numbers fo classes judged etc.

Also you can only judge less than 3 classes of a breed if your not on a breeds B list in some breeds.

You apply to the breed club to go on the judging list, and your application goes before the judges sub-commitee.  In some breeds you only need to do 1 application to cover all breeds, as the judges sub-com. and the judging list are common thorughout all the breed clubs, but in other breeds each breed club may have its own list and sub-com.  You start out on the C list, either breed specialiast or all-rounder (in most cases you start out on the specialist list for your own breed, the all rounder list is usually for people who are already juding successfully in own breed and are thn branching out into various others.)

When you apply to go on a list is up to you, you are expected to show knowledge and "a genuine interest" in the breed, but C list criteria are not too stiff.  Then, as you progress, both in showing and judging, you can apply to move up to B & A lists (having had a sufficient number of dogs who have gained stud book numbers, and having judged certain numbers of dogs and classes).

There is a terrific difference in the knowledge base of C list judges, some are expert and experienced judges from other breeds, some may be deeply steeped in that particualr breed but not wanted to judge or progress up the list before, and some may be comparitively new to the breed or dog showing itself, but consider they are suitably qualified and ready to judge.

bye
Gwen

Anyone can go to a conformation and movement seminar - I don't show but I went to one with a friend and I found it very interesting.

And unfortunately if you've been showing for over 20 years, judged a number of shows around 15 years ago none of this is taken into account.

I actually imported my main breed now 16 years ago, but I have to start right at the bottom.  In the breed club I am stated as someone who might have an interested in judging, not even as a breed specialist and I was the one who imported them.

As you might be able to tell this frustrates me highly that someone who may not even be in the breed and someone who may only be showing for a short time could end up higher up than me!

Now I have to go back to the drawing board and start all over again as I haven't judged for a number of years and the rules have changed since that time!

if you've been showing for over 20 years, judged a number of shows around 15 years ago none of this is taken into account.

Any judging experience you've had will count as something on your CV, as long as you've kept records of what you've judged.  The only things that have changed really are the KC required seminars on conformation and movement, judging rules and regs and a breed specific seminar (normally for the B list upwards).  Also the stewarding appointments - but that is only for CC appointments.

With a breed straight off the import reg, the Breed Club will have to waiver any rules requiring you to have judged x amount of breed classes - otherwise they wouldn't have a judges list at all!

Debs

Generally when you have been showing for a while and shown or bred some decent dogs people will assume that you have an eye for the breed

Oh, how I agree with this BUT sadly such assumptions can be very misleading.  I know of people "climbing the judging ladder" who wouldn't know a decent dog if it bit them on the backside!  People, for example, who have bought all their show dogs from one kennel and then go on to produce offspring from these dogs......In breeds where there is diversity of type, can such people honestly evaluate breed type (other than their own)???  Somehow I doubt this.

In my opinion, "an eye for a good dog" is an essential requirement of judging and until someone can prove that they possess this through their own interactions with dogs, I would neither show under them nor recommend others to do so.

Just to add that you can of course go to any seminar you fancy. I've been to several different breed seminars and found them all interesting. You're there to learn so don't feel like you need to know what you're doing beforehand. Often they will have a test (written and judging real dogs) at the end but you don't need to do this if you don't want to.

Thanks for the replies! and for explaining the system :-). I have been to breed seminars before and really enjoyed it so I think I will book onto the conformation and movement one next time there is one with places available.
Angela

Sorry Debs2004 but I dont follow the point you are making. Someone has bought their foundation dogs from one kennel and gone on to produce from these. You dont say how successful they have been, or how successful the foundation kennel is. What has diversity in type got to do with things?

I think what was meant is that if all your dogs come from one kennel you only have experience with that particular type. 

Moat breeds can have a variety of types/styles of dogs that all adhere to the standards which given enough room to accommodate these differences. 

In fact I believe these slight differences of emphasis and style within breed parameters are essential for a breed, to avoid or rectify exaggeration.

If a judge knows only one type they may not judge or view the other equally correct but different types fairly.

Sometimes though a judge may be better than that, but because they show a certain type exhibitors of the other type/s don't enter under them thinking they will not do well, then the judge has no option but to put up the expected type and prove the pundits right ;)

I dont see the issue, if you buy a dog from a good kennel and the dog does well for you then why not go back there for another? I have 2 dogs of the same breed, both males, and I bought both from the same kennel. Both have been successful, the reason I went to this kennel was because I liked the dogs they consistently produced, and not only did their dogs do well but they sold dogs to peopel who then won well with them. I would have been mad to have gone elsewhere for a 2nd one.

Some judges are very consistent when they judge, not only specialists but some all breed judges, but at least you can follow what they do. Much better than the ones who share it around and when you get to BOB they look like 2 different breeds.

Nothing wrong with going to the same breeder or stock, but we are discussing judging here where if what you are used to seeing is of one type it may bias you in your judging.

But surely, just because you own one type it doesn't mean that you don't appreciate others.  By the time you get into the middle of the ring and start judging you will have been exposed to many, many types.  If people can't appreciate a type they don't live with and can't see the merits in it then maybe they shouldn't be judging at all? 

I've given CCs to dogs that I wouldn't want to live with but they measure up very well to the standard and one cannot deny they are excellent examples of their breed.

Debs

If people can't appreciate a type they don't live with and can't see the merits in it then maybe they shouldn't be judging at all?


My point exactly!

I've given CCs to dogs that I wouldn't want to live with but they measure up very well to the standard and one cannot deny they are excellent examples of their breed.


Then you are amongst the few of a rare breed known as honest and decent judges!

Apologies if my opinion offends but it is formed after more than two decades of dog showing.

I agree with Soli. Most serious breeders develop a 'look' rather than a type, you can see that a certain dog is from a certain kennel. That doesnt make them all the same or all equally as good, it also shouldnt mean that they can see the merit in other people's dogs.

You get exposed to other types every time you go to a dog show. i do thing type is a much misused term. A dog must be typical of its breed IMO as a starting point - I often ask if I were out in the park would I know what breed that dog was - if the answer is no then it must go well down the line.

We then move to different types and looks within a breed. There can be a variety that are all correct. Some kennels have more than 1 type (but with the same look), as long as the dog is typical of the breed then thats ok.

Good judges can appreciate merit in other people's dogs. Good breeders know where their dogs fail and where to improve. Some people who rarely breed but 'buy in' their dogs are great puppy pickes, some people cannot pick a puppy in a litter.

We have to face it that in this game some people are better at things than others, be it picking the right sire, the rick pup to keep, rearing , conditioning, trimming, handling.

If a judge consistently puts up what you dont have or like, then dont go again - but it doesnt mean they are crooks.

Perrodeagua, sadly I fought the KC on their "moving goalposts" for many years (I was a rebellious teenager for many years ;-))  I then watched "newbies" doing the club shows & on their way to giving tickets & decided that I wasn't going to beat 'em so I'd join 'em.  I've been judging my first breed for 20 years & have done everything now required by KC (including the dreaded & all time consuming stewarding, which I have also been doing for nearly 20 years!)

I must admit I was shocked when I saw the judging list & where you were as you say, it's nuts but I suppose if you want to judge then you have to jump through the hoops (sorry I mean follow the procedures put down).  I learned the hard way with the first breed in that if you don't get in quick you'll get left behind (hence pushy lady with judging appt for other breed)

Debs2004
Then you are amongst the few of a rare breed known as honest and decent judges!

Oh dear, I'm sorry you feel that way but I'd have to disagree with you I'm afraid.
I'm an honest judge, my friends are honest judges and the many people I've known over a considerable time in dogs ( take yours and double it) are too.
They are human, they may get swayed by exceptional handling in a huge class,may give a second look to an exhibitor who ususally has super dogs, but on the whole I feel we all do a reasonable job.Why not, we've got nothing to lose.

Where there is sometimes a problem is the super-ambitious types who are desperately trying to get up the ladder. I find that newbies dont stand an earthly under them nor anyone who cant give them a 'leg-up'.
The other to avoid is the dithery nervous judge who doesn't have the courage of their convictions.
I started judging in the early 80's and I would hate to be going through all this 'hoop-jumping' now.