Im very new to showing and my dog won best av working and just wondered if this should have sent him on to the working group as i left the show after this class and i freind of mine also new to showing told me i should have stayed for the group?

If it was AV, no. If it was AVNSC, the yes.  AV winners don't go forward to the group as dogs in them may have their own breed classes but BOB AVNSC do as those dogs do not have breed classes.

Hi
I was wondering about this too. I know the above to be true but this is what happen to me at my first open show- my bitch was just under 7 mths there was no puppy class in the AVNSC but was in the AV so as not to be with much older dogs in the junior I entered the AV class and not AVNSC, anyway we won the class and someone I know told me off for not entering the AVNSC class as I could not go for the group now, BUT the judge herself (and she said she gives seminars on the KC rules and regs) said that as there was not a puppy class in AVNSC that I could and we went on to get 2nd in the group :) I am now it the same situation for my next show and don't know wheather to enter her in the puppy in AV or the Junior in AVNSC. Mind you she will be 2 days off 12 months so won't look too lost in the junior class.

The clues are in the name ;)  An AVNSC classes are strictly that - AV not separately classified :)  Unfortunately age has nothing to do with it because if your breed is scheduled *at all*, even with only an open class, then you cannot enter AVNSC whether they have puppy classes or not.

HTH, regards, Teri

edited to add just re-read your post and I think you can strike what I just said as that wasn't your query (I'm obviously in need of chocolate :D )

In a last ditch attempt to understand myself :D here we go ;)

I'm guessing with your user name you have Labs .... but that could be a coincidence or you also have another breed.  Anyhooo, since you have Labs I'm thinking that the chances are you have a breed class or two?   If so, another lab puppy could be entered in breed (even if no puppy class was scheduled) and it would automatically be BPIB in which case, regardless of your success in AV puppy you could not then compete in the puppy group.

Most shows define which classes are eligible, outwith breed classes, to challenge for certain awards.  It's worthwhile checking before you enter if there is a clause stating winning exhibits of (say) classes 37, 44 and 65 are eligible to compete for BPIG or BPIS etc.

Hopefully this is clearer to you than it is to me reading back LOL - and  hopefully it's also closer to being an answer to your original query ....

(Have just a Flake - I think it helped!)  Teri :)

Most shows I've been to the AVNSC but not the AV winner has been in the Group. I have stewarded a few groups with an AV winner in as well though....

The AVNSC winner can't be a breed which is doubled up on in group competition because there are no breed classes for AVNSC :)  The best AV pastoral for eg could (in theory) be a dog which was beaten in it's breed competition or not entered in its breed class(es) at all.

Committees usually go to great lengths to ensure that there will be no likeliehood of clashes in AV competition so in some instances it will be made clear in a schedule that only certain class winners (with the exception of BOBs and, where applicable BPIBs) are elgible for group competition.  More often than not classes which are "AV" or "AV + group" are only are judged following the awards for BIS, RBIS, BPIS & RBPIS  :)

Hope this helps, Teri

Edited to add some time since I've gone to a non-breed open show but last two dogs I've shown each won AV pastoral puppy and were then eligible to go forward for BPIS but only dogs entered in that class and other AV group puppy classes were eligible so any pups entered in in breed classes had to also enter the AV puppy class for their group - but this was made clear in the schedules before entering and also in the catalogues on the day :)

Oh dear my head is spinning!!! LOL

Sorry should have said that it was not a lab, it is a basset hound (always worked labs, so new to showing above exemption level :) ) There was no breed class just AV hound and AVNSC hound and as AV hound had a puppy class this is why I entered rather that going up against the older dogs in junior in AVNSC.

I think I will just enter the junior class in AVNSC on my next show, thanks for all the info :):)

LOL - you and me both :D  Just do what I do and go from Companion Shows for practice (one time exemption) straight to champ shows - they know what they're doing there :D :D :D 

evan more confused now i have read these replys to my post!!!!
the dog which won best AV Working came from Open class. (He's 4 1/2.)
But on same day was entered in AVNSC as there wasn't a breed class for newfoundlands. (came 4th) before winning Av Working.
Its really great to have this message board as i have only been showing for 7 months and a lot is still new to me.
Although we have done very well so far.
My youngest (17 & 1/2 months) has had 2 best pup and one best of breed so far and the other dog has only been to 3 shows but has already one bob and best av working.
many thanks to all of you that have tried to answer my question.

>evan more confused now i have read these replys to my post!!!!

Ditto that - I'm thinking of darting up there and pressing delete :D :D :D  I reckon at least 2 Flakes and a Cream Egg were needed before I tried to tackle the wee red book :P

I started to try and explain what might have happened about the whole AV working and open classes and so on but when I read it back I couldn't make head nor tail of it so I think I'll leave the details to someone who still has the will to live (without serious chocolate support to hand ;) )

It is best to carefully read the rules in the schedule which tell you which dogs are eligible.  Different rrules aply if the show is on the group system or not.

Also both Veterans and puppies are exempt from entering breed classes, if there is no puppy class, so you can have two of a breed go through to the groups.

I was at a show not on group system, where my bitch was BOB, but BIS went to a bitch of my breed who had won the AV Veteran class.

Uh oh - which kind of chocs do you find best then Barbara (makes note to self that current cals are clearly insufficient :D )

Shh am supposed to be trying to shift the exxcess 6 stone.  My failing is Galaxy, the double bar offers in Iceland (300g chocolate goes down easy).

BAVNSC goes forward to the Group, and BAVNSC Puppy to the puppy group. BAV does NOT qualify for the group, but BAV Puppy CAN compete in the puppy group - as long as it has NOT been beaten by another puppy.

As can the unbeaten Veteran, not sure about the champion stakes winner if not in a breed class.

your show terms are way more confusing then ours!!!!! Kinda glad I cant show my dog in the UK.  I wouldnt have a clue what to do!!!!!!!

All we have is
Junior Puppy (6-9 months)
Senior Puppy (9-12 months)
Open (any dog that hasnt got championship)
Bred By (the person showing the dog, is the breeder of that dog)
Canadian Bred (open to all dogs born in Canada)
Specials (dog got his/her Championship)

Time to google all these short forms for the UK to at least know what you all are talking about lol

Crespin

I have shown 2 labs before both puppies. One was in the junior class for labs and won BPIB, his litter sister won AV puppy. Both went through to the group. My boy won the puppy group, the litter sister was 2nd in the puppy group. I was amazed a judge would do this but her write up said it all she loved them.
The boy then later under a different judge had BPIS.

"By Crespin Date 12.01.08 23:51 GMT  your show terms are way more confusing then ours!!!!! Kinda glad I cant show my dog in the UK.  I wouldnt have a clue what to do!!!!!!!

All we have is
Junior Puppy (6-9 months)
Senior Puppy (9-12 months)
Open (any dog that hasnt got championship)
Bred By (the person showing the dog, is the breeder of that dog)
Canadian Bred (open to all dogs born in Canada)
Specials (dog got his/her Championship)

Time to google all these short forms for the UK to at least know what you all are talking about lol

Crespin "

We have age classes and then classes based on wins.  Open is for all dogs who are champions or have won over a certain number of Limit and Open classes. 

I think the main reason is that dogs rarely become champions until several years of age so the classes between the Junior and the Open class with the champions would be very unfair with very raw young dogs and those of OK quality having to compete shoulder to shoulder with /champions or nearly champions.

In the US (not so sure about Canada) there seems an expectation that most quality animals shown will become champions, whereas in the UK that is not the case it is only the outstanding (or good and very lucky, with patient owner) dog that gains it's crown.

>>In the US (not so sure about Canada) there seems an expectation that most quality animals shown will become champions, whereas in the UK that is not the case it is only the outstanding (or good and very lucky, with patient owner) dog that gains it's crown<<

It seems that way.  But mostly, it has to do with the handler.  I have seen really awful dogs, oversized to the point it should be disqualified, still obtain CH because the handler is well known.

Our one bitch, it took 4 years to get her championship.  She had a lot of breed by defaults.  My breed, has very little competition out there, so to get a CH on one, its a big deal. 

But my other bitch, who has perfect movement, well put together, everything (well except for a great coat at the moment, and she has a bite issue - she doesnt have a true scissor bite).  She has gotten 6/10 points, with limited showing.  She only has never taken breed once.  And thats when she was a 6 month old pup. 

The UK show system seems interesting.  And the entries seem better for breeds.  I cant remember if it was on here, or another forum, that someone said they took class by beating 112 Goldens.  You'd be lucky to get that entry in the entire Sporting Group - what you call Gundog. 

Is it also true, that before your dog in the UK can be deemed a champion, it has to also excel in the area the dog was bred for.  For example. a gundog has to excell at field trials?  I heard this a while back, but still havent come across it.

The UK show system seems interesting.  And the entries seem better for breeds.  I cant remember if it was on here, or another forum, that someone said they took class by beating 112 Goldens.  You'd be lucky to get that entry in the entire Sporting Group - what you call Gundog.

Is it also true, that before your dog in the UK can be deemed a champion, it has to also excel in the area the dog was bred for.  For example. a gundog has to excell at field trials?  I heard this a while back, but still havent come across it.

You won't ever get 112 Goldens in the same CLASS, a normal sized Golden class at a championship show will be between 20 and 35 Goldens. However your average UK championsip show will have around 300 Goldens entered in total, with more at some -Crufts often have 600.

Gundogs get the title of SHOW Champion by winning 3 CCs at shows. To lose the "show" part and become a full Champion, i.e. the title of Champion, they need to pass a show gundog qualifier test. Other breeds simply get the title of Champion by the show wins, nothing else involved.

Gundogs get the title of SHOW Champion by winning 3 CCs at shows. To lose the "show" part and become a full Champion, i.e. the title of Champion, they need to pass a show gundog qualifier test. Other breeds simply get the title of Champion by the show wins, nothing else involved

cool thanks for clearing that up for me.

"Is it also true, that before your dog in the UK can be deemed a champion, it has to also excel in the area the dog was bred for"

lol, that would make for pretty interesting competitions-fair enough for sporting and pastoral but how would toy's do it? see if they sit companionably on someones lap? i'd be a bit worried for mine...go out in the dead of night and jump on a poacher (sounds pretty fun actually)

Gundogs get the title of SHOW Champion by winning 3 CCs at shows. To lose the "show" part and become a full Champion, i.e. the title of Champion, they need to pass a show gundog qualifier test. Other breeds simply get the title of Champion by the show wins, nothing else involved.

Border Collies also get the title of Show Champion, until they've passed a herding test. To date, there's only been 1 Champion Border Collie (the rest of them are Show Champion) so they've recently changed the test to encourage more to take it.

I think the biggest difference between the UK and US systems is that our Kennel Club tries to encourage strength of of competition by limiting the number of CC's on offer to a breed each year, and also existing champions compete for the CC's.

For example on the day My Jozi got her first CC at our club Championship show with RBIS, she beat 11 existing champions, as well as the rest of the bitch entry.  She now has 10 CC's under different judges
(more than 3 times the number for her title).

this means that all breeds do not have certificates at all championship shows.  I would expect Goldens do, and have lots of breed clubs too of which many will have CC's. In some breed the competition is very strong.

In my won numerically small breed they still ensure an entry of 40 to 70 dogs at all breed championship shows and 50 to 120 at the two bred club championship shows, by limiting us to 19 sets of CC's a year.

The argument would be that if all the shows had CC's then fewer dogs would competed for them at  given show.

In my breed each year between 3 and 6 exhibits gain their titles.  They are most often 3 to 5 years of age.  A dog in the UK cannot become a champion until it has won a CC over 12 months of age, but in most breeds puppies rarely win CC's.

Lastly there are very few 'Handlers' in the US sense of the word, and dogs are handled by their owners or a friend will take a dog in for you when you have more than one in competition.  In some breeds people will charge a fee for running a dog like in GSD's where many people cannot manage to handle.

In Malinois we only have 8 sets of CC each year so despite small numbers not all that easy to make up a Champion.

>Other breeds simply get the title of Champion by the show wins, nothing else involved.

Not quite right Border Collies also need to prove their herding ability before becoming a full champion.

My dog is in the toy group, not sure if it is in the UK, but the pins are actually terrier type dogs.  I guess they could do something related to terrier work.  Maybe toys could have to go through to be a therapy dog or something, as they were bred to be companions.  Toys like the toy poodle, and the maltese.

Edited to add:  I was replying to the following post

lol, that would make for pretty interesting competitions-fair enough for sporting and pastoral but how would toy's do it? see if they sit companionably on someones lap? i'd be a bit worried for mine...go out in the dead of night and jump on a poacher (sounds pretty fun actually)

I KNEW there was some breed I forgot -BCs! :) Cheers.