Hi Everyone

I was wondering what points (if any) you get if you win 1st in Puppy class (3 entries), Best Puppy, Best of Breed, Terrier Group 4 & Terrier Puppy Group 1. At an all breed open show (Lincoln Canine Society).

Many Thanks and Merry Christmas

Paul

Hi Padhen

At open shows you win 1 point for each breed class you were in, ie if you won puppy and junior it would be 2 points, unfortunately you dont get any extra points for winning BOB, or group Placings! Bit mean really.
You only get a point for BOB if there were less than 3 in your class ie 2 in puppy but then if there were more than 3 together and you got bob you could have a point .

Sorry ive not written that very well have I?  Anyway you have one point today, but you have done fantastic with your wins here!! well done

You would of course get a point towards the show Certificate of merit for BOB, or for Best Not Separately Classified (all breeds or group) if there are no breed classes.  Also points from 4 to 1 for adult group places. For ShCM therte is no minimum numbers in the class ro breed.

To clarify Open show win (has to be three in class)  1 point per class win
             Champ shows     "               "             "    3 points per class win

They keep changing JW rules, when my first boy got his, you had to have 4 or 5 champ wins then the rest open shows and you couldnt have points from more than one show in a weekend, which I thought was a good rule as probably prevented very young puppys being dragged round to numerous shows on the same weekend.

Has changed now and think you only need 1 champ win and rest can be open shows with no limit on number of shows in a weekend?

Can someone confirm this is right pls?

Has to be 3 champ show wins and 3 open show wins.  Prior to that you had to win 10 classes at Open shows and for my breed that is the hardest thing to get and while that rule stood no-one got a JW.

My Jozi won over 30 points but only six classes at Open shows with the required minimum exhibits.  One show she won two breed classes, RBOB, then several stakes classes yet still didn't get a single point even though she had won a CC in Junior she still didn't get her JW.  Her daughter got a JW when the rules changed to 3 classes but never from puppy classes even though she went BPIB at champ shows ans won a Puppy stakes and a puppy group place at champ shows.

When we were trying I thought it was 1 Champ show win and 1 open win, and the rest could be either? My favourite gripe is that I think that a BOB SHOULD count - I know it doesn't, but I think it should, if you have 3 dogs in the challenge and win it, it should count as a class win surely. We missed by 3 points, but would have had it with loads to spare if that was the case! If only I'd heard of the thing before he was 13 months old! :-(

Lucy Dogs wrote "When we were trying I thought it was 1 Champ show win and 1 open win, and the rest could be either? My favourite gripe is that I think that a BOB SHOULD count - I know it doesn't, but I think it should, if you have 3 dogs in the challenge and win it, it should count as a class win surely. We missed by 3 points, but would have had it with loads to spare if that was the case! If only I'd heard of the thing before he was 13 months old!".
LucyDogs, I wrote to the KC, and BOB DOES count, even when you have the only dog there, it is 1 point. I don't agree with that, I think there should be 3 present, which is why I wrote to the KC as a friend had said the BOB does count even if less than 3 present, I have a letter confirming it. So if you think your dog missed out on it because of this (don't know how long ago it was), it is worth claiming it. All of mine got theirs the hard (old) way.

Kay

Has to be 3 champ show wins and 3 open show wins.  Prior to that you had to win 10 classes at Open shows and for my breed that is the hardest thing to get and while that rule stood no-one got a JW

Not a numerically strong breed either and I got Mia's the 'hard' way by the time she was 15 months old and in the F&M year too!    Think she would've had it by a year had all shows gone to plan!    She just won everything, I was very lucky to have a dog that every judge appreciated.

Yes when Jozi missed out it was F&M year, and she wasn't shown until she was 10 months old, and we missed quite a few Open shows because of cancellation due to F&M.  she did actually win more than 10 Open show classes, but only 6 had 3 or more entries.  At one show she won the bitch challenge and was beaten for BOB by the only dog entered.

I don't drive so don't do that many shows, and I think she was hardly ever beaten until she was in Limit and Open.

Raider would have got his JW under the tighter rules at sixteen months in 2003, but they relaxed the rules before then and he got it at thirteen months instead :)  He was lucky in that there were plenty of youngsters being shown at that time in the North, even at Open Shows, and I entered multiple classes at Club Open Shows which he was good enough to win.
I think at the moment, it would be very hard to get the JW with ten classes at Open Show in our breed.

>Has to be 3 champ show wins and 3 open show wins.

Just for clarification (sorry if I'm reading it wrong or can't see a correction elsewhere) - current rules are that it has to be at least 3 champ show POINTS (i.e. one class win, not three) and three open show points (i.e. three class wins) - the remainder of the points can come from either type of show.

M.

So Padhen from the wins you describe, you have won 1 Junior Warrant point, for the 1st in Puppy class (assuming it was a breed class and not an AV class) In addition, your dog has gained 2 Show Certificate of Merit points. 1 for Best of Breed, and 1 for Terrier Group 4.

Congratulations, you have done really well there.

Dawn R.

Thanks everyone for the replies

Just another question if we win a 1st at an open breed club show would that entitle us to a JW point as well? Also what points do we need to get to gain the Show Certificate of Merit?

Thanks for the congratulations it was a bit of a surprise as the young lady in question is only just 8 months.

Paul

Yes, a class win at a breed club Open Show does entitle the dog to claim a JW point, as long as there were 3 or more dogs present in the class.

Dawn R.

The Show Certificate of Merit is 25 points at general and group open shows.

5 points for BIS at an All-Breeds open show
4 points for BIS at a single-group show
4 points for Group 1
3 points for Group 2
2 points for Group 3
1 point for Group 4

1 point for BOB or best AVNSC [group NSC or best overall NSC]

At least 5 points must be won in group competition - if a dog wins four points for a group win and then five more for BIS, it must still win at least one more point in group competition at another show.

The minimum number of shows in which a ShCM can be won is three.

Well done for your lovely win!

M.

I hate when people discredit awards even if they mean to or not   I know there are certainly less JWs in our breed than there used to be as the open show points are very hard to get due to low entries so how it is easier. I think those gaining them after a long hard struggle would disagree. I certainly do.

They haven't in my opinion been made easier it is because entries have dropped so you have to balance tweek the schemes to tie in with the show pattern at the time and alter it as the dog scheme changes.

The JW is very hard to get if you want to get you points at open shows still as the entries are so low.  Years ago people used to knock the points up at the open shows. Now most have to come from Champshows.

I got the ShCM  last year on one of mine I was very pleased when I achieved it but I wouldn't say it was easy..

>I hate when people discredit awards even if they mean to or not

Sorry, now I'm the one who's confused. Where is anyone discrediting either of these schemes? I got a JW this year, and was also extremely pleased to do it, and agree that the open shows are the hardest even just for the three points.

M.

I wasn't replying to you honestly Lily Mc  LOL :-D  :-D  :-D 

I know you you got yours this year I was generalising when people say they got it when it was hard to get, like it is easier now, because it isn't.   It has changed to be more aligned with today's show world but still as hard as far as I can see. There are less getting it in my breed that before because of the open show entries.

LOL, no discredit here then, I was chuffed to little mintballs to get mine! I had heard the stud book number was being removed from the JW this year, but thankfully didn't happen - I wonder if that will happen next year?

M.

I was chuffed to little mintballs to get mine!

So you should be  :-)   I have a numerically high breed so this type of awards are very special. 

It was made much harder from the time there had to be a minimum number of dogs in the classes.

I think this is aimed at me!

In my breed open show classes for Puppy or Junior are non-existant so when Mia was in this age range I only had one option - to enter her in for Graduate or Post Graduate, at one show I went the whole hog and entered her in all 3 classes - PG, L & O, she won all 3 & BOB too.   My breed is numerically tiny compared to the more popular breeds, as I say she was a dog every judge appreciated.

I think this is aimed at me!

Not you personally Christine just anyone discrediting the JW award or any award now when it is " equally"  as hard and important. :-)  I don't personally have it with any of mine as we just don't get the entries in the breed classes at open shows. 

In my breed open show classes for Puppy or Junior are non-existant so when Mia was in this age range I only had one option - to enter her in for Graduate or Post Graduate,

That is the exact same as it is now for every other exhibitor.  These things have not changed. We don't even get puppy classes we are lucky if we get an open class.

All awards vary in difficulty to achieve, depending on the breed, location in the country etc. For e.g. CC's may be "sometimes" easier to win in some lower numerical breeds, but not always, as the breed could be dominated by one or two breeders people just can't get passed.

Similarly for the JW. When there are high numbers in classes, in can be difficult to beat the competetion.
The only difference being is at Open Shows, now that folk can claim a BOB point-when a class point wasn't won, (even if they had the only dog there), does make it easier for some, when there are low entries, especially as now, only 3 of these points are required and the rest can come from anywhere, Open or Champ.

I don't think anyone thinks these awards are easy to gain, but they do vary in difficulty. 

Kay

We have far fewer dogs in my breed win a Junior Warrant than become champions.

The only difference being is at Open Shows, now that folk can claim a BOB point-when a class point wasn't won, (even if they had the only dog there), does make it easier for some, when there are low entries,

.... and bare in mind yu still have to get 25 of these points, so even if you get what your are required to get from a champshow you still have 22 ? x 1 point BOBs which is hard work to get them in by the time the dog is 18 months AND I would be suprised someone could find  22 shows where they could be there on their own to get BOB I would be suprised with such low classes if there was even a breed class on.

Most open shows don't have my breed class at all now well at least 50%  and we have reasonably high entries at champshows, always 100 plus for a very high number over the 150.

I may be being thick here, but points have confused me
How do you make a champion?

You need to win three Challenge Certificates (CCs) from three different judges. CCs are awarded in pairs (generally; I think there are occasional exceptions), one to the Best Dog and one to the Best Bitch in Breed at championship shows.

Thank you, I will sleep tonight now!!

And, additional to JGs comments, the dog/bitch has to win at least 1 of the CCs when over the age of 12 months so, for eg, a puppy could win 5CCs and never gain it's champion title if it failed to be awarded a further CC after it's 1st birthday (this in theory would be an unlikely event but not impossible if say the dog had an accident which meant it couldn't be shown or was no longer as desirable etc)

regards Teri