Hi there

I'm new to the board (but have lurked for a couple of years) and I'm in the process of buying my first show dog so need a bit of advice really.

I have the opportunity to buy a lovely pup (best bitch of the litter conformationally) but she has a calf lick, which extends from the middle of her nose up to between her eyes.  As she is black it is not devestatingly obvious but you CAN see it nevertheless and what I really need advice on is what do judges say about calf licks/zips?  Is it really a terrible thing? Is it hereditary?  Obviously the breeder has been really helpful and seems to think it isn't a problem and while I trust her implicitly, I would like more opinions on the matter...just to make sure I'm not falling at the first hurdle!

She is a super pup, perfect for my needs really but this 'flaw' (if it is one) is putting me off a little...but only based on the fact that I'm not sure what the opinions of them are.

Any views or comments are most welcome.  Thank you so much in advance.

Lucy

I never knew it was called that, I assume you mean a ridge of fur on the face? Funnily enough we seem to have those in abudance here! One of my Malinois bitches has had 2 such pups. Our rescue Labrador has one, and my Papillon bitch has one too! I really don't know about showing if the breed has huge numbers and stiff competition but certainly in the pup I bred that is shown with it, it has done him no harm at all in the ring.(But there of course there are never huge numbers.)

Welcome out of lurkdom! :)

this really is a difficult one... the breed standard does state.. "without curl or wave" , and a calf lick is not the nicest thing to see on a Labrador...very few with these really make the grade... even with the best conformation... remember you are up against others with as good as or better in the ring... without the calflick....

A zip on the other hand, while not desirable, simply because it can detract from the 'gentle' looks required from a lab (it can harshen looks on an older dog) it will should not lose you a deserved placing based on the rest of the dog... my best girl Xanthe had a cracker of a zip.. right across the bridge of her nose.. AND she was yellow... this literally split her face in half... but because she was of such excellent conformation.. it was overlooked...

I love the way it was described by another well known Lab person... the 'zip' is the seam left after shoving the brains in :D :D

Personally... if it was a truly obvious calflick, then I wouldnt have it for showing... but please take that as my own personal opinion... one would really need to see the dog and possibly go over it for a true and accurate determination of show suitability

Right, I don't think I have described it properly.  So what you are saying Kay, is that a zip and a calf lick are not necessarily the same thing?  Is that right?  Only the breeder (a championship judge in our breed) described it as both.....I have googled my eyes out in the attempt to find what I mean but sadly cannot!  Typical!

Maybe I didn't describe it effectively enough so I'll try again - it's a little ridge, about 1-2mm in width running down her stop - it doesn't curl or wave, it just LOOKS like a small line of hair growing thicker than the rest on her head.  Apparently, as she has grown, it has become less obvious.

Is this a calf lick or a zip? Or both? Or neither? :D

Thanks once again!

Thats better :D  Lucy,, thats a zip.. called that because its simply a straight line when the hair runs in two direction and meets to give a little rigde...

Calflicks are curls... with a slight gap in the centre.. imagine the crown on your head.. where the hair looks as if it grown in a crop cirle ... or better still.. find a cow or calf and look at the huge curls they have on their forehead :D

what you have now described sounds most definately like a zip... and its not really a big problem.. there are a few top labs out there just now with them... and as I said, my Xanthe had one too....

If it is just a zip, with absolutely no curl at all.. then, no.. its not a problem in the ring.. some judges dont particularly like them and will class it as a fault.. but I wouldnt, and many more dont...

So, If you feel confident enough, and the pup is as good as you say, then dont let the zip put you off... calflick yes.. but not the zip...

hope that helped :D

There's a lab I know with just such a ridge from her stop right down the length of her muzzle, where the hair grows towards the middle rather than to the sides. It gives her quite a hard stare and I'd have thought in good competition would definitely lose her several placings.

It can lose you placings Jan, which I did say in my initial reply, but if the dog has perfect conformation and the zip is not too pronounced, or detracts too much from the overall 'gentle' expression,  it can be overlooked... but, like everything else.. depends on the competition... There are a lot of Labs out in the ring at the moment with a slight zip, and winning at the highest level, and Lucy has said that it is lessening in intesity as the pup is getting older....

Lucy.. just to ask more questions.. as we do ;)  If this girl is the pick of the litter, why is the breeder not keeping the pup for herself...

Thanks!!   :D

She isn't pick of the litter - a dog is pick and the breeder is keeping him ;)

sorry, misread your original post.. best bitch, I read as pick, sorry, my mistake...

another question...does the zip run the length of the stop, and thats it.. or does it run down the length of the muzzle to the nose?

It runs from level with the brow line, down the stop and peters out just as the muzzle starts. 

This is my only reservation about her, I like her conformation, her pedigree is excellent, her parents are how I like my Labradors (middle weight) and well, as my foundation brood bitch, I am MORE than pleased to welcome her here.  I won't only be showing her, but working her too so when the package is looked at as a whole, I don't see it as a HUGE issue...even less so now with your input! So thanks again :D

Hi Lucy

Im a new poster to the board too, although I have lurker for a long time and only just figured out how you post!

I would have thought a calf lick or zip as some are calling it is not ideal for a showdog, although it is only a small section of fur if it is on the face it is highly noticeable.
My breed is black too, and I have seen calf licks , little whirls on the faces or neck which dont alter the appearance of the dog at all, but I have also seen the "zip" type which I think you are referring too, in some cases it can ruin the expression as it totally cuts the face in half, they can also become more defined with age.
If your new puppy is to become a pet and you are only going to show her once in a while if shes the one you like I would go for her, but if you really want to do well in the show ring I think you'd be wise to pick another.

A judge in my breed commented recently on calf licks spoiling expressions etc...in her critique, like others have said if you are in the ring with equally well put together dogs and its down to the head/espression etc... you could lose out.
Its a shame but dog shows are beauty contests. !

Calflicks and zips are completely different things... calflicks are totally undesirable.. they are curls.. and the breed standard requires 'no wave or feathering'

however.. if the zip is small and does not detract from the facial expression, AND if the pup is of exceptional show quality then a zip is not going to lose a place...

this is something that has been argued in our breed for a while, along with 'bolo' pads.. some judges will throw out a dog with Bolo's, bearing in mind that they should have been bred out over 40 years ago.. but they are still appearing.. and they are still winning... the overall conformation is what counts.

I bred a litter a couple of years ago.. and kept the best bitch and best dog.. the bitch has a zip.. and she was yellow, so it was very noticable.. but her conformation was excellent.. and she kept on winning..

It is down to yourself Lucy, If you feel comfortable with the pup, knowing that their may be a chance that she may not turn out to be as good a quality as you hope, then the zip will go against her... you need to trust you own judgement...

Well it isn't an issue in my breed, some people don't care for it, some like it, and judges don't fault it.  On the other hand I know these ridges as they refer to them in dobes are faulted in that breed, but they are often on the neck in those.

I have had two with this feature and my younger champion bitch is one of them.  I know several other champions with this too.

I have seen it in various breeds, it can rather spoil the expression, sometimes giving rather a hard look. I have known goods dogs with is do well, but the smae dogs be knocked a place or 2 because of it. Different judges will have different ideas. The problem you may have is that the numbers in Labs are huge. Could it be cleverly trimmed out for a show. If the bitch is as good as the breeder says it is then it may be worth the risk, if only to have a good bitch to breed on from, any show success being a bonus. You say she is perfect for your needs apart from this, well depending on what your needs are she may be worth a shot.

Hi Lucy, to my mind, if it's decreasing as she grows and she is the type, style and good conformation for a brood bitch that you want, then I would snap her up. A minor imperfection is nowt really, I wouldn't knock her if I was Judging...I would far rather see a sound, well put together dog! A bit of creative scissoring can really work wonders too! You can use a pair of thinning scissors to nibble away at the edges to make it less noticable. Like others have said if it doesn't detract from her good looks, well, go with it! All the best and good luck, Dawn

But is it hereditary? If so, then disguising it by scissoring is tantamount to fraud, surely? Just like altering any part of the natural conformation?

It would be very difficult to scissor out.. and I certainly would leave well alone..

Jan, not sure about hereditary, neither my girl nor the stud had this zip, nor as far as I am aware did any of grandparents.. cant be sure about anything further back.. my girl had 11 pups in the litter.. only one with the zip, and she was the pick of the litter.. well toss up between her and the boy.. so I kept both boy and girl.. her zip was very noticable being a yellow.. giving her a brown zip.. now chances are, if she wasnt pick of litter, but just the 'best girl', I would not have kept her, NOR would I have sold her to a show home.... obviously, If I wasnt prepared to take her into the ring, I certainly would not want anyone else to... but her conformation overshadowed her zip, some judges may have taken it into consideration, but she was well placed at every single show I ever entered her for, never booted once.... unfortunately, her untimely death means I will never know truly how she would have fared above graduate, and into the 'big league' as it were, but she had promise, and the zip never detracted from that...

yes. I have seem some dreadful zips on some dogs.. from the occiput down muzzle to edge of nose, giving a very harsh and strange look to a Lab, in these cases, it would be a major fault... but have also seen some zips just on the stop itself (where the majority are) and some have been very faint and not detracted from the look.... conformation is what it is all about.

Without actually seeing just how prominent this zip is, it really is difficult to say yeah or ney to someone.. personally, a good dog, small zip, I wouldnt have a problem, and certainly if judging, would not fault it on a good dog

One of my bitches like I said had 2 pups with it, two different litters, different sires and the first one was the accidental crossbred litter so first one not even same breed -hence I have always assumed she does carry it.

If anyone wants to see what these looks like,  find my website and if searching well enough :) can find a photo of our Lab (Pippin), The Papillon bitch (Ginny) and also of a black crossbreed (Xanda) and a Mali pup Fionn. I won't be allowed to put links to my own website here but the photos are there and if anyone wants closer directions to find them PM me.
(Just updating my site and it's being slow, probably best not to look for it until Monday!)

Hi Lucy, I am also a serial lurker, and this is my first post.  I just wanted to say whatever you decide, i wish you the very best of luck with her. 

If it is a zip as you describe, and she has many attributes, i would say go for her. Will any of us ever find that "perfect dog", and if we do, there is no saying what we consider perfect, others will too. 

Look at the whole picture, and good luck x  

Rather a zip on a head than a pair of straight shoulders, the latter is a lot harder to breed out!

Lucy and Jac, are you both who I think you are :D   if so, welcome to CD :D :D

Hi Kay, thanks for the welcome :)

Personally, I wouldn't want a pup with a calf lick/zip etc, as I feel it can ruin the whole expression of a Labrador, especially for one that you wish to show, it may be only a minor fault? but with so many Labrador pups being bred and not just for the pet market, I feel that there would always be an oportunity for you to get, conformationally, just as good a pup without a calf lick form another breeder :)

I can't believe such a minor thing would even be remarked upon let alone considered a fault.

In popular, numerically strong breeds 'the devil's in the detail', and what might be considered insignificant in smaller (number-wise) breeds can make all the difference in a large class of quality animals, when the judge has to really nit-pick to get the best line-up.

I am sure even in a quality entry there would still be much bigger nits to pick than that.

You have to be realistic about this... on the whole is is a very debatable issue...

In a sense Denise is right.... why pick a pup with a 'flaw' when there are so many good dogs out there without this. I suppose my concern would be just how good this pup really will be.  I bred my pup with the zip, totally different to going out and purchasing one... and have been thinking about it... Would I buy a pup with a zip, no matter how good it was... I honestly cant say I would... and just to add to that, most of the dogs winning in the ring at the moment, with zips, have been bred by their owners... and kept because they ARE the pick of the litter.... not just a best of sex... even the best of sex can be a crap dog (sorry)

In our breed we really are up against the odds... there are some damned good dog out there.. and with this being you 1st show dog, yes, I appreciate you will be working it also... but you intend her to be your foundation brood bitch too...and as JG asked.. is this hereditary?? would anything you breed from her, give an even more prominant zip? why not think about it a little more...Is there a great reason to rush into it, there may be something better out there (maybe not)...

think about it.. in minor buppy bitch at championship shows, you can be in a class of up to 40 dogs.. my 1st champ show was a class of 42....

something as silly as this should have an easy and straighforward answer,, but this is your 1st showdog... take care and time over your choice ;)

Hi Lucy.. see you have your new girl... someone has just sent me a link to a photograph of her.. VERY nice :D   she is lovely even with the zip.. it does not detract from her at all... I hope you do well with her.. love her breeding lol...

Ooh let me know where I can see the photo please:D

have PM'd you the link

Me too Kay please!

Thanks Kay.  I think there is a lot to like about her and have already started my shortlist of potential husbands based on her weak areas at the moment.  I'm sure that will all change as she matures though.  I'm VERY excited about this little bitch and can't tell you HOW thankful I am to Lynne for letting me have her.  Thrilled I am!  Absolutely THRILLED!!