I'm hoping somebody can offer me advice .... I have a 4 mth old english setter; a real sweetheart. Originally fed on raw meat with holistic biscuit, as per breeders advice, which I continued when we brought her home. After consultation with my vet, he advised me that he personally wouldn't feed raw meat. I weaned her off it over 10 days (ish) and tried her on a couple of dry complete diet, being careful to introduce slowly. In the end we settled on JWB. Very eager at first, but became disinterested in it after a while, but I stuck with it as I felt she had had enough dietry changes recently.

10 days or so ago, she suffered with bad diahorrea and became lethargic and disinterested. Took her to the vet who put her on the Hills tinned prescription diet. Also took faeces sample which came back with nothing. Poos improved slightly but took her back to see the vet. He said to me that we need to get her poos right on the Hills before we can introduce anything different. I can see the logic with this.  He also prescribed the Hills dry which I am supplementing in the tinned stuff.

Yesterday, she did a reasonably formed poo! Still softer than it should be, but certainly better than lately. (I found myself visiting it a couple of times to admire it ..... How sad I am!!) Anyway, last night, she woke us up whining, I let her out and saw her do the most hideous diahorrea - really awful. This morning she is much quieter than normal.

I'm sorry to go on like this, but I really am at my wits end.  Poor love, I just don't know what to do for the best. Any advice please? ......

My Irish Setter pup was like this when he was about 3 months old, he was on Burns and his poos went really runny and mucusy.  Im not saying it was the food  but I had some tinned stuff from the vets for a few days then put him onto plain tripe then started adding other stuff and he put on a decent amount of weight and his poos went back to normal almost straight away, he is now 13 months old and doing really well.  I would go back to what the breeder was feeding it obviously suited him, vets generally try to sell you what food they sell anyway JMHO :)

Definitely revert, slowly, to your breeder's diet.  She obviously knows what suits her dogs best, please be guided by her!  I bet she'd be horrified if she knew you were feeding a complete food!! :)

Lets get one thing straight Vets are not nutritionists, in fact they do about 2 days on nutrition during their trainign and these classes are sponsored or run by one of the large pet food companies.

Dogs are omnivorous carnivores and their digestive systems are designed to cope with anumal protein as thei main source of food.  they can also handle food that contains bacteria etc as that is what theiur bodies are designed for as they woudl scavenge a large proportion of their food.  therrefore feeding a diet containing raw meat from animals passedas fit for human consumption stored (usually frozen, which will kill many pathogens) they are very unlikely to have problems.

You have changed your pups diet that the breeder carefully reared him onto from one designed for his species to oen that is primarily grain which dogs find hard to digest, so they have to be highly processed.

I would slowly put him onto something more like that which he was rered on, starting with perhaps a complete producet like nature diet.

I have in the past fed my dogs a primarily Raw diet and on complete.  they have done equally well on both, but whenusign complete I have always goen for one that had as high a meat content as possible and digetible grains. 

My favourite has been the Arden Grange products which are similarily priced to many, but have better ingredients than most of the ones pushed by the Vets.

As my dogs have always had complete feeds they do not seem to ahve any problems on whatever food they are on, casrt Iron stomachs, so the cheaper but quite reasonably high in chicken meal Autarky is a favourite with them too.

As for the tins he is on now you could do just as well if you bought some chicken mince and boilded some rice and fed these with a vitamin supplement until his motions settle.  Also a good dollop of LIVE yogurt will also help with the looseness.

The vet gave me a tube of probiotic stuff, I think it was kaolin or something which was fantastic which I suppose would do the same job as natural yogurt :)

No Kaolin is not a probiotic it is a clay.  It will bind a dog and reduce looseness, but it also binds clacium and stops yoru dog absorbing it, so not a good idea to use too often in a growing pup.

Live yogurt is a probiotic, and yoiu can buy capsules, but bit pointless as he will enjy the yogurt and live bio yogurt is quite reasonably priced compared to these.

I could have sworn it said probiotic on the tube the vet gave it to me after the antibiotics didnt work.

I will have to have a look when I go home if ive still got it.

Perhaps it is a kaolin/probiotic mix which seem like a good idea, except yoghurt is probably cheaper :) but then if you need to give the kaolin as well....

Thank you for your reply. I had thought about Nature Diet as an alternative. Is this something I can feed with a mixer? And presumably it must be introduced slowly as well?

I would say it would be impossible to study anatomy, physiology and aetiology without an indepth understanding of nutrition. They may have talks from food companies on effective ways of delivering that nutrition, although as I have never seen a vet school prospectus I'm can't say for certain ;) but I don't really think it is setting "things straight" to suggest that is the sum total of their understanding on the subject :)

I would be very interested know what people who feed their dogs complete food think of feeding raw food. I am losing confidence in my own opinion!!

Many thanks.

Hi Loanerwhelk,

The *BEST* advice you can take for feeding your youngster is definitely from your breeder.  After all from your original post she was fine until your vet started meddling with her diet and since then she's not exactly perked up :(   There are always protracted feeding debates on here about raw v complete and at the end of the day it's all down to personal choice - however I would suggest that since you had a happy healthy puppy when being fed on the breeder's recommendations then unless for some reason you have an aversion to feeding raw you revert to that diet.  Why not discuss things in depth with your breeder before seeking advice elsewhere - it can be very confusing ;)

I hope your puppy feels better soon.  Good luck Teri

Teri,

The voice of reason .......!! I was thinking of contacting my breeder today!! Although, referring to an earlier response, I hope she isn't horrified.....!!
Everyone has offered good, helpful advice, although as you say, there will always be great debates as to complete v raw.  You have restored my somewhat flaky trust in my own instinct!!

No problem - everyone will try and help you on here and no-one's advice is wrong per se, it's just that when it all boils down to it we each make choices based on how well (or not) our own dogs do on particular diets and the fact that we all have different experiences is because no two dogs are necessarily the same :)

Re the paste you got from your vet, was it made by Protexin and called "Pro-kolin"?  If so, it is made up of a mix of probiotics, kaolin and pectin and does work very well - but I'd not want to use it long term as it can mask symptoms.  Good to have at home for really bad bouts as an emergency though ;)   Bio yoghurt is certainly *much* cheaper and probably a more soothing sensation on the gut and Slippery Elm is a great natural cure for loose motions too.  Many of us on here are stong believers in probiotics (available from health food shops) and bio yoghurt so that advice shouldn't be too contentious :P

Anyway, good luck with your breeder and keep us posted.  Best wishes, Teri :)   

Hi Teri,

It was me with the Pro-kolin - and yes thats what it was called :)

Claire

Oops, sorry Claire :rolleyes:  I'm easy confused :P

Teri

If you ring your breeder with an 'I think I may have taken the wrong turning here';) rather than 'the pup that you sold me isn't thriving!':o I'm sure that she'll be only too glad to steer you back onto the straight and narrow! :)

Way to go Val, definitely :P 

Teri ;)

This really does not sound like a dietary problem to me, it sounds more like your puppy has picked up a bug which is resistant to antibiotics. 

Until your pup is backon track I would be inclined to feed her small amounts of bland cooked white meat, like chicken.  You can add a little boiled rice if you are inclined, but it's not necessary.  

Remembering that raw meats can carry nasty bacteria, I would not feed raw until she and her immune system is back to normal. 

Stacey

I bet your vet is sitting there rubbing his hands together thinking, i scared another one away from a species appropriate diet and got them onto the junk we sell :rolleyes:

Your vet is obviously seeing with his own eyes what a dramatic downfall your dog is doing since talking you into feeding processed food,instead of advising you to go back with what works he has decided to pump your dog full of drugs :( Your vet sounds like a very close minded person,i wouldnt want someone with that attitude treating my dog!

Brainless is right,vets are NOT nutritionalists,nor are they gods who know everything about everything,the vet i had prior to my raw feeding vet knew close to nothing about nutrition other than what he stocked on his shelves,i knew more about a species appropriate diet than he did,i once threw a few pretty simple nutrition questions his way,to which he did not have the answers to :( I trust my vets to diagnose and treat illness in my dogs,but if i want feeding advice i will go see a canine nutritionalist :)

I really think you should speak to your breeder,naturally she will know more about your pup then your vet ;)

I also wasnt too sure what my breeder would say when Fagan was poorly as a pup and lost loads of weight, because I felt responsible for changing him from Beta which he was reared on to Burns which I believed to be a better food. She contacted me in the end because someone she knows saw him and obviously mentioned he was a little on the thin side.  She was great about it and suggested putting him on tripe to settle his stomach and it really worked, she also suggested pro-kolin which my vet had already given me.  The majority of breeders only want the best for their dogs and have experienced most things so should be able to give you some advice :) 

The majority of breeders only want the best for their dogs and have experienced most things so should be able to give you some advice :-)

Yep,so dont be scared ;) :p

Clairey did you breeder get you to put your dog back on beta? :o

As others have already mentioned probiotics are excellent in these situations,they should always be given if there is a diet switch,or the dog has diareah or has been put on antibiotics etc. I give my guys a capsule every other day,yogurt may be ok for maintenance dose but if you really want a kick than i would go with the capsules,you would have to feed 22 tubs of yogurt to get the same benefit of one of the capsules that i give :) I stay away from supps designed for pets,i only give 'human grade' supplements as they are often stronger, and are more quality controlled(much better quality) than the pet stuff.

The bacteria in yoghurt multiplies at a prodigous rate when introduced to the warmth of the gut, try leaving a yoghurt out of the fridge on a really warm day and you will see what I mean :)

Nope, she actually recommended me to feed plain tripe in order to get his stomach back right.  She never told me to go back on to Beta in fact she had already changed the pup she kept from Beta to something else. She didnt actually recommended any complete food to me, she knows what I feed as does Alfies breeder, I dont think they entirely approve of me not feeding any complete but my dogs look good and are very healthy so appart from the odd comment about bones getting stuck in the throat ( :rolleyes: ) im generally left to my own devices ;)

edit to say : past came out in the wrong place, it was actually in response to Frodo :)

Dear all,

Had a mad day yesterday and so was unable to post the latest.  Rang my breeder Tuesday afternoon and had a good chat. She was really helpful, and although she didn't say .... "Right, this is what you do ...", she gave me a lot of sound advice and said that in her experience, none of her dogs have done well on complete foods. She did not stipulate that I should be feeding raw - a part of me wished that she would, actually (I'm hopeless at being decisive) She recommended Slippery Elm and yoghurt, (of course) and said she will ring me again if she can think of anything else. (I'm seeing her next month anyway).

I think my nervousness to feed raw is down to the fact that I just don't feel I know enough about it. Can anyone recommend a good book perhaps??
When I brought Rosie home at 10 wks, I was feeding her Wholebake Holistic biscuit mixed with minced chicken, tripe, chicken & liver, and beef. This I bought frozen from Pets at Home. She was fairly indifferent about it to be honest which is partly why I changed her over - maybe I wasn't making it varied enough?

Thanks all for your advice, etc. I've had such good responses from everyone. Perhaps someone could suggest some good reading?

Kymythy Shultze: natural nutrition for dogs and cats.

Ian Billinghurst:1)Give your dog a bone. 2)Grow your pup with bones.

Feeding your dog raw is not rocket science and it's not really that hard either,however if anyone was thinking about feeding their dogs this way the most important thing they can do is research,research and research. Join a few raw sites,Britbarf is a good one :)

There are some idiots out there who think the BARF diet consists of tossing their dog a hunk of meat everyday :rolleyes:

It is bewildering as the choice of what you can feed is endless, many moons ago with our second dog an Irish Setter Bitch drove me to distraction when she stopped eating!Now as a breeder I do find it annoying when my advice (diet sheet) is totally ignored in favour of the vet or so and so at the dog club! Since the vets intervention on the dietary front you seem to have had nothing but problems.Glad to hear you have been in touch with your breeder and hope the problem is soon resolved.

i would perhaps try your dog on nature diet, it seems to be the 'cooked version of barf', it shouldnt contain anything that your dog may be allergic to in the other foods. 

Does ur dog have any other habits that could be causing this? like eating poo? 
could ur pup have worms? 

If u would like to feed a more natural diet, then i would suggest doing a cooked version of barf.  jmo. 

Another good book is :Natural health for dogs and cats,by Dr Richard pitcairn.His recipe's are very grain heavy however,purely because he wants to make them cost effective.