You're right I probably could :) But my point is there are a lot of people who will not know to examine things more closer.  Many people do not take education beyond school and in many subjects it is not until adult education that one learns research skills and how to evaluate information, without that the internet can look like a huge source of information when infact much of it is dubious to say the least.

Yep I know what your point is & agree with *the internet can look like a huge source of information when infact much of it is dubious to say the least.* :)

Christine, Spain.

her opinion was worth no more or less than mine  Isabel her opinion is worth far more than yours,her knowledge on canine nutrition way surpasses mine! She has studied animal nutrition for alot of years,and not just skimmed over it,she knows just about everything about everything when it comes to canine nutrition,there is not a question that i have asked her that she doesnt know the answers to!

She created her website from her own goodwill,not for profit,no biast,nothing!

For the record the information on her website is NOT her opinion,it is documented fact!! Straight from the files and mouths of the pet food manufactures,like i said before everything on her site is public knowledge,she has just put it in one easy to read spot,you do not need a degree to learn about these things.Before you go off an another tangent why dont you find out if everything on her site is codswallop or just HER opinion,and then come back and have a go!!!!

>Due to the uncertainty of chemical additives, this ingredient should be avoided.
>A harmless but unnecessary ingredient, used in inexpensive, poor quality dog food as flavoring, emulsifier and discoloration inhibitor
>Contrary to what many pet food companies want to make you believe, this is not a high quality ingredient,

These are all opinions andI doubt she got them from the files and mouths of the pet food manufacturers :D
By studying nutrition do you mean she has studied at a recognised institution and more importantly been examined on the subject.

So are you saying that all the bags of Eukanuba, Science Plan etc etc are made in the US and shipped over here? Or are there factories here that make it? After all, Iams (UK) Ltd is one of the PFMA members who abide by this Code of Practice.

>Do you know what happens to the tonns and tonns and tonns of human by-products in Britain,that in EVERY other country are used in pet foods??

What on earth are these 'human by-products' you mention?

You may also find this informative.

The UK & Europe do import food by-products from around the world, that would be used in pet food.

Christine, Spain.

Ok then as far as I can see my dogs love this food whether I like it or not.  I think I am going to have to face that it going to have to be a trade off between the getting the best for them and what they enjoy.  He is still enjoying it three days down the line and is even wagging his tail when it is tea time which is great to see.  I am going to see how they do on it for a while and go from there. 

By the way somebody had recommended Trophy but I cant seem to find much on this food.  Out of interest does anybody use it and what do their dogs think of it?

Claire

This was just now posted on another dog site i belong to. Just passing on a newsworthy item I got in "Pet Product News"...

Purina has recalled all of the pet food produced at it's Venezuela plant, which was being sold in the Venezuela/Ecuador area. The reason: the precence of toxins from the moldy grains used in the food. The article assures readers that this recall has no effect on Purina's US and Canada foods.

Just a tidbit of interesting info! (Blechh!)

If this doesnt raise the red flag!

Claire like i said  if your dog does well on it and you've tried the other better foods without success and youre comfortable feeding this food,great :)

Having been to both Venezuela and Ecuador I think you might be shocked at what some of the people eat there :D  It must be hard to keep food good in such hot countries I'm impressed they are on the ball withdrawing it :)

Oh My God Isabel.Go argue with someone else,you will NEVER be happy! I'm kicking myself for biting on your fishing line AGAIN!!I am done with YOU!

Pete i dont think they send people out looking for roadkill,it is picked up by the relevant authorities and passed on!

Rose, 'the authorities' don't go around picking up roadkill around here! It's left to rot on the side of the road.

I wish someone would come & pick up the roadkill around here, the place is strewn with cock pheasant bodies on verges.......if I could pluck & do the necessaries, the dogs would be eating pheasant for several weeks!

Rose, I am rarely unhappy :)

I've been translating the US classification of the additives into the European classification, and the description of the relelvant E number. The first on the list, FD&C Blue No 2, is E132, the side-effects of which are listed as: May increase hyperactivity in affected children. Asthmatics sometimes react badly. Take care if you are sensitive to Aspirin. Be cautious if you suffer from allergies or intolerances.

I think 'Mordanna' may be over-reacting somewhat. JMO, of course.

E132 = Indigo Carmine :- Banned in Norway. Commonly used in ice creams, sweets confectionary, biscuits Might cause nausea, vomiting, skin rashes, breathing problems & brain tumours. Causes DNA damage & tumours in animals.

You seem to have missed those side effects J/G. I wouldn`t call anyone who`s concerned about all those side effects *over reacting*  be it for their animals or themselves :)

Brilliant Blue=E133 :- Banned in British Commonwealth 1972-1980. Currently banned in Austria, Belgium, France, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland & Germany. UK restricted to max permitted levels.
Commonly used in dairy products, sweets & drinks. Linked to hyperactivity & skin rashes. Listed as human carcinogen by the U.S. Enviornmental Protection Agency. Causes DNA damage & tumours in animals.

Christine, Spain.

Those side-effects weren't emntioned on the website I found, Christine. Just goes to show you can't trust many sites because they aren't all unbiased and don't give the whole story.
:)

*Just goes to show you can't trust many sites because they aren't all unbiased and don't give the whole story.*
How true J/G!!!!
Thats why I like sites that give the whole facts :)

Christine, Spain.

Might cause doesn't sound very scientific :) A lot of things over the permitted levels would be dangerous even vitamins.  I think an awful lot of research has gone into setting safe levels for all these additives I found the recent Sudan 1 business very reassuring that the government are taking no uneccessary risks.
There is always a risk/benefit analysis with these things and for me the use of preservatives within safe limits brings many more benefits in terms of ensuring the integrity of the stated levels of vitamins in the feed than the extremely modest risks.  Colouring is rather more unbalanced for me as I see them as uneccessary however if I had a dog that was picky and found such a food palatable and thrived on it the risk/benefit balance could swing in its favour.  I believe the low level of risk is supported by the fact that the vast majority of dogs have been fed on processed foods for decades, running in to many generations, presumably many of them of fed on coloured foods judging by the amount shifted off of supermarket shelves and yet the population, as a whole, remains robust with dogs living as long, if not longer, than they ever did.

*I found the recent Sudan 1 business very reassuring that the government are taking no uneccessary risks*

I wasn`t, probably because the government knew for quite a while before they did anything about it.

E104= Quinoline Yellow. Banned in US, Japan, Australia & Norway Commonly used in soft drinks, ice creams, desserts, confectionery & sauces. Linked to asthma, rashes, & hyperactivity. Potential carcinogen in animals: implicated in bladder & liver cancer. Also shown to affect the reproductive system in animals.
E954= Saccharine. Banned in Germany, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, France, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Fiji, Peru, Israel, Taiwan. 350 times greater than sugar. Might interfere with blood coagulation, blood sugar levels & digestive functions. Causes cancer of the bladder, uterus, ovaries, skin & blood vessels in animals
Has been linked to DNA damage & congenital abnormalities in animals  Might cause obesity.

What reason is there for putting these colouring/additives in dog food?

There is a risk with just about everything, you obviously feel fine about taking these risks, I & a lot of other people think the risks, besides being unecessary are too great.

Christine, Spain.

*Might cause doesn't sound very scientific *
No *might* about what it says further on Isabel.
 
*Causes DNA damage & tumours in animals[b/]*  or

*Listed as human carcinogen by the U.S. Enviornmental Protection Agency. Causes DNA damage & tumours in animals.*

Christine, Spain.

But at what quantity Christine, lots of things are dangerous above a certain limit, vitamins can cause fatal liver damage at high doses should we ban them?  I would use any chemical that showed a benefit, ie the preservation of food with all vitamins and minerals intact, provided that the safe limits had been determined as permitted levels are always well below that.  I am happy for the UK government to set that limit, using suitably qualified experts, as I see no motive for them not to do the safe thing, it would appear you don't but I don't see the point of keep telling me in bold what "might" happen if that chemical happened to be in my food in the first place and more relevantly exceeded safe limits.

Im sorry I can't help it but I'm going to have to say something. Firstly unless you are eating a 100% organic raw vegetable diet then I can guarantee you are eating chemicals that are not good for you, your food can absorb nasty things from the pan, veggies are sprayed in the field with allsorts, animals are given steroids, antibiotics and god knows what else to make them grow quicker, your average roast chicken is only 60 days old because it has been forced to grow, you can't avoid all these things, and besides you probably breathe in more pollutants than you could ever get in your food... and yet we're all still here. I think people sometimes verge on paranoia and should relax and just eat heathily. The same goes for your dogs, all this faffing around worrying about preservatives and colourings seems a little extreme, yes pick a dogs food that doesn't put a stupid amount of these things in but I don't think you need to sit there analysing the contents for hours, even if you find the perfect food your dog will still walk down the street and eat another dogs poo, or lick water from a puddle, and that means all your hard work was for nothing.

What I'm saying is that it's good to be sensible but obsessing about what's in food is a waste of time.

Sarah

Good point, Sarah. Obsessions are never healthy, and lead to paranoia.

Also, you'd have to make sure you only gave distilled water to drink, because of all the pollutants in rainwater and fluoride, nitrates etc in tap water.
:)

Our waterways are supposed to be polluted with hormones from women taking the Pill, yet we all give our dogs tap water to drink don't we?

Food & water keeps us all alive but besides being alive I also want to be as healthy as I can. It`s not an obsession with me, just common sense. :)

Christine, Spain.
ps I`m furtunate, we have our own spring water well :)

Colourings etc have only been in use for just under 100yrs, so who knows what harm can be done by them in the furure? Technology is only just starting to understand human body/immune system etc & the effect these things have And the writing in bold Isabel is to emphasis that it is not might happen, it is known to cause those things!!!

And I`ve just learned how to do bold & practicing my new found skill :p: :D :D

Christine, Spain.

My dogs only get distilled water,a simple yet affective step in the right direction.Yes they make take a sip from the odd puddle but not enough to undo my hard work!

I dont read the ingredients on the food i eat,i could if i wanted to,but i do it for my dogs as they cant read them,they rely on MY choices for everything.It is my duty of care not to be negligent and stick my head in the sand like a bloody emu!

I am also not obsessed,or else my dogs would be eating 100% organic.Like christine said it's simple common sense :)

I'm sorry rose, but I would reckon the huge majority of people would think that buying distilled water for your dogs (it's different to filtered water of course) is definitely obsessional!
:)

LOL - I must tell my dogs to keep their mouths shut when they swim in the stream :)

Daisy

Just under 100 years! sorry Christine that seems like a very long time to me, several generation of humans and dozens of dogs :)
But are these things known;) to happen at below the permitted levels?

Isabel,once again do you have anything constructive or educational to add to this thread.All you seem to be doing is questioning peoples degrees and trying you darndest to contradict those of us who choose to feed our dogs in a relatively healthy way!

I think people have been heartily sickened of personal comments of late Rose, please stick to topic.

Rose you're not even making sense anymore, you say you don't read labels on food but that you make informed choices? I try to make sure that my family and my dog eat healthily but I just think some people take it to extremes, I have worked in science quite a while and I have a very good idea about the understanding of human health and immunity and have spent time studying these areas and others in biology, I am not burying my head in the sand (oh and Emu's don't actually stick their head in the sand) infact I am probably more informed than a lot of people because of my work, I think that at the end of the day you could get run over by a bus tomorrow, or you could find out that you are genetically predisposed to getting an illness and no matter how many hours of your life you have wasted looking up what colourings are what, or how much money you have thrown away on water distillers in the end the secret is just to keep everything in perspective and do things in moderation.

I can't even remember how this conversation started anymore!

Sarah

ps, I bet you're all happily taking things that haven't been tested for 100 years, like the pill, ibuprofen etc...

Sarah

And using air fresheners and household cleaners etc etc

I find the whole fuss over the Sudan 1 thing amusing. Panic and withdrawal of foods that may be slightly contaminated with a teeny risk of cancer - whilst you can still buy 20 B&H.

My dogs get what they are given. They are healthy and happy. Most of the problems with dogs these days are caused by over exercise when young and under exercise when older IMO. And mine love nothing more than a lick of horse muck or a sniff and nibble at a bit of road kill :D :D

What's this, what's this!!! An outbreak of sensible, moderate thinking on t'interweb.  What are we going to see next? :D

I find this whole thread rather depressing - life is too short to worry toooo much about these things. We all have to die of something eventually - and for me personally, dying of old age is possibly the worst

Daisy

:-D :-D This recurring debate makes me smile. I cant help but admire the fortitude of the people who repeatedly dust themselves off and bounce back for more to defend their chosen viewpoint in this ongoing subject!

IMHO most pet owners & their dogs would get significantly more health benefits from moderating the AMOUNT of food they give their dogs rather than worrying too much about what goes in it.

What makes me smile is the number of times you see people saying "that's enough, I'm not going to comment any further on this" before reappearing a short while later to continue the same argument!! :D :D

Basically, certain people are never going to agree on certain issues.  We all have our own standards and ways of feeding our dogs, and so long as we and most importantly the dogs we are feeding are happy with it, why should it be anyone elses concern?  Yes, by all means share opinion and knowledge but when it descends into argument with facts (proven or otherwise) and scare mongering thrown into the mix I think it becomes less about the orginal enquiry and more about people's self beliefs that they are somehow "scoring points" over someone else which in my mind is less than helpful.

Just like to point out I`m not worried cos I know what we eat, never used plug ins etc & use ecover products :)
Also like to point out that it was due to having a severe allergy a number of yrs ago that set me on the lifestyle I now live, not my dogs. (it passed over to them when they had medical probs) It took over 4mths to find the cause & I had to list every ingredient on labels of stuff I bought on a daily basis. There are millions of people who have to do the same thing, either for themselves or their children & reading labels is a necessarry way of life, not an obsession.

Christine, Spain.

>There are millions of people who have to do the same thing, either for themselves or their children & reading labels is a necessarry way of life, not an obsession<

A valid point and well said Christine :)

I don't like when these threads turn round to making caustic remarks - some people are passionate about the subject whether on a for or against a type of diet basis and that's all fine and well, but it bodes well to remember there's a huge difference between being *passionate* about something and being accused of being obsessive or fanatical.  We don't each know the circumstances that have drawn others to have strong views about any issue so cannot and should not judge :(

Teri   

Thanks Terri :)

Christine, Spain.

It's no more insulting than being accused of burying your head in the sand! ;) Many people reckon life's too short and too important to worry yourself into an ulcer or an early grave.
:)

I'm not interested in comparing tit  for tat insults JG - nor which side of a debate (or more often debacle) that they are coming from.   I merely posted my support for what I thought was a very valid opinion, and stand by that.

Teri

And I was doing exactly the same. :)

Clearly there is a heck of lot of difference in studying labels because you have an allergy and studying them for things that fall into the theoretical risk category.  Even then I have no problem with people choosing to do that for themselves.  The only thing I object to is the inference, and you know I don't mean you Christine, that anyone who doesn't do this is heading for hell in a handcart :D

Thing is tho Isabel, once you have to read them you can`t help but notice all the rest of the added stuff & saying what is this???? Interesting to note that theres lot of them not allowed in foodstuffs for children under 36mths.....knew one person had caeliac child she was so fed up with reading labels!!!!

Christine, Spain.

I think what you have to accept though, Christine, is others read labels too, I am always checking fat and salt levels :), but when we ask what is this? we don't all come to the same conclusions but, believe me, we are not all "Emus" ;).  It doesn't suprise me that babies recommendations are different to adults as their reactions to things are different even with ordinary food stuffs. 
It is a pain when you have to be very stict but at least the information is readily available now, our best man suffered kidney failure and whilst waiting for his transplant I remember how difficult it was to find out protein levels on items, very much easy now I think :)

Yes I know others read labels Isabel & for many different reasons, like your best man & it`s a way of life for them, the cealic is my nephew. But things are so much better now & yes internet makes life much more easier to finding info for all these things :)
Our opinions will have to differ on interpretations of things tho ;) :D

Christine, Spain.

Oh for goodness sake in the time it took me to reply to Isabel look whats happened :( :(

Christine, Spain.