no longer barfing as pup constantly had the runs took her to vets and he said no more barf it wasnt no good for (her) back on kibble again and poo back to normal has anyone else had a problem with barf?

I don't think there is any food type that suits all dogs. Some folk would tell you to persevere or give you dietry advice, but at the end of the day you have to do what you feel is best for your pup. I don't barf,I don't feel qualified to start experimenting with my dogs diet. Others have done alot of research and their pets thrive on Barf. :)

The only time my dogs get the runs on a raw diet is if they have accses to extremely fatty or sugary foods (ie they steal the fat tray from teh George Foreman and then pig out cos i left the fruit bowl unattended)....

Things like rich marrow bones and loads of fatty turkey or something will also cause a dog to have the squits.

Many many vets will tell you barf is no good..... some of these vets will also then try and sell yo a brand of food they stock (not all mind, just some).

Whilst most dog owners are not qualified dog nutritionists, neither are vets, and THEIR dog feeding study is all information and evidence provided BY dog food manufacturers!

Id be interested to know what you were feeding exactly, and how old the pup is. Did your vet examine the pup for anything else that could be causing the runs?

Glad the pup is ok now, whether or not its on a raw diet.

Em

>all information and evidence provided BY dog food manufacturers

Good scientific research is extremely expensive so I doubt anyone else does much new stuff, however, like all degree students, student vets will undoubtedly be taught how to evaluate research properly, taking partiallity into account :)

<Good scientific research is extremely expensive so I doubt anyone else does much new stuff, however, like all degree students, student vets will undoubtedly be taught how to evaluate research properly, taking partiallity into account>

There is very little scientific study available about raw feeding, so students cannot evaluate research. This is why many vets have little faith in raw feeding, they do not have the research to give them confidence.

Personally, we care very little for published research and are prepared to experiment with our own dogs diet and have found a method of feeding that suits ours very well.
Our research would not be accepted by the establishment, because we do not record the components and quantities of the food given and there are no control animals to compare the results with.

Most raw feeders don't really care whether the diet has been researched and endorsed by the establishment, the results are proof enough.

Snomaes

Don't you think that historical evidence - ie as in no other alternative, is sufficient research to promote raw/barf feeding? Maybe it was a case of survival of the fittest (not a bad thing surely) in the pre/post war years but those dogs have by and large given us the breeds we are showing today.  Surely it is only human intervention that is creating dogs who are shall we say not as food tolerant as earlier generations because to put it extremely bluntly those puppies would not have survived.

Barf is not a food as such so it is difficult to comment.  This is like saying you feed your dog processed food - this can be any of the kibbles from the £6 a bag to the £50 a bag to tinned to pouched  etc etc but without being specific.

I feed a raw diet to all my dogs from the moment they start weaning and at all stages of their life - none has had the runs since I started this regime and I have had no problems with the way I feed raw to my dogs.

What kind of foods, how many times a day and how long did you feed BARF for maysea?

I'm interested as I have been BARFing with my pup for nearly 2 weeks now, as I do with the older two. She was 7 weeks when we got her and she has taken to it and it to her like a duck to water. She had the chronic squits when we got her, she was on an all in one and within 2 days she had normal waste and only goes 3 times a day instead of the 6 or 7, I still feed her 4 times a day albeit my book says cut it down to 3 at 8 weeks onward. :)

Did you do the change over gradually? Any change in diet can result in the squits if not done carefully ie only starting with one kind of meat at a time mixed in with some of their regular food, increasing the amount of new stuff gradually.

The change from Barf can be done immediately, it doesnt need to be done gradually as with complete food :)

I have read that some dogs with sensitive digestion problems can benefit from a gradual change over. Better than ruling out the BARF. It was a breeders experience, 1 dog in her 7 that had problems with an immediate change over.

If I changed my dog from kibble onto barf immediately, he would have the squits. He is fed barf, but I have to be careful. He can't have any RMB other than chicken and I have to be careful with the amount of offal he has. The other two aren't too bad. Shame, because he is really underweight. I try to make up for it on tripe days, when he has 600-800 gms of tripe.

Maybe the pup needs to be settled first on something really bland, then other foods gradually introduced. Anything causing a problem would then be spotted and removed from the diet. That's what I did with my dog when he was a pup as I had the same problem, except kibble upset him too.

I changed my pup originally straight from Burns to just tripe for a week, this settled his stomach and he put on noticable amounts of weight, I then added everything else in, so I suppose he was sort of changed over gradually - but not intentionally :)

Burns is already holistic and natural - sort of complete barf, so you should be able to change between Burns and barf with no problem. When everyone at my old obedience club changed from barf to Burns they did so immediately without problems, as did I when I changed back again.

Okay here is my two penny worth.   Puppies that are weaned onto a single variety of commercial dog food often only develop the gut enzymes to digest that particular food.   Maybe this is why the original poster [Maysie was it] found that raw food did not suit her dog.

In this instance a gradual changeover may well solve the problem.

Puppies that are fed variety will usually develop the gut enzymes to digest a variety of foodstuffs.   So maybe those people that find they could switch directly to BARF had puppies that came from breeders that did not just wean onto a single dog food with nothing else.

Many breeders wean onto a mixture of puppy food and add varietal foods such as eggs, weetabix and other stuff.

Vets have about half a days training on nutrition and this is usually given by Waltham [Pedigree] or Hills.  Holistic vets have a mind of their own and generally go along with raw food and bone feeding.

Wendy

Isnt Burns made up of mainly rice ?? Why is it so expensive then?

It should be called rice and chicken- not chicken and rice :D

It is :D !!! Don't the know percentages, mind, its far too late/early to be going out to the garage to see!!!

Well at least the lamb one is, that is called Brown Rice and Lamb. It is , IMO, one of the best commercial foods and has 98% digestibility which I believe is alot higher than some of the other more pupular brands. Our dogs love it, the only food our 6 year old has ate with gusto and Idõ was raised on and looks great! Kayla would, of course, eat anything as is her taste but she lso looks good on the burns and with the occassional added tripe and bits of raw chicken, legs, wings, carcasses etc and sometimes vegetables and live yog or cottage cheese they do well and we don't think its expensive, a £30 sack lasts a month or so( I think!) And its easy to put a portion in a bag to take to shows and can also be used as treats(I use liver at ringcraft tho for the right result!).

Obviously everybody ahs their own view as to which they think is the best way to feed, I must admit I was fasinated the first time I gave the girls a raw wing each last year(after years of thinking all bones were bad-despite Kayla's rabbit-crunching antics trying to change our mind!! but I don't think we'll ever make the full change(my mam has enough problems remembering how much food they get now and its just kibble!!) but that doesn't mean I won't continue to let our dogs have the occassional raw 'thing' as they really seemed to enjoy it.

And just to add, we always find afer they've had wings or legs etc their poos are always much firmer, raw has never given either of the girls the runs.

Emily :)

LOL emily,i didnt know the rice came first.I guess what i meant with the price was it's a lot of money to be spending on a food made mainly from cheap rice???

Seddie, I would have said nutrition was taught by their professor of Anatomy and Physiology as it would be impossible to study the subject, or aetiology, without including it, manufactors may come and give a talk on how to obtain the nutrition but I am sure they have the intelligence to see that that is just a convenient rather than exclusive way of delivering it.  I am sure if Mr Billinghurst chose to come and give a talk he would be welcome too ;)
I think all modern vets, like all modern doctors are holistic in that they will have been taught of the significance of diet, stress, lifestyle etc on health, after all the average layperson does these days :)

try extra carbs, not necessarily wheat based biscuit but chips/ yorkshire puddings/pasta etc. anything for  bulk

Just wanted to add to some of the comments above about changing over gradually.  I was told never to mix raw food and kibble (in the same meal) as it could cause upset tummies due to the different digestion rates of each type.  When we changed over we fed a kibble meal in the morning and then BARF in the evening without any digestion problems.  I changed the third pup to BARF straight away as soon as we got him home........again no squits problems there.

Maysea,can you please reply?? How long was your dog on this particular diet? What were you feeding?

I'm sure there is a very simple answer to your problem :)

I'm sure it was only a few weeks ago you were thinking about changing to a raw food diet,this has all happened very,very quickly :(

hi rose i did ween her with jwb kibble i fed her chic wings, minced beef ,minced chicken,eggs ,tripe .cottage chease, minced lamb ,sardines in oil .she is now back on kibble and has some raw chicken as this seems fine i would have liked to stay on barf as it is a natural food but she just doesnt seem to tolerate it.she seems to be growing fine and her poo,s are back to normal perhaps i will just keep trying with different foods to see which ones go through her it is confusing for me as i just want to do what is best for her.

also that week she ate some tulips lukily not the bulbs but that gave her upset stomach to.she seems to try to eat anything thats green in the garden at the moment have to keep an eye on my little scampie fry all the time she is worst than a baby but just as well loved lol

You fed all that, in the first week? Is that correct?

Thats far too wide a range of foods for the first week on a barf diet! Especially the lamb and the sardines in oil, its very very fatty and will give even MY dogs the squits if they get too much of it and they have been eating raw for a good few years now!

When i started off feeding raw, i reckoned to give it at LEAST 6 weeks to settle down and iron out any problems. I slowly introduced new foods to the diet over a period of a couple of months after the first month. For the first month i stuck to chicken wings, beef mince, and veg mix was just celery, apple and carrots. That woldnt be a balanced diet for EVER, but for the first six weeks its fine, the idea of raw diets is you get a balance over time, which is natural, rather than trying to make every mouthful a balanced meal.

If you DO want to go back to barf (and id say if your dog is eating raw chicken at the moment with no problems then teh raw aspect of it is NOT the problem) id suggest you read up a LOT more before you start, adn take it a bit slower thsi time.

Em

Brilliant advice theemx :)

Now, why can't I ever post so eloquently and make it clear what I'm trying to say :P

no i didnt feed all that in first week i had her on barf for approx 3 weeks feeding 4 times a day.

I think the runs is highly likely to be down to too rich foods too soon, and eating bulbs isnt going to help!

Hope you decide to give it another go.

Em

Hi Maysea,

I have 2 border collies and I tried a barf diet with them as one has behavioural problems due to the additives and the other has a sensitive digestion. I had no problems with it until I tried to give them raw bones and then the second dog would have a severe stomach upset for several days which could take up to a couple of weeks to settle. I got my butcher to mince chicken wings for them and still the same problem and again the same when larger marrow bones were given. I changed him to JWB and he lost a lot of weight although his stomach finally settled and 12 months ago I put them both onto Burns. I give them the active working dog food as it has the higher protein and fat levels and I have had no problems since. Barf does not suit every dog no matter how much we might like it to. Both of mine are used to a variety of left overs and have always been given raw vegetables to chew on and fruit since pups, the digestive system of one of them simply cannot cope with the bones and these are an important part of the diet. I still find it hard to get weight on my dog and he is very lean but very fit. I have spoken to my vet and we are going to try some raw tripe fed as an extra to his diet as Burns is known for keeping dogs lean.

Have you tried Autarky? Its a good quality complete thats 100% natural with no additives atc and I found it excellent at putting weight on
Archer

Tried that, didn't work unfortunately. Burns is the only food that he has been on that suits him and he has always been lean. He is neutered but typical collie he never stops when out on a walk he also does agility hence the higher protein food. When he was on JWB he also got itchy skin and a poor coat and they were less than helpfull when I spoke to them about it, just suggested that I give more food and less exercise (head and brickwall spring to mind). My other boy has been like a different dog since being on Burns and as he has mild hip dysplasia being lean is a definite requirement although he is still competing in agility with regular 6 month checks with my vet. I have managed to get half a kilo on the other through the winter but the competition season is starting and my vet and I both think that he needs something extra. I have spoken to Burns also and the consensus seems to be that tripe is probably the better option as it is simply a protein source and should not unbalance his diet. They both also get left over table scraps and neither of them is fussy about their food, I've never allowed that! I really would prefer to put them on a BARF diet but it just isn't possible

It made one of mine smell awful. After 2 weeks on a different food she smells nice again. Apparently they use synthesized vits and minerals that could have been the cause of the problem.

i changed my dog to raw after she continuously refused to eat processed food.  Even with her not eating for 3 or 4 days she would only eat a couple of mouthfuls, enough to survive on!  she was also very itchy and constantly biting herself.  So i changed over to raw straight away takin it slow at first with things like chicken and beef, then gradually introduced offal, lamb and fish.
When i went back to college fulltime and work i couldnt feed barf as i didnt have time and she refused to eat bones, but now its all back to normal, and noticing that my girl was biting her feet raw and not eating well, ive switched her back to raw and have the butcher cut up the bones for her, which she eats no problem.

I dont think raw is suitable for every dog by any means, but my girl does brilliantly on it and its nice getting remarks from people about her coat :D  its so shiny and soft :D

I tried BARF when I had only 2 dogs.  One thrived, one spent 3 days in the hospital with salmonella poisoning.  My vet wasn't against the raw diet at all, in fact, advised me that some dogs can handle it and some can't.  I'm now feeding them Burns Chicken/Rice and they do very well.