Hi,  I had my westies teeth cleaned at the vets today and it cost me £112.50!, I do occassionally clean them but not as often as I should,  this is the first time to go to the vets for cleaning, she is 7 years old.
I was recommended to feed her on Hills t/d food as it will clean her teeth whilst she is eating, I feed her on JWN & Naturdiet at present,. What is the general thought on Hills please?

white friends

Hi White Friends,
That does seem like alot but what  does it exactly include? We had our cats teeth cleaned ONCE, cost alot and a few weeks later they were really bad again as we couldn't brush them. We din't bother again, I scraped the worst of the tartar off myself ans he didn't have problems agin. I don't think there is any point if the teeth will be left again, raw meaty bones and 'recreational' bones are good for cleaning teeth plus brushing if your dog is used to this.
I personally think this belief that dry food will keep the teeth clean is aload of pants:D Thats like saying if you eat crunchy biscuits like crackers etc will keep you teeth  clean! Have no experience of the Hills t/d but I know Chloe(our oldest who will be 7 this year)hated it the normal Hills but loved ND and JWB when we fed that, she now loves her Burns!
You could up the teeth cleaning and give the bones I suggested and see what a difference that makes :)
There should be someone along soon to tell you more about the bones, we feed the occassional chicken wing, raw, to the girls and their teeth are always sparkly white afterwards!!
HTH
Emily :)

Hi White Friends,

The problem with having the teeth descaled by your vets is that during the process the surface enamel of the teeth is left with tiny scratches and pits.  Consequently the teeth in fact become dirtier than ever in a relatively short period of time because the smooth natural surface is (invisibly to the naked eye) damaged and tartar easily clings to it :(

The damage then done, the only way to prevent staining and deposits is by regular brushing - preferably daily but at least every other day.  All of the outer surface of each tooth needs to be cleaned but the most important area to concentrate on is the back teeth and particularly in between them.  These are large molars and have naturally occurring grooves near the gum line which seem to be damaged most by the descaling procedure.

Hills t/d is a larger than average dry kibble and shaped differently from most - both supposedly encouraging a lengthier chewing/crunching process which helps clean the surface.  Personally I can't vouch for whether or not it is effective.  Chicken wings (providing your dog actually chews them and doesn't swallow them whole :P ) helps keep tartar at bay but when descale has already been done I don't think you can afford to not brush too.

Regards, Teri :)   

>What is the general thought on Hills please?<

The general thought is not good :(  They use inferior ingredients such as by-products,derivatives etc. they charge an exhorbatant amount for a less than premium food,vets push this product because they get huge kick backs for doing so ,the paltry amount of nutrition training most vets get are held by large corporations such as hills,euk etc. :(

Hills used to be a decent food BEFORE they got taken over by proctor&gamble,(you know,the people who make our soaps and shampoo's :rolleyes: ) who are more interested in profit than product! The cheaper the ingredients they use in their food,the more profit they can make, obviously.
Hills is a U.S brand who have very,very lax standards when it comes to pet foods,euthanised dogs and cats,leather collars etc. have all been found in some u.s brand foods,usually the cheaper foods,and it is not against the law! It also contains the preservatives BHA-BHT and ethoxiquin,which are all known cancer causing preservatives!

As Teri has already stated the more you take your dog to the vets for teeth cleaning the worse his teeth will get and you'll end up paying more and more because you will have to get them done more frequently.

The easiest AND cheapest way to keep a dogs teeth clean are by giving them bones,chicken wings and necks particularly. I know someone who adopted a dog with hideous breath,his teeth were absolutely caked with yellowish green tartar,the vet urged her to bring him in for a scaling,but she declined and said she'll bring him back for a checkup in a months time.Well a month had passed,the vet almost fell off of his chair as the dogs teeth were now pearly white...She managed to get them like this by feeding wings and necks on a daily basis with the odd recreational bone thrown in,knuckle bones i think.

The bottom line is either you can go through the hassle of brushing your dogs teeth everyday,not every now and then as this wont do much OR you can toss him a bone everyday and let them clean his teeth,to be honest i couldnt be bothered brushing my dogs teeth,what a hassle!
The last time i visited my vet he went and called the nurses and said "this is what a healthy dogs teeth should look like" while showing them my dogs teeth,i almost burst with pride.
I have owned dogs since i was a kid,i have NEVER had problems with tartar or gum disease,probaly because i have always given my dogs bones :)

Getting back to hills,my personal opinion...i wouldnt feed it,it's a waste of money,there are cheaper more healthful alternatives available to you.

One more thing i forgot to mention is "fragaria" which you can get from dorwest herbshttp://www.dorwestherbs.com
"these are a homeopathic remedy that can be given daily to soften and aid in the removal of tartar.Thereafter if one pillule is given weekly it will help prevent the deposit of further deposits."

Fragaria given along with raw meaty bones should keep your dogs teeth sparkling,and best of all no more stressful,expensive vet visits :D

:) This is the correct link for Dorwest. :)

Oops,sorry,thanks for correcting me spaniel lover :)  I thought the link looked a bit off

http://www.dorwest.com

Hi Teri, is there any research on this? Unlike human teeth dog tooth enamel continues to grow so I'd have thought that the scratches etc would soon fill in.

Hi Jas,

I was told this by a canine dental specialist (once had a dog who tore out one of his upper canines and was trying to have it put back in didn't work beause of time period).   With post scaling surface damage, the build up of food deposits is immediate unless the teeth are cleaned immediately after eating.

I have dental scalers and occasionally use them on the dogs' molars but rarely have  to do more than that.  I have had one dog in the past which required a vet to descale her teeth and tartar build up was an ongoing problem.

Regards, Teri :)

Hi, you can scale your dog's teeth yourself. All you need are a couple of dental scrapers and a bit of time to get the dog used to the idea.

Don't know anything about Hills T/D but my experience is that some dogs/ breeds rarely or never need their teeth scaled while others do quite often, regardless of the food they are on. That said I do find that a few big hard biscuits for supper mean less frequent scaling for the dogs that do get tartar buildup.

It just upsets me too see dogs go through the unnecessary risks  of anesthesia and the stress of the vet visit,not to mention lining the vets pockets.Dental cleaning is like the number 2 biggest earners for vets! When all of this coul dbe so easily avoided.

A chipped or broken tooth would mean an extraction under anaesthetic.  As I say it is a risk/benefit equation, best decided by the individual, why risk bones if the food is keeping the teeth fine particulary if you have no problems adding teeth cleaning into the grooming regime.

I think Hills is a perfectly good food but too expensive!  I'm not concerned who makes it though, all companies have to make profits or the workforce end up on the dole :)  What the anti-capitalists often don't acknowledge is that a company selling very many units can afford to run on a smaller mark up enabling quality to be obtained for the purchaser at a reasonable price whereas a small company may need to compromise on quality in order to compete at the same price and still make enough money to run. I'm not sure of the relevance of whatever else the company sells :)

I have to say Rose took the words right out of my mouth ;)  My dog has fabulous white teeth, she gets regular 'recreational' bones such as knuckle and shin beef bones.  Just seeing her teeth work on these types of bones (without mentioning the one's she gets as part of her diet-wings etc) its not difficult to understand how the cleaning works!  The incisors and canines have obvious jobs as do the molars, which of course aren't 'blunt' like human molars but are sharp, shearing teeth that are constantly working against the bone in a bid to shear of remaining flesh.  However White Friends you may not want to feed your dog bones which is of course a personal decision.  One thing I would say is that there are many dry foods and even treats that are advertised as tooth cleaners ie: rask's that actually have sugar in them so I recommend reading the labels!
Sarah
PS Funny that mind......A vet recommending Hills t/d!!!!!!

Hi there,
Thanks for your comments on keeping my dogs clean in the future.
White Friends

Isabel just wanted to say that hopefully one day i will know as much as you do,you are an inspiration to all of us who want to feed our dogs a better and more natural diet,thank-you for aaalllll the things you have taught me,your knowledge about everything is just endless and without ever picking up a book

Thanks Izzie :D

Why thank you Rose :) although you are wrong about the books, you have just got to read the right sort of book ;)

>you have just got to read the right sort of book ;-)<

For curiosities sake which books are those? I admit i am a canine book junky,i have around a hundred of them,but i've never read about anything youv'e said in any of them.

What are the titles and author's,if you dont mind sharing?

I thought we were talking about books on economics and anti-capitalists as that was what my post was about.
Although I have several breed books and general interest dog books I don't buy any books on canine diet, if that is what you are talking about, I have looked at a few but it has always been clear that they have taken a rather maverick view :)  As I have said before, when it comes to matters of science I feel it really has to be peer reviewed so that rather narrows it down to veterinary journals.  They are not generally available to the public but I am sure your vet would lend you any relevent issues if you expressed an interest to them.

Thanks for the PM Rose but lets stick to more overt communication I don't really see us as having a private relationship ;)