Whether or not dogs are opportunists or not is irrelevant.

Yes they will eat anything but then so will any species if it is hungry enough AND if the source of the food is processed enough (cows and sheep eating chickens etc)?  Ring any bells.

Dentition alone is not enough of a sign of a carnivore (bears and pandas are proof of that) you have to take the whole physiognomy into account.

Dogs are carnivores; full stop;  yes they are omnivorous which means they CAN and DO eat other things than meat and, unlike cats that are OBLIGATE carnivores, can get some nutrition from non meat sources.

Does not change the FACT that they are carnivores.

Just as horses, sheep and cows are herbivores; this is not an opinion but a fact

Jackie - canine dentition is not the same of the badger and pig, you need to look more closely - canines have incisors for gripping and pulling, canines for piercing, carnassial molars for shearing and molars for grinding.  Dog's have forward facing eyes (with a tapetum on the retinal layer to make use of natural light sources when in the dark), moveable pinna, flexible spine (for running) - My point is that the dog/canine is a hunter - he is not hunting plums or carrots, but live prey.  The simple fact the the dog is opportunist only reinforces the argument.  Dogs are not scientifically classified as true carnivores as cats and, say, mustelids are.  I am not trying to force veg into my dog, merely asking for ideas from other feeders of the natural diet in case there is a type/group I am ignoring and could try - I'm sure it would not be detrimental to my hound if she doesn't eat veggies - just trying to do whats best by her - which includes avoiding processed, cooked, cereal based, commercial foods which she wasn't designed to eat...Now that would be *sad*

<<which includes avoiding processed, cooked, cereal based, commercial foods which she wasn't designed to eat...Now that would be *sad*>>

Not wishing to start up a row, but it's worth us all bearing in mind that humans weren't designed to eat these things either. But I bet we all do, and thoroughly enjoy them  ...

That doesn't mean they are healthy though. ;)

Kath.

According to this site dogs have been hanging around with man for at least 12,000 years, and according to this one it was only about 10,000 years ago that Man started cooking grains. I bet the dogs managed to scrounge some too, and therefore have been eating cooked grain for as long as humans.
:)

We have a choice JG

Yes - and so do dogs! They are opportunist feeders - if it's there, then they'll eat it. Herbivores won't choose to eat meat, but dogs will choose to eat bread etc if it's there. My dogs choose to eat unprocessed grain, fruit etc (so do foxes - I've seen the documentaries!) - it's a natural thing for them to do (especially when you read the current and previous threads on this Forum about what 'unusual' things our dogs eat). I was astonished to discover from those sites I posted that the dog has been domesticated for longer than humans have been cooking grain.

I've got no axe to grind - I just like to see all points of view and then make up my own mind. I'm sure all of us on this board are intelligent and open-minded enough to do the same.
:)

Here here tohme.  Having just done this subject in my course I can wholeheartedly agree with your statement of fact!

Claire

Whether or not dogs are opportunists or not is irrelevant.

Yes they will eat anything but then so will any species if it is hungry enough AND if the source of the food is processed enough (cows and sheep eating chickens etc)?  Ring any bells.

Dentition alone is not enough of a sign of a carnivore (bears and pandas are proof of that) you have to take the whole physiognomy into account.

Dogs are carnivores; full stop;  yes they are omnivorous which means they CAN and DO eat other things than meat and, unlike cats that are OBLIGATE carnivores, can get some nutrition from non meat sources.

Does not change the FACT that they are carnivores.

Of COURSE feeding meat ONLY will not be healthy for dogs, that is why nature designed them to eat BONES.  The prey animal is made up of protein, fat, fibre, and vegetable matter thereby providing a wholesome balanced diet along with micronutrients that they consume accidently or incidentally along the way such as windfall fruit, faeces, bark etc etc etc.

If you feed raw correctly it is based around the prey animal.  If you look at the protein, fat, vitamin, mineral needs of a dog ALL can be provided for using the prey animal as a model with NO need for any form of cereals!

Whether you choose to feed cereals or not is a personal choice.

The discussion here centres around a) is the dog a carnivore - yes it is and b) do dog have any nutritional requirement for carbohydrates - no they do not the old Waltham site had a whole page devoted to this very subject; a company that sells commercial food made mainly from carbohydrates stated on their site that dogs have no nutritional need for carbs!!!!!

It is not available now, I wonder why....................

Just as horses, sheep and cows are herbivores; this is not an opinion but a fact

It is not a matter of belief but fact :D 

To say that a dog is not "designed" to be carnivore is as specious as saying a fish is not designed to swim.  All animals have been "designed" created, or whatever you like to call it to match their environment and food source.

Dogs are carnivores

Humans are not carnivores.

Suppose it depends how you view the word carnivore.
Carnivore, dictionary definition = any placental mammal or plant that feeds on flesh. With that definition I agree dogs are carnivores but so are humans.
Omnivore = eating food of both animal and vegetable origin or any type of food indiscriminately. Now with that definition I would have to say dogs were omnivores and so are we. But I do not see that it matters what label is put on an animals feeding habits and requirements as long as the organism is able to get that food that is necessary to its well-being.

Over the few months I have read, not particularly on this thread but on others and may be even on other forums that dogs do not need and therefore should not have, starch, including sugars and glucose, cereals, processed fats, vegetables, and in one case dairy products because they were not deemed natural. Now that does not leave very much except flesh and supplements from the health food shop.

Would not dream of telling others how to feed their animals or their children, but do worry with this sort of information being repeated time and time again that people new to animal husbandry may think that feeding only flesh is OK and I think we all know that it is not. Most of you I am sure are experienced enough to know that the food you give should have variety, do not mean that a different food should be offered day to day but that food containing all the variety of elements necessary to sustain healthy life.

*Carbohydrates and Fiber are what evolving carnivores derived most as intake as semi-digested material from the gut of their prey. There is, as yet, no accepted minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for dogs and cats, but studies have demonstrated recently that carbohydrates and fiber play a vital role in the health of the intestine and are likely to be important for reproduction. Carbohydrates are made of carbon (C), hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O) and include sugars (e.g. glucose, fructose and sucrose), starches and fiber.* Taken from http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nutrients
A lot of people who feed their dogs on a raw diet have difficulty finding whole prey to feed them on, I have to mix n match so to speak. I feed my lot soaked oats, cooked lentils & various beans. They also have wholewheat bread, not all the time & only in small amounts. They also have a variety of fruit n veg & I make the bitter veggies more palatable by adding either some honey, tomato, liver,eggs or fruit when it goes into the processor. mind I`m lucky with my lot as they`ll eat most anything!!! :)

Christine, Spain.

My Staffords always eat their veggies mixed with either mince or tripe. Or I blend in some offal.
I never have a problem getting them to eat it.

Mitch.

Our wheaten, Bridie used to eat her dinner and pick all the carrots out and spit them on the floor!!!! :D

sarah xxxx

Jackie,Obviously Tohme gets most of her knowledge from books,sometimes word for word! As do the rest of us,such as kymythy Shultze,Tom Lonsdale,Ian Billinghurst. I also thought you were anti-barf as it seems you enjoy arguing the point at every opportunity!

Just for the record dogs ARE designed to eat meat,i have resigned to stay out of barf V commercial as the answer is simple and how anyone could possibly argue the facts gobsmacks me! Here is the scenario,should we feed our dogs a bowl full of muesli every day for the rest of it's life OR should we feed it the way nature intended,a full variety of fresh meats,offals AND veg??? What there is to debate about is beyond me,there is only 1 answer to this simple question!

Getting back to the original question,i have given up trying to feed my dogs veggies,as there is no way,no how that they will eat them,it really is not worth bashing your head against the wall over!As someone has already mentioned as long as your dog is eating tripe and a wide variety of other foods then you should be o.k.If your worried you could supplement with a multi-vitamin,mineral or add something like keepers mix.

christine

Christine, of course dogs are designed to eat meat, have never suggested otherwise, was just pointing out that like us they need and will eat a variety of food some of which are necessary to their well being others that they can either do without or would be better without. And like us the safest way to feed it to use a variety of suitable food and not to worry if one particular dog does not like a particular food, in a varied diet it is not important.

I have to agree 100% with the last part Jackie I have lost count the amount of times i have been on my hands and knee's infront of my dogs pretending to eat out of their bowls,to get them to eat.I was ready to pull my hair out,it just is not worth stressing over,like you said as long as they are getting a wide variety of other foods and maybe a little supp. here and there you cant go far wrong.

One thing i will never understand is,with all this talk on the importance of variety,how can it be good to feed a dog out of a bag day in day out?? I really find it hard to believe that there is such a thing as a complete and balanced food in a bag,it's just toooo easy.

christine

If I can put in a point here without being told off (and I'm sure you all know that I feed my dogs on all sorts of things, complete, raw meat, table scraps etc, and they also graze on wheat ears and 'fruits in season', so I have no axe to grind) you get a variety of ingredients in a bag of complete. It may all look the same, and has lead to far fewer dogs being malnourished than in the 'good old days'. The main problem that I can see with it is that it is too good! Just like modern humans, modern dogs eat too much and are generally overweight.
:)

I exagerated a little when i said my dogs eat NO veggies,sometimes when the mood takes them they will eat "Baked" pumpkin and green beans,this is ofcourse not raw and i am not sure how many vitamins are in it after it's been cooked but you could give it a try,maybe thinly slice your veggies and bake lightly in a little olive oil,if this still doesnt make him eat then i would give it a rest for a while and maybe try again in a few months.

http://b-naturals.com/Spr1999.php

[link]http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182802.htm&word=dogs%2ccarbohydrates[/link]

Hopefully the Merck Veterinary Manual is pretty scientific enough for your re the carbohydrate issue :D

my 2 labs love veggies with some raw meat(ecept cabage and garlic)
trie her on mince and veggies.

we also use brocolie,carotts,collieflower, beetroot.they love collieflower
from hilarybrenn

Hilary do you add the vegies raw and pupled or steamed and mushed?

christine

mostly raw somtimes steamed