Jasper is our 5 month old dal puppy and, like all dal's, is a thief!
We always keep any food out of his reach and it is usually successful. Tonight he has just snatched a bag of minced beef straight off the kitchen worktop in front of my friend who was in the kitchen. I gave him the biggest smack of his life to try and get him to let go but he wouldnt - it took two of us to prise his mouth open and retrieve it.

I threw him outside for 10 minutes because he absolutley detests being out in the cold and rain. My missus says I'm being too harsh on him, and I have read that dal's do not respond well to punishment and should be trained by reward.

How do we train him to not steal food?
I know he will always be a sly thief but I will not tolerate blatant stealing in front of me and refusing to let go of the 'ill gotten gains'.
If I had not been home he would have just eaten the mince in front of Kate as there is no way she would have been strong enough to open his mouth.
I dont want to be cruel to him and he always gets a smack if he does something that he knows is wrong but he still does it??

:rolleyes:

that was helpful, thanks.

I dont think any dog needs physical punishment - especially a puppy
Has pup been to any training classes and if so how did he get on there ?

he goes to puppy training once a week and is getting on quite well for his age.

I dont want to physically punish him but I do need him to realise that what he did is unacceptable. Actually he knows full well its not acceptable, I need him to not do it. I want to nip it in the bud as I dont want a fully grown dog acting like that.

Pups like children very often act before thinking
Have you asked your trainer how he/she would deal with such a situation .
JeanGenie has dalmations ( 4 of them) you will propbably recieve more constructive advice from her when she pops on
But I really wouldnt hit him as then you are teaching him that aggression is ok and it isnt.
You dont want to rear a dog that becomes afraid of people when they raise their hand for whatever reason

To be honest I do think you are being hard on him.
He is only a baby,he may look older but he is only a baby.

Most dogs will steal but you just dont give them the chance
put things up out of his way.
3 weeks on the trot I lost my sunday roast,
1st week I was annoyed
2nd week..well I should of learnt from last week,
3rd week.......well enough said.

I think 10 mins is way too much,he would of forgotten why he
had been put out there.
Smacking doesnt work,all your teaching him is that you smack him
and smack him again and again and leave him with only 1 option
...to defend himself,then he bites you back or so scared stiff of you his life is hell.

You have the equalivant of a toddler (even younger)
you wouldnt treat a child like that please just take a breath calm down
and teach him with kindness and you will have a dog that loves and respects you
not fears you and wets himself.

The only way I have found to stop a dalmatian stealing food is never to leave it available. By the time he is about 3 he will realise that jumping up at the worktop is silly while you are in the room. He will still do it the instant your back is turned, though.

To remove food from his mouth carry on the 'leave' command you will have been teaching him from a young pup.  And to open his mouth when he doesn't want to, just hold his muzzle from the top, and press inwards just behind his canine teeth. You will have to be firm, but it is easy for a woman to do this with just one hand (trust me on this!) leaving the other hand free to remove the object he is holding.

If you accept that you will never be able to leave food where he can reach it, you will come to having a much better relationship with him.

Physical punishment for a dal is a silly thing to do. They don't respond to it in the way you expect.

OK - step 1 - take a large newspaper the Times or Gaurdian is best.  Roll it up into a good solid weapon...............................

Then beat yourself over the head with it saying 'I will not leave tempting food where my pup can reach it!!!!'

Seriously, your dog has seen your reaction in the past, but he doesn't *know* it's wrong, merely that stealing it worth the risk, especially as he rates his ability to hang on to his ill gotten gains -he's now also learnt that he may have to increase the pressure on you next time to leave him alone as you went in VERY heavy this time :(

To teach a dog not to take food that's offered take a lot of time and patience.  Start off by teaching him that he needs to show restraint WHENEVER there is food around, wether it's a tit bit, his dinner bowl or scraps from a MacDonalds in the street.  Firstly take a titbit in both hands - offer him on in the palm of one hand - the second he moves towards it close your hand sharply around it, repeat this until he's sitting back (and probably dribbling ;)) then let him have the treat from the other hand with the command (I use 'go on then'). Repeat this time and time again until he makes no move towards the hand when it's offered. NEVER allow him to take the treat from the first hand.  You can then start to put it on the floor and use your foot to cover it (make sure your foot never makes contact with him though, you don't want to make him foot shy :( ).  When hes no longer moving towards the food treat, start applying the same to his food bowl - when his meal is ready ask him to sit, then start to slowly put the food on the floor - again, the second he moves towards it you stop, only continue when he's sitting. Use the same release word again.  He should NEVER get any food without being told he may have it by a human, and ALL humans should do the same.

Remember the harder you are on him, the less likely he is to come to you when he's got something he really shouldn't have, like a glass jar, or a cooked bone.  I know it's frustrating, but we're supposed to be the intelligent species, not them ;)

Thanks for the replies.

first thing is that I dont have a problem with him taking food when I'm not around, or have been stupid enough to leave it within puppy reach. He knows he shouldnt do it but he always will, if i didnt acept that I would not have got a dal.

The problem here is that he walked into the kitchen at the same time as my house mate opened the door and leapt up to the worktop and stole the food. I dont call that temptation or leaving food where he can get it.

I virtually never smack him, particularly for doing something that is in his nature. He already waits for his food at mealtime and is not allowed it until he makes no move for it. We'll try the suggestion with the titbits too and make sure he is given 'permission' before ahving any food.

Hi Stu, can i ask how many times aday your puppy gets fed, and what you feed him and how much as this could have some thing to do with it, an have you had him wormed and when, sorry but this could help you and him thanks .

He gets Burns 3 times a day, the recommended amount by the breeder and the packaging according to his weight/age.
he is up to date on allworming etc.

ta

I know it's infuriating when things like this happen, but no amount of getting angry with him will stop him doing it. The most likely effect is that he will become even quicker at snatch-and-run! With the downside that he may become afraid of you as well. He won't understand why you suddenly become aggressive with him ("the biggest smack of his life"), so it's possible that he will do the same thing with you.

HI Stu. My old dally bitch was evil for stealing food. She was an opportunist thief with brains. When we lived in Army Qtrs we lived next door to very good friends and Scrabble would frequently go round herself to say Hello. How mortified was I when she opened our back door, our gate, their gate and their backdoor to let herself in and stole my friends dinner off the side while she was on the phone

On the other hand, my male was never given the opportunity to steal as a pup, and never did as a grown up. I will always remember throwing a party for my daughter and wondering where the dog was, only to find him sleeping under the table with all the food on, behind a closed door, and he hadn't touched a thing.

I would just put everything totally out of reach. Put a lock on the fridge and cupboard doors and leave nothing out. Eventually the desire to scavenge will wear off when he is not rewarded for the behaviour by finding food.

He didn't steal it.  He found it.  Dogs are hunters and scavengers.  Physical punishment will not stop it happening again especially if the reward comes before the punishment.  Everytime he succesfully gets food from the worktop you are ensuring that he continues to hunt and scavenge in your kitchen.  If you continue with the physical punishment your dog will likely end up scared of you and possibly biting you or worse still he may decide not to bite you because you're too scary but instead bite your partner or the kids or visitors if he perceives that they may be going to hit him.
Sally

Hi Stu,

I think expecting any dog not to steal food, especially a puppy, is unrealistic, I know a lot will exist but if you have a food oriented dog (which is good for training of course) then your work is cut out for you it often comes down to the dog, I'd love to meet the person who can leave a roast chicken on a low table and go out for the day and it'll still be there and they achieved that purely through training rather than the dog just being like that.

The situation:

You have a dog who steals stuff and was given the opportunity by you leaving minced beef on a reachable surface, your post also says "I will not tolerate blatant stealing in front of me", which implies that you have the view that a 5 month old puppy must obey you?  Please understand this is not a criticism, dogs can drive you mental with their behaviour and often do things you can't believe they'd do right while your standing there, but why do you think he wouldn't is the real question?  Although you know this is bad behaviour does he?  Bear in mind that as well as being cruel one of the biggest problems with hitting a dog is actually timing, if you chase the dog around for instance (because it's probably taken him about 5 seconds to suss out when you're likely to hit him and will run) then you aren't hitting him for the problem you're hitting him at the end of a chase game, which is probably confusing to say the least.  The other thing to bear in mind about hitting as well is that if you take the situation tonight, let's be honest here, you probably went ballistic and getting into the habit of hitting the dog when you're annoyed is a very bad idea, not that it's ever a good idea.

To be honest if you're serious about using reward methods (and you should be) then get some books as well, stuff by John Fisher is excellent, although he was very dominance based, which I don't really believe in personally, he was also a great man with brilliant advice.  There are lots of others such as perfect puppy by Gwen Bailey, The culture clash by Jean Donaldson and anything and everything by the great Ian Dunbar.  Learning from these will not only teach you specific techniques but you'll start to understand the way dogs learn and think so you'll break down problems and find solutions (or ask champdogs of course, because the chances are people here have seen and done it all, especially when something doesn't seem to be working at least you'll know to change or stick with it).

In terms of your situation tonight I'd say that, as the other posters have said, stop leaving food where he can get it especially as stealing will be so self rewarding for him you'll create a nightmare.  Secondly stop him jumping up to the tops and reward him when he gets down, thirdly teach him leave it so he'll drop stuff, he's food oriented training should be a snap.

Regards

CJG

Hi Stu,
Your dog doesn't know he is doing wrong!  Admittedly they can try it on more with certain people but it is nothing to do with him being a 'dal' - its him being a dog!  My 5 month afghan does it, she thinks its great fun to put her muddy paws up on the side and TAKE items but I have to be very careful with what I leave (especially dangerous items such as cooked chicken or knives!) - She enjoys the attention it gets her, and the reward if she's able to grasp something :rolleyes:  What we do at the moment is reward her for all four feet on the ground and ignore her when she jumps up on the side's, or tell her off (not down) and reward for the correct behaviour.  She recently pulled down £85 worth of kettle, smashing it to bits - I couldn't possibly punish her for that let alone smack her, it was my own fault for leaving it there...I couldn't say it was blatant destruction or her wanting to deny me a cuppa, just being a puppy (who isn't capable of making a concious decision) - Smacking him for a reason he simply doesn't understand will ruin your relationship with him and make him nervous of you.
Sarah

< i gave him the biggest smack of his life >

this sentance horrified me.
this is a dogs natural instinct. yes, it is very frustrating, and yes when he is older if you continue with the training etc he will learn to leave things, and drop things on command.
But come on stu this is a 5 month old baby. You wouldn't give a toddler 'the biggest smack of its life' for taking a chip from your plate would you?
Puppys and children are almost the same to disaplin, no smacking in my opinion is required. Simple praise, and treats for good things, and time out, a firm NO and you must give him eye contact when saying this!!
After 5 minuites a dog will not remember what it is being punished for anyway so anylonger is pointless.

< he always gets a smack when he does something that he knows is wrong but he still does it >

if he knew it was wrong he wouldn't do it.
If you are smacking your dog and he is still doing these things obviously your method is not working, and besides doing some long term damage to yours and your dogs relationship, you are not getting the result you want.
change your approach to teaching the dog what is wrong, and you may get the results you desire.

good luck xx

p.s none of this was a critisism by the way! At the end of the day Jasper is your pet and i'm sure as you say you don't want to be cruel to him.

Dogs are opportunists, they never know when the next meal is coming or not and so thousands of years of evolution have made them take food where they can; it is as natural as breathing in and out! 

You are therefore punishing your dog for being a dog which is not really very helpful; it may make you feel better to vent your anger and frustration but it does nothing for the dog.  In fact by doing what you did you entered into a competition over resources which, if he had been an adult, I dare say he would have won as I venture to wager that one dog armed with a powerful set of teeth against you is no contest!  Again, thousands of years of evolution have ensured the survival of the fittest - that is those who get hold of the resources and retain them!  Your dog is being a dog.  He can't actually help it; it is his genes!

Punishment as a general method of behaviour management has been shown to be singularly ineffective; both in dogs and humans!  Dogs do what is in their own best interests therefore it may be better to reward and reinforce good behaviour and pay attention to that rather than becoming combative! 

You cannot train a dog NOT to steal food!  People think that they can but in general the individuals that do not steal tend to be not very food orientated.  There are food refusal tests in some competitions both here and abroad and the type and amount of training for this exercise in  a lot of dogs would be entirely inappropriate for a pet dog.

Much better to train yourself not to leave food around; just as you would train yourself not to leave scissors and knives around when you have small children.

Dogs do not KNOW something is wrong; they are amoral!  They do what they think is safe or what they are ABLE to do. 

Think about it, if punishment worked why would he still do it?

Please do not smack your puppy; your dog should associate your hand with a pat, a titbit, a caress; NOT as pain.

I am not experienced enough to comment too much maybe but what I have found since gaining my first pup 7 wks ago is that I use the advice my Mum gave me when I had each of my 4 children.  'rather shout than clout'  It works for me when Dicksy goes to do something wrong I just change the tone of my voice and always raise the level a little saying 'oi oi' oi', works for me everytime even with the mouthing he used to do.  Never had to smack my children or my puppy and never ever would.

I don't feel experienced enough to offer advice either but I will tell you about our thieving whippet, it took us ages to realise that most of the time he wasn't out to steal food he was trying to get us to play the chase me around the house game. He has this very different look on his face when he gets something ,we call it the " I've got the cheese look" and he straight away goes into the classic play bow ready for us to chase him. We don't ever chase after him now because he loves it!! we now walk calmly over and say give, it was very easy to teach by throwing his favourite toy and getting him to swap his toy for a treat while saying give.
I think the main thing we've learnt is if you don't want to lose it don't leave it within reach.

Steve

<it is nothing to do with him being a 'dal'>

Sorry Sarah, have to disagree there.  Dal's are notorious theives, they are at there worst with food, but quite honestly it could be anything laying around, soft toys and underwear are favourites.

Unfortunately I doubt it is something you will improve, hopefully he should learn not to do it in front of you, but don't turn your back. 

It is something that really wound me up to start with as I had never had a dog that did this before, but now I have learn't to be on my guard with it, lost a whole cooked chicken recently though......lapse of guard on my side...mind you he was in the 'doghouse' for that, it was our Sunday lunch.

Sandra

I agree - mine whipped the chicken from my ex husbands dinner plate once...everything else was left perfect...covered in gravy, with a big gap where the chicken was. My fault...I shouldn't have had her anywhere near. He had cheese with it in the end :D :D

Notorious thieves they may well be - but he didn't jump up for a bag of mince because he is a dal...nearly every dog I know that is tall enough would have done the same.  Put any dog in a kitchen with a cooked chicken and see how many leave it :)
Sarah

My parents lurcher spends most of her time on her hind legs whilst in the kitchen :D :D

My parents used to have two yorkies and they used to 'bounce' up - just couldn't reach though...pesky heights :D

But there is a lot that you can do to minimize the jumping up and stealing :) My older dog was a bad thief as he had been a stray. It took two years before he would not pinch food and now, although I wouldn't trust him not to take food on the floor :) - he wouldn't take a sandwich if left on a coffee table, for example. It really is a case of teaching them that they can only have food when you say so and making them do something, if only sit and wait, every time that a meal or treat is given. Our dogs never jump up at work surfaces either. Obviously, some breeds are better than others, but I was assured by the trainers at our class that he would improve and he did, but it took a long time :) :)

Daisy

I disagree sorry   The dog needs to be taught right from wrong.  My dog will not do the same thing twice if I don't want him to.  He has learnt that if I don't want him to touch something then he shouldn't.  You should be able to tell a dog to leave and he should obey you and you don't get this by constantly tidying things out of his reach, you need to get your point across to the dog.  I am totally against smacking or harming but there comes a time when the dog needs to learn that he is being naughty.  They end up respecting you more for putting them in their place, you are the boss.  How can a frightening noise be physical punishment?  ok if you tug the collar there is contact but it's correction not punishment!

Thing is elh in this instance and IMHO a 5 month pup taking meat that was in reach may not as yet know that this is wrong - he is being a dog - will he now understand it is wrong because he has had a smack at possibly the wrong time???  And at five months this dog still is very much a pup...If your dog does wrong and you only have to tell him once then you are very lucky...My pup has been learning leave for a number of weeks now but I wouldn't trust her not to take something without my being there and she is 5 months.  I agree that as an owner you need to let your dog know when he is being naughty and performing a behaviour that is unacceptible to you, but I would not expect a picture of obedience excellence in the circumstance that we are discussing, especially given this dog's age - sure, lets begin to reinforce and reward desireable behaviour and punish/ignore bad but this dog cant be punished in this way for something that comes quite natural to any dog?
Sarah

Ok fine, but I thought that dogs needed to learn from the moment that they are brought into your house.  You cannot skip the first 5 months because they are young. This is a crucial time for a dog to learn.  Ok maybe the food should have been removed but the dog should have possibly thought twice about pinching it had this been corrected in the first instance.  The dog needs to think for itself what is right and wrong.

But dogs don't have a concept of 'right' and 'wrong' all they can understand is 'is this to my advantage' or ' are there disadvantages to doing this' and if the disadvantages outweigh the advantages then the likelyhood is they won't do it - HOWEVER- there will always be the one beahviour that the dog considers the reward is worth it WHATEVER the disadvantages.  Yes, puppies do need to be learning from day one, but at this age they can't reach the worktops, so it's a lesson that's very hard to teach (although you can teach them right from the start not to take anything unless they have been told they can have it, and you do NOT have to use physical contact methods) - a dog trained using positive methods learns to think about it's actions, rather than 'I can't do that now because Mum's in the room)......

Dogs do not 'THINK' they do what is instinctual.  Canines aren't capable of independent thought like humans are, which is where many of us go wrong!  In this case a dog has accomplished self gratification by performing a behaviour that comes natural to him - his reward was food.  If this is undesirable to the owner then sure, something has to be done about it.  This doesn't mean skip the first 5 months of its training life, I am merely saying that a pup's attention span at that age is quite short (about 3 minutes for my girlie :D)  this means looking at and understanding why the dog has done something, then condition his behaviour to conform to your wishes!  This, of course, can take time and it would be unfair to expect a pup to have learnt its lesson the first time it gets told off.  I'm afraid that by thinking a dog should have thought for itself what was right and wrong is a fall at the first hurdle.  We have to tell our dogs what is right and wrong in our pack, rather than assume they already know, because they dont. 
Sarah :)

Sorry digger - pretty much echoed what you said - must have posted at exact same time :)

My labradors are dogs, full stop. They`ve managed to nick stuff that I didn`t think they could get to, even my gsd rescue pinched 4kg of meat just last week & managed to get it out the plastic bag it was wrapped in & left the empty bag on the lawn! Where food is concerned if I don`t want them to pinch it I don`t leave it where any of them can get to it. And that also includes my mongrel as well! ;)

Christine, Spain.

ok ok I stand corrected! My point was that dogs need to learn right from wrong.  My dog has learnt not to do things that I don't want him to do and I trust him now.  Different methods work for different dogs.

your dog has learned what is safe and what is dangerous and/or what is wanted and what is not wanted.  Dogs do not do "right" or "wrong", this is a human concept :D

Yes, my point is he knows a difference!  that is all I am saying. ok right or wrong may be a human concept but my point is that he does realise.

Your dog doesn't really know the difference because he eats socks and pants (as mentioned on a seperate post) - He didn't sit there and think "now, if I eat these socks it could choke me, or block me" - He's a DOG...Its what they do - things go in their mouths!!!  Would you risk leaving him surrounded by socks and pants or are you confident enough to say I told him once he wont do it again.  If he choked on one would it be his fault because he should have known or would it be yours for 'leaving them in reach'?
Sarah :)

There's a difference between being sh*t scared and respect.  A dog whose been punished like this, particularly a more sensitive breed like a collie or a springer can become so withdrawn that further training is almost impossible.  Any sort of 'punishment' for a dog like this, even a coin can or water spray, can lead to such a deterioration in the trust between dog and owner that the dog simply shuts down :(

I would try and refrain from any physical punishment.  I have never smacked or hurt my dog in any way and never would.  If I was you would I would try the old water in a bottle sprayed right in the face trick or pebbles in a bottle thrown on the floor near to the puppy that gives him a fright.  Or even the most horrible frightening noise you can make yourself, followed by a series of tugs on the collar which indicates to the dog that this is not acceptable behaviour.  Smacking a puppy is not an ideal solution to bad behaviour.  I hope this helps.

Water sprays, pebble cans and collar tugs are still physical punishment.  Forget all of this and just put the food out of the dog's reach.  Like Chloe says the dog that has never been given the opportunity to 'steal' as a pup is unlikely to do so as an adult. 
Sally

How is a pebble can physical punishment ? unless you throw it at the dog :D :D

I agree though - prevention is better than cure ;)

>>How is a pebble can physical punishment ? unless you throw it at the dog 

Okay not physical unless it hits the dog - I stand corrected - but punishment nevertheless.  It can be intimidating and like all negative training methods will cause more problems than it will solve in some dogs.  I am SO biased towards positive training because I live with the basket cases that negative training has let down - so sorry - I will never support the use of aversives to train a dog. 

Sally

I understand :) 

I must admit it can also depend on the personality of the dog, you only have to frown at my parents lurcher and she sulks and wont come near you, where as other dogs have much more forgiving personalities.

I get the micky taken out of me by my boyfriend because I refuse to punish Lily - "reward the good and ignore the bad" thats my motto :D :D

I was sent to coventry by my husbands brother and his family for about seven years for refusing to punish a puppy that 'bit' his daughter.

dont even go there about the punishing a biting puppy thing, that is a constant argument :rolleyes:

Something i would recommend for the original poster is to get a copy of Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" as this explains in the most accessible terms why we have to understand dogs as dogs. It really is an exceptional book and is probably available from Amazon and def. from www.crosskeysbooks.com.....

I do agree that if this carries on, the Dal pup will either get scared of the owner (which the owner doesn't want) or, start to defend itself in an aggressive way, or become possessive of its nicked stuff.

Trying to get nicked stuff from a dog will also prove to the dog that that particular thing is a very very high value item and is worth getting because everyone else gets so worked up about it. This is a first stage in teaching a dog to be possessive :(

If this happens, then as someone else has mentioned it will be very difficult to get the dog to give up anything which may be dangerous to it. My dog brought in from the garden a large piece of some sort of roasted lamb rib the other day, which could have been dangerous IMO - but because she has been taught i never chase her or smack her, and has been taught the "bring", she actually "brought" me this prize. I was so grateful for reward based training which may even have saved her from an operation for a perforated gut.

Stu, as annoying as it can be (and we have all been there :D) do try and take it easy (have some Cadbury's Caramel!) and make a start by keeping all work surfaces clear. If you actually see the pup going towards food to grab it, you can use a sharp word to get its attention and then praise and reward for the pup obeying you and stopping.

Set up a sustem of child gates to keep the dog away from temptation.

Also try putting double sided ssticky tape along the sides of any counter if he is a regular counter surfer..... most dogs hate and loathe the sticky feeling on their paws ;)

Lindsay

Hi Stu

I think your last sentence illustrates very clearly why you should not punish any dog - it 's a useless 'tool' which seldom works.  If it did you would have a dog who didn't steal infront of you out of fear but would probably steal behind your back.  In short, punishment doesn't teach them right from wrong merely how to be devious.

You could try teaching 'leave' in small ways at first.  Offer a piece of food in your closed hand and make your dog wait saying 'leave' before you let him have it.  When he understands progress to putting him in a sit when you put his food bowl down and give command 'leave' until you say he can have it. 

Work on to him leaving toys on command etc and then when you are pretty sure he knows what it means start training him to leave stuff you deliberately put on worktops. 

Work on getting him to give up stuff in his mouth in a similar manner.  Offer him a soft toy to hold in his mouth.  Put a hand flat on either side of his muzzle and gently hook a finger on either side between his teeth and behind the toy.  Apply a LITTLE pressure as you pull forward and command 'Out'.  If he doesn't straight away just keep your hands in place and his jaws will start to ache a bit and you'll feel his hold slacken, as it does say good boy and repeat 'out' and keep doing so in small stages if necessary until you can take the toy.  THEN PRAISE and immediately give the toy back.  Do this regularly and your dog will learn what 'Out' means and he should do it on first command in time.

Pulling and forcing things out of the dogs mouth doesn't work.  The more pressure you apply the dog instinctively applies counter pressure to resisit.  You need to get your dog to work for you not against you.

Hope this helps

Hi stu!
i know you were  cross with him,but i dont think that punishing him like that would help in that situation,especially as hes already been "rewarded" by finding the mince!
Have you tried leaving some stuffed Kongs around to give him something "foodie" to do?& think about!
really the food should not have been left within his reach as im sure you know deep down! i would have probaley laughed if my dogs had managed such a grand theft & blamed myself!!!

I appreciate all the opinions. Thank you.

But to the people who insist that if the can reach/get it its fair game, I think you are missing a vital point.
What happens when he sees a small child eating a sandwich... "I could snatch that" will be his thoughts, and unless trained otherwise could possibly try to take it off the child. Result? Jasper injures the child and goes to the glue factory!.
some thing to think about?

ta

stu