Admin: Debate post branched from *Advice for new owners - mouthing*. In reply to Eog's post

when you say "put the pup aside" for a minute or so, what do you mean? Just move him away? Or restrain him away somewhere with his collar? Or put him in his cage (from what i know about cage training i would say this is a huge no!)?

my - albeit only 9 week old - cavalier king charles spaniel bitch play-bites/mouths a lot and seems to ignore being told "No" if she's at all excited. If its just me playing, i ignore her by sitting up on a big armchair (& pulling my legs up too so she can#t tug-of-war with my trousers/shoe laces!) but with visitors & the rest of the family i am not sure how to get it through to her that's she being denied attention.

I'm pretty sure she just needs omre time to settle in & get used to human ways, but want to make sure she's getting the right messages now......

thanks x

You need to ignore the behaviour you do not want & get evryone else to do so as well

It's not easy to do but you all need to be consistant

You are right that the crate should not be used for punishment

If you are playing with him & he starts to play bite stop immediately & when he stops reward him with calm praise

If you saw the way my four cavaliers played together you would inderstand that it is part of them being dogs, what they are not allowed to do is mouth me in the same way. My oldest cavalier dictates when he will accapt play & ignores the younger ones when he does not wish to partake, he never grumps or growls just totally ignores them his way of being alpha dog

Incidental question to a CAvalier owner, sorry to change subject - what collars do you use on such baby dogs? I've been getting her used to a elasticated cat collar (that i had to cut about 10 foot off anyway:)) but i don't want to use that to start getting her used to the lead on, the stretchiness doesn't seem right with it (although am not exactly sure why.)

I have a little soft suede collar (its a bit heavier and thicker, so she protests more at this one) that i've made a couple of extra buckle holes in and cut down the excess poking through (so it doesn't irritate by getting in her line of vision) adn i guess its best to move her onto that before getting her used to the lead.

Does this sound sensible? I think it would really help me to have more control over her if she had a collar on all the time as i would be able to remove her from things more effectively.

Also - what do people think about wearing collars while in wire crates? Crate instructions said never have collars on inside, due to risks from catching. But then i'm going to be on-off-on w collar all day, which could be even more disruptive. At mo i'm following the advice, but would be interested to know opinions/practices of others......

Thanks xx

Re wearing collars in crates, there has been the very occasional fatal accident - a few years ago, a Scottie pup was strangled in her crate as her collar caught. Her owners left her for about an hour and when they returned, she was dead.

Lindsay

eugh :( :( :(- that's what i thought was the risk. well mine's DEFINITELY staying off then! however much of a mindgame it is getting it on, i'm too attached to my little Ruby to risk that!

in fact - friend's advice on the phone today was to try a quick release collar, rather than a buckle one. that way there's less faffing round her neck to get it on. Sounds v promising......:)

THanks for posting htat - reckon the more people know about htose sort of incidents & take note (myself included) the better.

Hi. If it is just you there you are doing just the right thing - stopping play instantly, ignoring the pup and if necessary removing yourself from the situation. I used to get up and walk away the moment my pup (now grown) started to play bite. You might find that you hardly get a second of play in before having to walk away at first, but it will get better with perserverence. The key thing is that you walk away and ignore them for a full 5 mins (this means don't look at the pup, talk to it or acknowledge its presence in any way). After the 5 mins you can call pup to you and make a fuss, but must repeat the process if play biting starts again. You can even add in a yelp when bitten just before getting up and walking away - mine have been very sensitive to this.

With visitors, you can either enlighten them and ask them to ignore pup if play biting starts (if they are the sort to follow this kind of advice), or you can 'remove' the pup. This involves picking up the pup on first bite and putting him / her out of the room and shutting the door behind you. Leave him / her out of the room for 2-5 mins before opening the door again and letting him / her in with no big fuss. If the pup repeats the biting, the same thing happens. They learn quite quickly this way! The key thing is not to be cross or emotional but just to do it in a very matter-of-fact way - 'if you do this (bite) then that happens (play stops / you get put out of the room)' - they learn ever so quickly as long as you are completely consistent.

The removing the pup from the room thing can be used to deter the pup from many sorts of unwanted behaviour. I've found it especially useful for stopping my pups biting forbidden things (anything other than their toys or each other!). It only takes a few days to get the message through. You can always try saying 'no' in a disapproving voice, and if they take no notice (which they won't before they know the meaning of the word), then remove them from the room. This also teaches them what 'no' is and that you mean it when you say it!

Good luck!

PS - sorry for butting in on post - just re-read and saw you were asking a question in reply to another post (which I couldn't see). Also remember that there are no hard and fast rules - I'm just passing on what worked for me. As long as you are consistent and it's working then that's fine :)

THanks - no worries 'bout butting in at all, its cos i replied to something that was for advice only not debate, so my fault!

That advice sounds really useful - sounds like i will just have to try and train the family & friends even harder! eek...... its just sods law isn't it that while i'm working on training friends to react in the right way, its key socialisation time so i want to have lots of visitors. Aaaah - things can only get easier, i'm sure! (That bit's not up for discussion! I'm sure she iwll keep having her moments for a long while yet but i'm just not going to think about those, only think about the fun stuff....:) of which there is PLENTY!)

:) One other suggestion - have you tried thin hide chews for such eager jaws? They seem to work too as a bit of distraction and something the pup can really get teeth into. I'm sure you'll crack it in the end - some pups are definitely much worse biter / mouthers than others, so bear in mind that even if it takes a while and is really hard work it doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing it wrong - it may just be that you have a harder case than most! perservere and all will be resolved in the end (she says confidently..) imp

yes - have discovered those over the past couple of days. she likes bits of cardboard too. its just a question of decent rotation, otherwise she gets bored with them. good advice though.

she is DEFINITELY improving though - i had a real low on Saturdday :( as I was VERY tired and she was over-tired & over-excited from lots of visitor and she ended up biting me a lot harder than anyone would like. but with concerted consistent efforts from the family we are - touch wood - seeing an improvement.

any unwanted behaviour and we're going for the hard ignoring her - going suddenly silent, standing up & crossing arms & looking away if playing on the floor, sinking back in chair with feet & trousers out of reach w arms crossed if playing from chair, when she's been really over-exuberant we've left her on her own for @ 20 seconds - and she's DEFINITELY getting hte "bitey pups have no friends" message. (i think....)

and now i can see we're progressing, i am a million times happier :) :) :) she's such a sweetheart though, i feel like i have moaned lots about her on here but she is just adorable and gives me so much pleasure 95% of the time......

Sounding good - be prepared for occasional back slides as she remembers 'this used to work - maybe more biting will work better'........ It's so nice to hear that these techniques DO work -thank you :)

yes - i can almost SEE her thinking along those lines at times! But knowing we're getting somewhere & that 'out-thinking' Ruby will work helps. I never had a dog ever before 2 weeks ago and so i think i have been far more concerned about things than i should have been!

THanks for all yor help :)

Does sound like you are making excellent progress. Stick with it! The bit about "bitey pups have no friends" made me laugh out loud. :)

If you have to get this far with trying to resolve play biting, then you should get up and walk away from the pup - handling him in anyway would be rewarding him.

Sounds like some very good advice from the peeps above.

I know exactly how you feel... my GSP is 16 weeks old and play bites CONSTANTLY.

I must admit however, to being guilty of pushing him away and shouting "NO".... I am completely wrong in doing this aren't I?

Does this encourage him to bite even more? (part of the game)

If so, my counter-productive methods require immediate change!

Also, our 3 year old nephew is extremely scared of pup since he mouths SO much. I too am afraid that the mouthing may get excessive and hurt him...God forbid.

His mouthing has progressed to grabbing trouser legs or even your hand as you walk past him.

It would be less of a problem if he wasn't a 25kg "pup"!!!!

:)

I would suggest that getting up and ignoring would work better. It sounds like your big baby might just be treating it as part of the game - after all, he is getting a good reaction out of you! Try the 'if you bite, play stops immediately' thing. It's definitely worth a go, especially as he's so big! You just need to be very consistent with this method. Just one bite stops play for at least 5 mins. They soon get the message that this is no fun, and that they get more attention for longer if they leave the biting out of it! Make sure he has plenty of rope tuggies and things that he can play with with you and bite instead of your arms (I'm sure you are doing this anyway, so sorry to state the obvious!).

Re. grabbing trouser leg. If ignoring this doesn't work you could always try removing the dog from the room instantly to teach him that this behaviour is not acceptable. Your reaction must be swift and decisive. Don't speak to the dog, just gently but firmly lead him out of the room, shut the door and leave him there for 5 mins. They usually hate being excluded from the 'pack'!

With 3 year old nephew - you might find that your dog gets better with him once you've got him behaving better with you. However, it is also likely that he sees your nephew as below him in the doggie pack, especially as your pup is so big and your nephew is clearly frightened. Next time your nephew comes (and hopefully after have made some progress with your pup!) try getting him to completely ignore your pup when he first arrives (this is not always possible to do with such a young child) - this means not looking at, or speaking to, or touching the pup. This give the dog the message that he is 'below' your nephew in the pack, and doesn't deserve to demand attention from him until your nephew chooses. Also turning his back on the puppy if his behaviour gets too overbearing is a good thing to teach your nephew to do. Get him to keep his hands down (raising them only encourages the pup to want to get to them), stand still, and turn his back on the puppy, remainin motionless until the puppy loses interset. Not sure if this will work, but I know it did with our friends 3 year old twins when our lab was over-zealous as a big bouncing baby. However, until your pup has learnt the rules with you it may just be better to keep your nephew out of reach! As you say, it is very scary to think that a play bite might go too far.

Just a suggestion, but have you read either of Jan Fennell's books on dog behaviour in your human family 'pack'? They make interesting reading, and although her suggestions are almost impossible and don't always seem appropriate to follow to the word, they give a good basis for understanding how your dog might be thinking. It seems that making it very clear that you are 'top dog' (in a number of specific ways) rules out all sorts of naughty behaviour. It's definitely useful reading if you've got a big dog, as you have to use brain over braun to make sure that they're behaving in a way that is acceptable to you and your family.

Will stop waffling now! Afraid this is one of my pet (no pun intended!) subjects, as I find it so interesting, so I could probably bang on for ages, but will get on with my saturday morning *away* from the computer now :)

PS - I *love* GSPs. They are so full of life - I can imagine your boy is quite a (delightful) handful as a pup!

ooer 25kg pup - see where your worries come from. my little 2kg baby verges on scaring me at points (more of a reflection on my weediness though i guess!)

From my vast fortnight's experience - We definitely found with Ruby that shouting a lot only encouraged her. She is very sensitive to noise in gauging atmospheres (Classic FM is great for keeping her in a nice mood!) and so the more we did tactic of loud tellings off/yelping, the more she'd just get more and more wound up. We're going for saying a firm, strict (but not shouted) "No!" when she does unwanted behaviour (she bites & chews everything! stopped hands pretty much, but still loves available trouser legs and shoes....) and immediate ignorance and quiet by everyone in the room.

Hopefully this will also teach her the meaning of "No" - when she hears that, games stop immediately, everyone ignores her and does nothing and the atmosphere goes dead. No fun for pup any more.....

Another part of our strategy is that we realised she had been getting much more attention and exciiting atmospheres (ie hands on her, people focussing on her, lots of noise incl "Ruby!") when she was being bad - so when she's being good and esp when playing nicely with toys, i've tried to talk to her and be very exuberant (like children might be) and also stroke her, so she really starts thinking that playng with toys is MORE fun.

If she's pretty playful (which is pretty much every waking hour..... :) !) then if she appears to be chewing cos she needs to chew rather than for attention, i try to direct her trouser chewing onto a chew toy - but not so as she thinks she's being rewarded.

ANyway - that's what, touch wood, is working for us. In about 3 days she's honestly gone from chomping on me like i was a fine steak to coming over having a little scamper round and rolling over to get her tummy tickled first thing in the morning:)! SO much more manageable and nice....!

She's not perfect though - there are still the occasi0nal nips or attempts at trouser tug of war but its just a relief to know we're getting somewhere....

well my pup used to bite a fair bit too but all wed say a firm NO and if she tried again we would say bad girl and put a toy in her mouth and leave her there ,no more playing that way she knew the toy was ok to bite ,
after a few days she hardly bit us , but always had a toy in her mouth. just make sure your giving lots of different toys to play with and im sure she will stop