Hi there,

Wonder if anyone can suggest anything. Odin is a 5 month old Dobie and has just stopped his play biting phase (except when v excited and even then not with me but with my boyfriend). He is great most of the time and has met loads of people, generally very relaxed and even the vet said he's a lovely relaxed dog. He's big for his age and far bigger than all the other pups at his socialisation class (4.5 stones and counting). He's been going to puppy school for about 10 weeks now.

Anyway, this evening we had the last class and he wasn't terribly good in general, barking at all the other dogs and more aggressive than normal towards them (he'd played very nicely yesterday with our friends' Maltese who is <20% his size). He'd been really good all day so this was a bit upsetting to start off with. Then our trainer suggested we try a walkeasy collar with him as he is so big and strong and while she was trying to put it on him, he snapped at her and ripped her T shirt with his teeth and badly scratched her arm with his paw, with no warning. She was really good about it though very startled at the time. He has never ever snapped before, it was quite different to his play biting.

What do you think this could be? My partner and I were sitting behind him at the time and she was kneeling in front of him so I did wonder if it could have been a spot of fear aggression (he felt boxed in?). I'm very upset as we've tried so hard with socialisation and he has met loads of people, and in general he is very laid back. It's also pretty worrying as there was no warning. We love him to bits and want to find a way to sort this out, but without having to keep him away from people!

Any help would be greatly appreciated as the last thing I want is for him to fulfil people's dim expectations of dobies.

Jude

Hi Jude,

I can't help I'm afraid, as I'm terrible with behavioural probs...I'm always posting here to ask for advice!!

I just wanted to say, I hope everything goes ok for you and your dobe.
You sound like you're doing everything right, so maybe this was just a one off, and like you said, your dog may have felt trapped.

Sorry, I can't help, but I'm sure loads of people will be along soon with great advice.

Take care, and best of luck.

Lisa

Have a feeling some of the blame is the trainers. So get another trainer, IMO it is not sensible to offer help or training ideas when there is a aggressive problem, on the web. As you really need to see the problem and situation first hand to offer help, otherwise you could make matters worse or even dangerous. So sorry as I am for your situation, I think you need to find a trainer who can assess the situation first hand. You could look at the APDT web site. http://www.apdt.com/trainers-and-owners/trainer-search/choosing-a-trainer.htm

Thanks Lisa for the support.

Jackie, thanks for this and yes, I understand that we can't solve his problem over the net but it is a good place to let off steam as it's pretty distressing when your dog does something like this! Plus I have seen a great deal of useful ideas or different ways of looking at things here. We are enrolling for the next obedience class at our local training club and may seek a behaviourist. I suppose the problem is even with them we'll be telling them second-hand what happened as we don't want to try and repeat it and so far it has been just a one off.

Jude

Hi Jude, yes, I know how it feels. Do try contacting one of the trainers listed on the site I gave you, they will come and look at the dog, not try to repeat the problem but will know how to see what the problem is, they will talk to you and help you understand what may set you dog off and how to avoid the situation and deal with it should it still occur.

Hi

Sorry to hear about the upset with your pup and trainer but I agree with what's been said before. We are always quick to blame the dog for doing wrong and that's not necessarily right. I also agree that some trainers have a lot to answer for. I once saw a trainer put her hand in a dogs collar and twist it til it yelped in pain because she wanted to show someone how to get the dog to come in closer to heel!!! If that dog had bitten her I for one would have given it a pat on the back. The same trainer told me to force a dumbell back into my dog's mouth to make him spit it out so he could learn the command 'out' means give up what you've been told to hold! Needless to say, I decided to train my dogs myself.

You say your pup bit without warning but I doubt that it was as straight forward as that. It is very unusual for a dog to attack without warning - sometimes the warnings just aren't noticed and recognised by people.

Aggression is very hard to deal with without seeing the dog but at least you are aware you may have a problem and can seek help nearer to home.

Elaine

Hi

Sorry, duplicated posting - one day I'll work out how to delete!

Elaine

Hi Elaine, to delete, clip on edit at the top right of your post, then scroll to the bottom and you will see on the left the magic word 'Delete'.

Hi Jude, maybe those of us with adolescent dogs should have a support group! It was just unfortunate this was the last class Odin found so difficult and I bet he was giving signs he wasn't happy before he snapped. Just trying to say I feel for you - Master Morse once wrecked a puppy class spectacularly by racing about the hall teasing the on lead dogs and refusing to be caught by a trainer with 30 years experience of dogs - she tells owners of bouncy puppies the story to cheer them up. I'm sure all your good work with Odin won't be undone by this as you have a good bond with him and are taking action to correct it. Keep your chin up and don't worry, yu can fix it!

Hi, the thing that I noticed was in your first post you said 'more aggressive to the other dogs than normal', that implies that he has been aggressive before. I'm not attacking you by the way, you obviously love and care for your dog very much and as he is so young I'm sure you'll be able to sort the problem out, but you will have to be really honest with yourself. He's getting older now, so signs that he is nervous or unsure of things will start to become clear, but that doesn't mean he wasn't nervous before. If he has always been fearful, then you will have to take that into consideration.
It's all too easy to blame the trainer, but as you say she was putting a harness on him, it's hardly the same as twisting a collar to make him yelp! It sounds like you've been very lucky that this happened with someone who knows and cares about dogs, if it had been a complete stranger in the street you might have found yourself in trouble with the dangerous dogs act! I'm not trying to scare you, it's not going to come to that because you've recognised the problem very early.
Fearful dogs that I have known tend to cope in most situations, but an intense one will bring out the fear aggression response, it doesn't mean they are only frightened then though, just that they are scared enough to resort to aggression.
You also say that he bit without warning, if he felt very cornered and stressed, he would have gone through the warning signals very quickly, I daresay most people would have missed them! What have you been doing when he's been barking at other dogs? If you have been telling him off at all, you may just have inhibited the warning signals, meaning he went straight to snap without going through them first.
Are you on good terms with your trainer? Have a word with her about it if you are, it sounds like she's been very understanding so far, and I very much doubt she would take offence at you looking for a behaviourist, she might even be able to recommend one for you. Trainers are not behaviourists, and a good one will accept that! I think you really need to be able to talk about what she thinks happened, as being one of the only people there she'll have her own opinions which may offer a different perspective.
I've had my fair share of bad trainers over the years, and every single one would have blamed the dog for that straight away! From what you've said, your trainer isn't like that, so don't sever all communication just yet, she may have a lot to offer!

regards,
Jo

HI everyone,

Thanks for this. JUst to be clear, we were going to positive reward based training and our trainer certainly wasn't twisting his collar or anything like that though of course she could have inadvertently pulled his paw. She's a lovely woman and it's been a great class, just not sure what happened yesterday. I'm very aware that we are 'lucky' that this happened with her and she's been understanding and not with a child as I've no doubt we'd be in trouble and facing demands for him to be put down. The fact that he's going to be a big fellow is why we've been working so hard at socilaisation! Our trainer is going to speak to her network of puppy school trainers and get back to us.

Odin has not been fearful before (generally v laid back as vet said), he's a bit barky round other dogs but it's usually that he wants to play. Saturday he played really nicely with our friend's Maltese who is much smaller and he usually gets on with most of the other dogs at the class, apart from a GSD that's extremely snappy at other dogs who the trainer regarded as the problem dog that needed work at our class! He was just unusually bad tempered though yesterday with the others. I was trying to teach him 'quiet' when he barked buy sayng 'quiet' and rewarding him when he was. did wonder if the apparent intolerance of the others yesterday was that he was getting a bit hormonal as he is big for his age (I think).

Might go to the vet first and check he's not sicky and see what she says and look into getting a pet behaviourist asap, while enrolling in the further obedience classes and have him continue to meet people whilst keeping a firm eye and firm hold.

I've just been worried sick all night and morning :(

Jude

Don't worry so much, no trainer should get bitten, they should be aware and should wear loose cloths to protect themselves, so it was not your or your dogs fault alone. You will get over this problem and through this most difficult time in a dogs life. Believe me you are not the first to have problems and you will not be the last. Chin up and struggle on.

This might seem an odd thing to say, but it's really good you're worried sick, it's exactly that attitude of taking things seriously which will enable you to deal with it before it gets out of hand! I don't think you need to be as worried as you are though, a snap is just part of a dogs language, it's obviously not an acceptable behaviour, but it is not as though he chewed her arm off!
It sounds like he physically could have done a lot more damage if he wanted to, so he was obviously holding back, which is good.
Don't start beating yourself up about it, or worrying unduly. A class situation can be stressful for dogs, he was obviously feeling the strain. You will be able to build his confidence slowly without putting him in such intense situations so you can prevent it from happening again. It was probably lucky that it happened in one sense, you are now aware that he will need an extra bit of socialisation, if it hadn't happened you might have ended up with a huge problem once he's fully grown.
I agree that getting a behaviourist in is the way to go, better safe than sorry!
I'm sure with caring owners like you, your dog will be fine and this will soon be a distant memory!
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you,

Jo

just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that in this case the trainer was to blame, just agreeing with someone who responded to you - 'that sometimes trainers are to blame'. The incident I described was to show that in some instances the dog might bite but it would be understandable. It just may have been that your pup was feeling very frightened by someone other than you handling him in such a close manner and maybe she (the trainer) didn't recognise the signals he was giving off.

Sometimes we can expect too much of our dogs - dogs are dogs - they bark, they growl, they snap and they bite. It's part of their communication and defense system. Sometimes they feel threatened and resort to snapping. But the dog may not necessarily be 'aggressive' he's just trying to tell us something. We can try to socialise them as much as possible in the hope that they won't ever feel so uncomfortable that they snap but short of pulling out their teeth and having them de-barked we just may have to accept that dogs are dogs and respect them for all that they are.

No I was not blaming the trainer for what the dog did, I just said the trainer should have been more aware of the situation and that the dogs owner should not beat herself up over it.

In my first post I suggest she gets a trainer into look at the situation and may be see things that the family are unaware of. They will then be in a better situation to understand the best way to go, any trainer worth their salt will suggest a visit to the vet for a check up as the first step.

I agree that it is never a good idea to give "answers" to aggression, but i wonder if it is possible he was just incredibly frustrated and hyper? If he had been "controlled" all evening (and i know the barky thing, oh how i know it!) he might have seriously objected to anyone trying yet more "control".

I forget what the Walkeazee is, is it a harness?

It may mean that he just "lashed out" - not that this is acceptable behaviour, but it may be an explanation. Some dogs don't deal very well with frustration ..... esp. if they are haven't had to deal with it much as puppies.

I too picked up on the "more aggressive than normal" part, but you explained that.... but you did also say he was *unusually* bad tempered....if a dog changes in behaviour almost overnight, it is always worth a vet health check up just in case. It would put your mind at rest that there was no medical reason for his behaviour.

I do wish you luck, don't worry too much, you sound like the sort of owner who will be able to sort this out with help :)

Lindsay

Me again, meant to say I think it very important that the owner does not get upset about what happened, there is nothing like an upset owner for upsetting a dog. The owner was doing the correct thing and taking the dog to a trainer, when you do that you hand most of the responsibility to the people in charge and do as they suggest, so in my view what happened is not your fault.

Hi Lindsay and everybody,

The walkeasy (not sure of its brand spelling) is a kind of harness that goes across the chest to restrict pulling. We already use a different sort as he's so strong and she was just suggesting another type. We have also been working hard on heel as well and he is improving a lot. I said 'unusually' as he's never bad tempered, sorry have been writing frantically as so upset!

While still very concerned, feeling a wee bit better as our trainer came round to assess him at home tonight and said we were pretty much doing the right things, just to keep at the training and socialisation and make sure he meets as many other dogs/people as he can, while keeping the obvious look out for any danger signals. We're off to the vet tomorrow to check him out (he's had a few squidgy poos this weekend so he could be off colour) and will see what she says re what happened and possible referral. Our trainer is also consulting her colleagues and we are enrolling in the next stages of training at a couple of local clubs so that's our social life sorted for the rest of our lives :)

Hopefully we will get there and he'll grow up to be a credit to his breed! Thanks for listening everyone, it's certainly helped me get through the day.

Many thanks,

Jude

I'm sure he will be a credit to his breed, and to his owners too!

best of luck, and stay cheerful,

Jo

It does sound as if your social life is sorted out for a long time to come ;) - that's one of the really nice things about joining a dog club. You just cant help meeting people, many of whom have had similar problems with their dogs/puppies.

Best wishes

Lindsay

Thanks again guys. As a postscript, we took him to the vet on Tuesday and she said that she thinks he's become intolerant to diary products (he had a few of the symptoms apparently, think I mentioned the bad poo!). We used to feed him milk with his meals following the breeder's diet sheet and we used cheese as his treat with training (how he loves cheese!)! Apparently dietary intolerance can sometimes cause aggression so it could have contributed to his being off with the other dogs and snapping at our instructor, though of course it's still entirely unacceptable behaviour. I'd not heard of this.

Anyway, she again said that he seemed very biddable and laid-back, despite having a thermometer stuck up his bottom by a trainee vet(the other vet at the practice had even written this in her notes) but has recommended a local behaviourist if we want to pursue this. I think we will get him assessed to see if there's anything else we could do.

Onwards and upwards!

Well done sure the step by step aproach is the best way, lets hope stopping the diary products will give you enough improvement to restore you confidence.

:)

I'm so glad he went to the vet; a surprisingly big percentage of dogs who visit a behaviourist for aggression are discovered to have some sort of medical problem.

I really do hope the intolerance to dairy foods caused this set back, it does sound like it- fingers crossed!!!

Lindsay

Hi'

Just wanted to say both of my children are intolerant to dairy produce and have a hyperactive reaction with extremely bad attitude, as long as they have no dairy produce they are both the sweetest people you could hope to meet. One thing we have learned though is that milk and dairy products can be sneakily hidden in almost anything and turn up in the most surprising foods including sausages and burgers , and the same goes for dog foods, beware of lactose, casein, whey and "milk proteins" - some complete foods contain these

Good luck and I'm sure you will get there in the end :)

Regards
Dill