Can anyone recommend a good gundog training book that doesn't use shouting/pinching/shock collars please?

I don't have a gundog but he is very high drive and I'd like to teach something new whilst out. I particularly like the idea of whistle training and have started getting recall linked to the whistle and sit/stay but would like to read up a bit more on directional training etc.

Thanks :)

What sort of gundog training? Retrieving, or pointing or setting etc? (I'm having a lot of trouble finding a good book about setter training.) A very nice little book is "A simple approach to  gundog training" by John Weller and is completely against any form of harsh training methods, but it is primarily about training labradors.

Thanks :) That may very well suit him, he is a very bouncy athletic Rottweiler, maybe even a cross. High prey drive, very keen on training/working with me so I thought gundog training may be ideal.

I didn't think about what type of gundog training but I guess retrieving would be what would tie in well. He already has a very good retrieve with a ball and can get him to retrieve pretty much anything around the house. I've bought a dummy which he will retrieve though not with as much enthusiasm as a ball so I'm focusing on a quick throw of the ball being a reward for retrieving the dummy - the ball is also a reward at the moment for whilst I'm trying to link the whistle plus new hand signals for sit/stay and recall. But I don't want to bombard him with too much at the moment so only focusing on whistle for recall and sit/stay.

From reading around it seems:

1 long pip plus hand raised on my left for stop/sit and stay
2 short pips for direction with with hand out stretched in the direction I want him to go
3 short pips (or continuous) for recall

As a starter but I'd like to read up a little more as I've never trained this before.

Most of the gundog breeds have there own way of going about things, labs nice and steady on the retrieve, spaniels charging through cover nose to the ground, pointers freezing and well... pointing! I've had golden retrievers for nearly thirty years who work well retrieving etc, but their main claim to fame is air scenting bird and they are particularly good on partridge which tend to sit tight allowing the scent to rise up and away rather then leaving a trail for the Springer to follow. My last retriever had a very good nose and quite often be would galloping along in a field, stop dead head raised, sniffing intently then dash off at a tangent and flush out a sitting bird.
It's almost as if there should be different books for different breeds of gundogs. If my next retriever has a good nose I'm thinking of going to training for using scenting. A friend goes to classes and workshops with her Munsterlander and its given him a good workout as he has a lot of drive.

Yes agree with JGs suggestion. John is a very knowledgable and experienced gun dog handler .

I am a newbie to gundog sports and don't think I will be able to progress too far with my HPR breed, it's proving an immense struggle to get into in this part of the world. But I have read and enjoyed Clicker Gundog by Helen Phillips. I can recommend it!

Hi.  You might like to look at Lez Graham's Gundog Training books.  She has now written three - The Pet Gundog Puppy, The Pet Gundog and The Advanced Pet Gundog.  They are very readable and have an emphasis on making the training fun and building a good relationship with your dog.  I don't actually work my dogs formally but I do enjoy training them in the basics (with dummies) and find it a lot of fun and of course they love it and it helps with general obedience.  I think the principles would be fine for non-gundogs too.  Lez's books relate mostly to retrieving but there is a lot of good general information in the books, too - and lots on whistle training.  Next time I have a pup & am starting 'from scratch' I will certainly follow a lot of the guidance in her Puppy book.   Her website is www.the petgundog.co.uk

I also like Pippa Mattinson's website and Gundog Training Guides.  She writes very clearly in a step by step approach and includes clicker training methods for teaching various stages of the retrieve, which I really like.  You can follow the training online or order her printed guides.  Pippa appears on a number of websites.  A good way in is on -
totallygundogs.com

I have learned a LOT from both these writers and I like their friendly, non-aversive sensible approach - haven't read every word of them yet, but there seems to be no 'talking down' to the reader and no harsh methods!

Good luck.

HPR training. I would strongly recomend Rory Major for sucessfull HPR training.
There is a lovely video available that Rory has made, it is very informative and extremely useful.
Rory major is a "kind" trainer, he is quiet with his dogs who all respect him and none have any fear of him.
He lives in Lincolnshire and his prefix is" Bryantscroft". He is easy to talk to and will answer any question with honesty. If you Google "Bryantscroft Gundogs" you will find his contact details.  Thoroughly recomended. :)

To be honest, if you want to train directional commands and whistle cues and you have a Rottie or Rottie x, I'd suggest you think about working trials instead of gundog work.  It includes all the elements you're talking about and you'd be able to compete with him and attend training events with him too.  You wouldn't be able to attend gundog training events with a Rottie...

I agree with Rabid, Working trials deal far more with directional training  recalls send aways search squares .  

If he is a Rottie type I'd be worried about the scale in W/Trials, esp the drop on the other side. But then you can choose just to train the other elements and not do the scale if you don't want to.

Wow. Thanks for all of the suggestions, I'll be looking/purchasing all of the books mentioned.

I have contemplated working trials, he could easily manage a 6 ft fence, just a good job he doesn't know lol I'm not sure what he is crossed with but he has a slim waste, isn't that large, can move so fast and bouncy like a boxer. Not your average Rottweiler.

My main aim was to give him something else to do on walks rather than playing ball. If however he finds me gundog training him as enjoyable as I think then I may join a class :)

I have a copy of the John Weller book if you would like it ?
PM me you address
I did some work for John on the pictures, great guy, knows what he's talking about

Thank you Ingrid, that's very kind of you - will pm you :)

Don't forget Champdogs search facility :) If you type 'whistle training' into the search facility at the top/bottom of this page, you will find many past threads that may be of interest on this subject.

Thanks, will do :)

You might like this website for such training.  http://www.duckhillkennels.com/forums/

My Lab is whistle trained to recall and distance sit.  I did it mostly myself with some invaluable input from a U.K. gundog sit where I found a reference to North/South fetching.  How this works is, two balls, throw one N. as soon as he picks it up throw the other S.  Dog has to race past you to get the second ball, thereby planting a note in his brain that back in your direction gets another throw.  You go at his pace, don't worry about getting the balls back properly but slowly morph it into a pause by you, a sit by you, a give to you and then you are only throwing one ball.  My Lab "got it" in 10 throws.  Until this he would "trieve" like mad but failed to "re" as one trainer put it.  I later morphed in the whistle the same way.  For us recall is three tweets.

My trainer showed me how to whistle sit.  I was taught you train the sit first, before the recall, but I forget why, maybe because it's harder?  Anyway, his method was so easy.  Dog on leash, whistle in mouth.  Say SIT through the whistle as you pull up on the leash a wee bit.  It'll make a bit of noise which you morph into a full tweet.  One tweet for sit for us.  Pretty soon all you need is a tweet for sitting beside you. 

Then I used a stick to introduce distance.  First we sit in front of the stick, many times.  Then I have him recall, no whistle recall just yet, oh, maybe that's why.  Anyway recall only a few feet to the stick which is between me and him.  Tweet just as he gets to the stick.  He's been learning to sit just behind the stick, now the only difference is the stick is a bit in front of you.  Gradually increase the distance to the stick and to you.  Remove the stick, shorten the distance.  Gradually increase again.  Worked for me.  The stick idea is from the first competitive obedience class I took 20 years ago with my first Lab.  We used a stick in a similar way for distance downs.

Good luck, we didn't get to directional but I use my hand signals for that.  Often I need a distance sit and at a distance he should sit facing me, then I can hand signal to where he should go.

Thanks for this jetsone, very detailed description. Love the idea of using a stick almost like a barrier and using 2 balls to get the dog used to coming back to me.

Just on your whistle commands, I don't use any for redirections, just hand/arm signals.  Some people use verbal commands as well, but I've never come across anyone who trains redirection to the whistle with gundogs, working trials yes, but that's completely different. 

To train the sit/stop, do this at heel first, and as you get the 'sit' at heel, introduce a hand signal and the whistle, hand flat palm out towards dog at your side. 

Recall is several short pips for my dogs.  To tell the dog they're in the area of a retrieve, if they need it, I use the hunt command, either a verbal 'There' or a whislte 'tweet-twoo'; and you can also indicate with your hand the approximate location, arm down, hand horizontal indicating the retriever is 'there'. 

It becomes more interesting the more you read about how scent works, finding good training areas help as well, long fences and/or walls to build up straight lining are a must. 

>Some people use verbal commands as well, but I've never come across anyone who trains redirection to the whistle with gundogs,

It is something Hunt, Point, Retrieve (HPR) folk tend to use. Usually, two pips (to turn) and a hand single to confirm the direction you wish the dog to go (if needed) :)

Thinking of spaniels, they use a single pip to get them to turn and quarter in front of them, but they don't take directions, they are simply trained to go the other way.  Interesting to know that for HPR's, I must admit I've not seen them worked very much, mainly retrievers and spaniels I'm afraid. 

When I used to go to working trials training, we used a shepherd's whistle to get a variety of sounds to train directions to a whistle command.  It took me ages to learn how to use the shepherd's whistle, never mind anything else!! 

I didn't realise fully until you and the two posts below stated that's its to let the dog know to go the other way! Thanks :D

From watching YouTube clips I presumed it was more to get the dogs attention and to look at you for direction - then the handler held their arm out to whichever side they wished the dog to go. I guess the one pip stop and sit wherever you are is more to get direction.

I'm getting good results with the recall and the whistle, whistling before dinner, before I put leads on, random tasty chicken etc. Outside with no distraction went well today too. They are both good at recall already which help so I'm only having to link the whistle with the command.

Started the sit on lead as you suggested today. I meant to reply to this last night but ended up having an early night :)