I would like so general opionions on the use of muzzles please ( a bit of along one)
I have a baskerville muzzle which so far I have never used but I know occasionally when my gsd is getting ott with other dogs his dog walker who I trust to handle him properly uses short term the fabric muzzle which allows him to open his mouth just alittle.
I havent seen him with it on but apparently and i can imagine this to be the case he sees it as apunishment and become docile just walking quietly beside her in her words looking like he is in trouble

The reason behind this inspite of loads of training and help from a very good apdt behaviourist he is still on occasion likely to bounce across the neck of dogs randomly andbarking and causing a right carry on. The behaviourist says it is fear/nervousnes that causes this although to see him generally he does come over as
a nervous dog. He does however allways and particularly around me start barking and will lunge towards other dogs.I therefore avoid walking near others or return him to his headcollar when I can control him better.  I
Generally he isnt a problem for my walker being on private land and with dogs he knows just occasionally he gets ott. My oh says he is no problem with him at all saying he just mooches along ignoring most things and occasionally playing . My son however takes the same precautions as I do for the same reasons.
Very shortly due to oh being out of work I am changing the arrangements for my dogs (3) Would you in these circumstances regularly muzzle your dog which I feel would make walking 3 a lot easier ( I dont usually walk 3 together but may have to)and I could relax something I never do if I am with him> infact I am so sensitive to things going wrong that I hate taking him out although I love him to bits but I have a dislike of muzzles as maybe wrongly I feel it give the impression he is dangerous. Where I live I really dont need that but nor do I need an accident. Also this boy is ball mad and I cant see how he can enjoy a walk without his ball. Also which would be the best muzzle if I went that way and woul he get used to it not seeing it as punishment.
All this makes him sound like a nightmare and certainly with me things are more likely to happen and I think this is partly my problem ie expecting a problem. At home he is the sopiest cubddliest thing imaginable and with no other dodgs around is completly relaxed its just the odd other dog that sets him off.

You advice would be apprecatiated thank you
 

I have a friend whose dog was randomly dog aggressive.  Usually it would be handbags at dawn type thing but now and again she would really have a go.  If we went out in a group she would muzzle her for the first part of the off lead, once everyone had settled down and had a bounce she would take the muzzle off.  It meant she could relax, the dog saw it as a treat as it meant she could have a run and a play. 

I would think as long as your boys recall is ok you could do something like this, muzzle for the first bounce then muzzle off and play ball.  He obviously does not need it on when on lead and if he is into his ball he sounds like he is unlikely to shoot off and maul a random dog.

That describes him and yes his recall is pretty good especially if I have a spare ball to hand

I would also wonder if he thinks he is back on his lead when the cloth muzzle is on?  It's not going to be that different a sensation from being called over and having a headcollar put on, hence the staying to heel afterwards.

The good thing with a basket type one is that you can pop it on at home, give him a couple of treats then pop it off. 

I think though if I were walking him I would be looking for signs a bit earlier and calling him in for a bit of fetch or a lead on spell for a few minutes rather than letting him get thuggish then muzzling.  You might be able to train it out of him that way perhaps in combination of putting the muzzle on for the first bit of play.

One of mine does not like other dogs running up 'in his face', a lot of people let their dogs do this. We used to put him on a lead when there were other dogs around, however, this did not solve the problem as people let their dogs run at him.

We now use a baskerville muzzle on him if there are other dogs around. We feel it is for the safety of other dogs, and also that of our own dog. Most people (when they see your dog with a muzzle on) keep a wide berth, so why don't they when you put your dog on a lead?

He too likes to retrieve so we walk him far enough in to the forest where we can find somewhere on our own. We find we have a much more enjoyable walk this way.

I have done loads of training with him and taken advice from good trainers ( as well as some not so good:( ) he is leads better now at 5 yeard old but there is stiull this bit in him that I could never be one hundred percent so I now need startergies. The current ones being very successful ie his dog walker takes him daily and he has loads of safe off lead time. If I walk him it has to be road walks only because I am too nervouse ( i know that doesnt help ) but with changes afoot due to financial constaints he needs to have free running off lead but safely both for him and others "just in case " and a panicing owner is never helpful :)

So is baskerville better than the fabric ( mikki) style ?

I think so - certainly better so that he can be rewarded while it is on, and I think better for him to be able to still open his mouth more.

you really shouldnt be using the mikki fabric muzzle for walking in, thats not what they are designed for.

I think unless his recall is almost perfect i would be using the basket muzzle as a precaution, which means you can also reward him when he sees other dogs and doesn't react.

When you have a very random/unpredictable problem like this, it is really easy to forget to reward all the GOOD interactions, and take them for granted and only consider doing something when it all goes wrong.

A fabric muzzle is NOT suitable for being walked in AT ALL.  They are for very short term use - a minute or two at most during a high stress situation (e.g. being handled at the vet, and even then shouldn't be put on too long before the dog is actually seen).

In order to stop a dog from being able to bite/nip, they have to be very tight - tight enough that the dog cannot pant.  IOf the dog cannot pant, they cannot regulate body temperature properly.  They also cannot reduce stress levels through panting so if this dog is doing what he's doing through fear/nerves, he's going to need to be able to pant as one of a number of coping mechanisms.  If his mouth is restricted it's going to stress him more; that can increase temperature and get a vicious circle in motion.  I've seen dogs nearly passed out from that factor alone wearing these damn things, while stood perfectly still in the vet's waiting room.

On top of that, very often they aren't tight enough to fully prevent a bite - and that's when awful injuries can happen.  A while back I read a behaviourist's account of an aggressive dog wearing one, the dog managed to get another dog's ear in his mouth but because of the muzzle, couldn't then release it - all he could do was rip it off and swallow it so he could breathe properly.

If your dog walker needs to muzzle him then leave the baskerville out for her to take when she walks him.  I'm afraid I honestly think fabric muzzles should be banned.

Thank you for that information on muzzles I was worried about the things you pointed out with the fabric ones (he only down side for him apart from getting used to it
to the basket muzzle was being unable to play with balls.  With regard to my dog walker it isn't. A walking situation  more day care they are. Off lead mostly in private land. The muzzle was used as he was being ott and grabbing over the neck something he occasionally does and is checked for this time she put the muzzle on for a very short while. Can't say I am overly happy he needed it as far as I know this hasn't happened before in the 4 years he has been walked by them and wonder if he is getting worse ? M.y  problem is that I have worked with him with help since he started this behaviour as a pup and while he is much much better things can still happen and I am trying to decide together with continual praise and reward what best to do as is making walkinh in pubblic places really stressful just in case something happens

Appologies once again for my appaling typing I have been using my mobile which is even worse than the pc. Thank you those people who have managed to understand me and taken the time to give advice :)

You can get balls with bits on that can be used with muzzles, I know someone who uses them.  Can't find a blasted picture anywhere of them, but imagine a ball with maybe 8 pinky-sized nodules on that the dog can get through the muzzle to pick up the ball.  Solid thing too, none of your flimsy stuff by the look of it.  If I find a picture I'll post it.

What else is the dog walker doing to help stop the behaviour?  Just putting a muzzle on won't do any good long term unless there is work like you've been putting in too, and if she's putting on in response to him doing it then it's too late anyway as he's had another chance to practice doing it.  How is he 'checked' for doing it?

From what you have said this happens when he is interacting with other dogs rather than being a true dog aggressive thing where he would attack a dog that comes into sight, if he loves his ball as much as you say I would take the muzzle off when you play with it as his focus is going to be all about the ball.

Sorry but this is not necessarily the case. I know this to my cost. :-(  My lab was completely ball obsessed and just lived for his ball retrieving.  However, one morning in a completely empty field, in the middle of a retrieving session, he suddenly took off, ran the complete length of the playing field and attacked a young GR dog which had just entered with its owner. :-(

Yes Ida I could see that happening for me too. Its random. I like the spiky ball idea Nikita if you are able to get a pic or a link that would be helpful. Many thanks 

I'd be interested in seeing the spiky ball too as I have a wonderful male who's fantastic 90% of the time but not for 10% of it.  I don't take him out on a muzzle and always check the fields but do worry at times in case another dog came into it.  At this very minute one of my girls is sat with her baskerville muzzle on as she's taken a dislike to her mother and she's soon got used to it and now comes up to me when I want to put it on.

> Sorry but this is not necessarily the case. I know this to my cost. :-(  My lab was completely ball obsessed and just lived for his ball retrieving.  However, one morning in a completely empty field, in the middle of a retrieving session, he suddenly took off, ran the complete length of the playing field and attacked a young GR dog which had just entered with its owner. :-(

Oh heck :-(  This is why I tell people with aggressive dogs that using a toy as a distraction is fine only if they will be doing work alongside it to teach the dog how to actually cope with and read other dogs.  Balls as distractions are great but for some dogs, they just stop them learning about other dogs through complete focus.

ETA - I've PMd the person I know with the spiky ball to get the name of them, I'll post when I get it :-)

Hiya, sorry not to have replied quicker Niki.  Not been on here for an age but it is me that uses the toys with my Dober girl and her muzzle. 

The reason I use these as she needs a chase outlet (an appropriate one as other wise she will find her own things to chase) but it is used within reason as to much throwing just increase adrenaline and can have it's own set of problems and I wouldn;t throw it with dogs in close icinity as usin as a distraction can be counter productive as they can get taken by suprise by a scarey dog or guardy etc etc. 

Anyway that aside - They don't do the original ones that I used that were made by goodboy and were a bit more robust that these which are also fine for the purpose :-)

http://www.amazon.com/PetProjekt-Large-Cozmo-Non-Toxic-Toys/dp/B005D4NJ2Y

Hope that helps.

Thanks very much Karen :-)