can a shiba inu be let off lead ?
and i have also been told that they are not good with little dogs ?

is there anyone that can confirm these questions for me please thankyou

theya re dog dominant, and have a strong hunting drive, so I would say they are not reliable off lead.  Well trained in safely enclosed area maybe.

I get told they are like mini-Akitas with a worse attitude as they have 'little-dog' syndrome.  I think they are better off-lead than Akitas though but that's not saying much!
I don't have any personal experience.  A lot of Akita people had a 'mini' as a housedog.

I get told they are like mini-Akitas

Well they are spitz but otherwise I would not think they really look more like an Akita than other spitz and what is so wrong with Akitas that you would use them as an example of what is bad about a Shiba

Oh sorry, I didn't realise it came across that way. 
Absolutely nothing wrong with Akitas at all.  I just meant that the majority of folk have trouble letting akitas off lead and if shibas are just them in mini, they would be just as bad.  That's all.
And Akitas aren't the best with other dogs, if shibas have the akita attitude in spades but with little dog syndrome? That was enough to put me off!!lol.

well no problem with a mini akita we have a big akita and spitz already, just i have heard so many different things about them, some people said there prey drive is terrible, you must never let them off lead unless enclosed area,

but then i spoke to a lady from america and she has two and they both do agility and flyball and she has had no problems as she knows that is what i would like to do as well as breed show.

at the moment we are still in the looking into stage
we are going to have to do some more research and talk to a lot
more people before a decision is made
we do like them , but need to make sure it is going to be right for the dog and us.

I've heard that they are not good with other breeds.

They can also climb like cats.  A lady in my breed also breeds them and has/had a photo of one sitting on top of a 6 foot dog run fence.  http://www.steldawn.co.uk/shibas/

Yep it's still there on this slideshow http://www.steldawn.co.uk/steldawn-candid-pictures/dogs-cats-and-various-animals/

Thank you for the website, loved the pic of the shiba on top of the fencing, and also the one as a PAT / HELPER dog , have been in contact with the breeder and asked a lot of questions so hopefully will get some answers , they may not be the dog for us but think it is worth finding out before we get one

stunning photos,thanks for sharing!

Well, just to say, when we first got akitas, we were told you can never let them off and they are rubbish at obedience, no good with other dogs and a lot more things that would have you running for the hills.
We trained early and consistantly and we had a pack of 8 akitas(males and females), all of whom could be walked off-lead and all the males did obedience to a very high standard.  They would never return to me off-lead but they would stay on command(even if running) and wait till I clipped the leash on if I saw another dog approaching.
The 'breed traits' are important but a dog is a dog.

that is what we where told about akita when we got our boy, but he is off lead etc he is now 4 and we have only had one incident and he got attacked and he was trying to back off terriffied , he does agility with me not for competion just when he comes to the paddock with me, i know of a man in the northeast does agility with his akita and competes with it, so i know it can be done,with patience.

i have a spitz that for two years has battled with me over everything i love the little so and so dearly stubborn as hell, for me, but not for OH but we turned a corner about two months ago and things have started to slot into place, now we are doing agility instead of going up yours and doing her own thing, i was patient and at times went into a corner to cry and bang my head off a brick wall, but when people who you train with that moved out your class and you where still in the same class as we where going nowhere or that is what it felt like we perservead and now those people are saying WOW, she has come on i am so proud of what we have both achieved. 

Had the conversation over breakfast this morning with OH, and he said it cannot be any worse than you have been through already, we are going to look for a puppy not an older dog so will grow up with the pack , we know how to lay down boundaries and rules, and we both enjoy breed showing so even if i can't do agility with a shiba we can always do breed shows, i know cannot gaurantee if it will be suitable for a show dog but we are willing to live with the dog whatever.

so now we are going to go to shows on the look for what we like and hopefully in 2014 we will of found something we like we are saying 2014 but you never know thankyou everyone for your input

Ooooo, I'm jealous!! I must be invited for snuggles!!  I keep saying that I would like one as my 'small dog' but I can't escape the cockers!  But I will have one one day.  I love the 2014.....as if!
What colour is your preference?

Black and Tan  my prefered colour and that would be a bonus
but we really just want the right type of dog to fit in with
the pack of nutters we already have living with us, so outgoing,
naughty, would be good

"all the males did obedience to a very high standard.  They would never return to me off-lead.."

To me, that is a total contradiction in terms.

Not really, there used to be a poster who signed herself with 'I have obedience dogs not obedient dogs'

There are dogs that will work exercises in a ring situation yet not be good at a distance, as most dogs have a circle of influence, the further from they handler they are (which many independent/hunting breeds will want to be) the more it lessens.

I have a bitch who hasn't been allowed off lead (except in fully fenced paddocks)since she was 7, she used to bog off occasionally, but got much worse after spaying when she became much more food obsessed, and knew how to bin raid.

She passed her 'Bronze good citizen' with no preparation, at a show, as she had no reason not to recall across a ring or do the basic manners exercises she had been taught.  She would and does  also recall reliably in a full enclosed area like tennis courts, or a paddock.

My breed in the USA often do Obedience and Agility and the top dog all breeds when Agility  first started was one of them, but most handlers would not trust their dogs to be reliable free running.

"Not really, there used to be a poster who signed herself with 'I have obedience dogs not obedient dogs'"

Whether you have 'obedient' dogs or dogs who do obedience, both sets should be able to be recalled off the lead. After all, even at the starter level of Obedience there is still a recall (and heelwork off lead). In the same vein, if someone says they have obedient dogs I don't think it's expecting too much that the dogs would come back when called. Otherwise they are 'not' obedient are they and certainly could not be said, as a previous poster claimed, to do obedience to a very high level if they don't recall? Most of the phone calls I get are from pet people who cannot get their dogs back when they are off the lead. 

Marisa it is not always a black and white as you might think, sometimes there is a distance at which dogs will work reliably, also you have to take into account dogs with a very strong scenting or hunting instincts, their natural instincts sometimes take over and they can develop cloth ears if there are strong scents or game in an area.

That was my point, my dogs are pretty obedient at close quarters, at home, no problem calling them in from the garden, getting them to wait, before jumping out of the car etc etc.

"Marisa it is not always a black and white as you might think".

Sorry but if you were to ask people if a dog who did not come back when off the lead was 'trained to a very high level in obedience' I would be very surprised if anyone said yes and that is what was being debated. We know there are certain breeds who have unreliable/non-existent recalls but that is not what was being discussed.  I personally wouldn't want to own a breed who couldn't be trained/trusted to run free off the lead (and not just in a paddock - not much use when you are not in that paddock is it), I like my dogs to have a good gallop fetching their toys and running their hearts out. They would be very frustrated otherwise.

I would also be very worried about the implications of the lack of recall - eg if a door/gate were to be left open or the dog managed to slip out, their lead got dropped in the street etc. I know people who have dogs like this will say they are very careful but accidents can and do happen, with the best will in the world. It would also bother me that my dog thought the outside world/other distractions were far more interesting than me but then as a trainer the relationship is all important to me. I want my dogs to think I'm the best thing since sliced bread (not saying I am!), not only from a competitive point of view but also domestically. Having nine dogs who can be trusted to free run anywhere - using their toys so they feel they have had a day at the office - means I don't spend hours pounding the streets which would bore mine rigid and not address their need to chase/herd.   

just as well we are all different, as the independent (mainly primitive and hunting breeds) would be consigned to history.

Again I re-iterate my dogs would be reliable in the open door, dropped lead etc situation, as they are then close within the sphere of influence.

I assume you own breeds that were bred for tasks where direct instruction and contact between dog and handler are required, and one that thrives on constant repetition/input, more easily provided by the human (can't pull large game out of my pocket) often termed 'Velcro breeds', then there are the companion breeds that have been infatalised to the extent to be over dependent.

These are just a subsection of the breeds though.

For example in my breed a dog that continually comes in to check with the handler on a hunt, is not considered a good hunting dog, as this is wasteful of energy as they are required to work away, sometimes miles, they are required to think for themselves, it is our modern world and traffic that makes this less compatible with free running safely, out of season or domestically.

These dogs do not 'run away', but they will do what they were and still are primarily bred to do and that is hunt. 

Fortunately they are also a very sensible breed and will periodically come back to check on where you are (after all your supposed to be following them, and will bark any time they ahve stopped prey), and if they loose you they will go back to last point of contact. 

Those that are well trained and form a close working bond with their handler in most domestic and ordinary situations will be obedient, but you can't take the hunting instinct out of the hunter, and the opportunity to follow this will always be too tempting occasionally, and in our urbanised world lead them into danger/trouble, so we need to protect them, be it on lead walking or finding suitably large open spaces away from roads and livestock (increasingly difficult), or enclosed areas.

Still have happy dogs, who aren't climbing the walls.  To be fair I have only had one that has undermined my confidence in a reliable recall to the extent where I won't take chances ever since, (90% wasn't good enough) never occurred to me prior to that, that one would wilfully thumb their nose at me to that extent, where I would have to wait until she was good and ready to return, with not an ounce of remorse (yes I know it's a human emotion and not really applicable).

This individual, now 13 did come back to me as an out of hand adolescent, but I can't blame that entirely.

Similar story with Sighthounds, many are very obedient, until they spot something on the move, and before you can get a command out the instinct takes over.  They can be off lead with a great deal of care of suitable place and constant attention by the owner to surroundings and possible tempting stimulus.

I and many others prefer more self reliant breeds, (can't do needy), I don't want to be 'their world', but part of it.

I know this is going to be a contentious issue, and I apologise in advance.... but I can't help thinking that breeds who are that independent, and can't be let off lead have no business being in pet households. Especially in the modern day when there are so many issues affecting dog owners - it seems that dogs sometimes can't settle their own (non-bloody, but noisy) arguments without someone crying "dangerous dog". :(

What does a pet dog owner want from their canine companion?

On one hand we are being urged to walk our dogs and let them 'be dogs' - i.e. some good off-lead running, and in some instances suggesting they should have some kind of a canine social life with others of their own species. I have a suspicion that the two are mutually exclusive, especially in some breeds.

On the other hand, dog-to-dog aggression is rising, as are instances of out of control dogs with no recall. It certainly wasn't like this 30 years ago where I used to live at the time, and had dogs. But there are many more dogs around now than back then - dog ownership seems to have mushroomed, and in preference for certain breeds. Some are obedient and trainable - some aren't.  I would always go for the trainable - simply because I like training, and get a great deal of pride out of owning a well-behaved dog that can go anywhere. Can't say I've nailed it 100% with mine, but we're not far off :)  And part of that is choice of breed.

Well I certainly consider my breed a pretty easy pet, (sociable, tolerant, adaptable) individually they are even pretty good off lead, but they are independent, not an issue if the recall is a bit slow in most situations (but it is if people expect instant compliance).

I have posted that in the past I had no issues walking five of my breed off lead, often along with a friends 4 dobes, they returned when called albeit with a bit of a wait a minute attitude on occasions.  The main problem is unrealistic expectations, and a more uptight and intolerant attitude to all dogs due to the serious problems caused by a few.

I am sure there are few dogs/breeds in our society that are 100% reliable off lead, just most owners think they are never going to run across a road after a cat etc.

I have certainly met many dogs who are far less reliable off lead than mine, even our Jozi , but they are still allowed off lead, often in places I would consider totally unsafe (grass verges, car parks etc), I suppose I just am more aware, and having more than a couple of dogs realise, we do not always have the level of control some might expect.  After all even the most obedient dogs weren't born trained, and you can't proof your training unless you take the chance of them failing to obey.

There will come a time when all dogs will be required to be kept on lead in public places, it is like that already in many countries where dogs are only allowed off lead in contained areas or private property.  This certainly appeared to be the case in Germany, which I suspect is why the Flexi lead was designed and is most commonly used to exercise dogs there.

Maybe it would be no bad thing and the anti dog feeling would lessen????  Owners of dogs who need a lot of space to let off steam would need to find fully enclosed areas for dog exercise.  In other words dog Parks that are either provided for by the Local authority from money from a dog licence fee, or private pay to use facilities provided privately, perhaps an opportunity for our farmers to gain an income.  Fully fence some ground, provide a turnstile and pay point (like I have seen for free range eggs).

My dog get to play with each other (and visits with friends dogs) at home, controlled socialisation with other dogs at training classes and shows and are quite happy with controlled, on lead exercise (returning home content and happy to chill). 

I could walk them in relays, but then they would each get a lot less total off base exercise than they do now.  I actually prefer pavement pounding to traipsing through muddy fields.  Clean pavements where I can vary the length and direction of walks, admire peoples front gardens, nice houses, find roads with nice views of the countryside, maybe it's my poor eyesight as I can get quite worried in a large open space where I can't see the boundary or exits, or what's coming until too late, no clear paths etc.  I have often got lost using public footpaths and bridleways in the country.

Using the old railway line (now a cycle and footpath) feel like I am out in the country, but bliss no traffic to come whizzing past as it does when I stay on Exmoor, no pavements and narrow country lanes where they are allowed to do 60mph.  Of course the fields are private property full of livestock, and even using permitted bridleways and paths you have to be very aware of stock, and certainly should never let dogs off lead, even well trained dogs doing their own thing trundling a few yards ahead of the owner on a blind corner have been shot, illegal, but won't bring the dog back, and can't blame the farmer being trigger happy when they are always getting stock worried.

> Some are obedient and trainable - some aren't.  I would always go for the trainable - simply because I like training, and get a great deal of pride out of owning a well-behaved dog that can go anywhere.

Ah but those breeds need training, without it they can be quite the opposite.

I can't say I enjoy training at all, I do it in order to have the well mannered dog that can be taken most anywhere (after all there are few places where I want to take them that they need to be off lead/out of direct control).

Sadly there are so few places where dogs are actually welcome, but my minimally trained dogs can all settle nicely by my feet in the few pub gardens that allow it, behave in hotel rooms, walk nicely through crowds, don't bark madly in the car if someone comes close, allow me to have quite lengthy conversations (I sometimes resort to late night walks so that we can actually keep walking without being stopped to talk about the dogs) etc.

Maybe I'm selling my lot short, and they are (by some standards) well trained (nah!).

Funnily enough I was stopped yesterday returning from our (lead) walks and a lady stopped her car asking me how I got them to be so well behaved (6 medium size dogs).  Now they were all on lead and halters (including the almost 5 month old), walking along in a relaxed manner, having a sniff etc, and happily settled while we chatted.  No real feat I would have thought?

So one persons expectations of training, and what is a well trained/behaved dog is not another.  This person has five large toy breed dogs that she cannot walk on lead.  All she needs and wants is to be able to do this simple thing.

> What does a pet dog owner want from their canine companion?

Often little more than what they'd want from the cat (who after all is not trained), companionship acceptance, and company on walks (the cat generally won't oblige).

> What does a pet dog owner want from their canine companion?

I could see this changing as my circumstances change.  I currently live in a cul-de-sac village (no through route or you'd be in the sea!) and all my walks are fields and footpaths, or the sea wall.  My lifestyle, our location, and my level of fitness all mean that I want a reliable off lead dog.  My gundog breed ideally fits the bill and for every mile I do they cover at least two.

At some point in the future I can see that I might not want to live this far out and may consider moving to the city.  IF I were still reasonably fit and lived in my location of choice, nr open green town parks, then I could have a Basset Fauve de Bretagne (my 'one day' dog) which is a breed not given to snappy recall.  I can easily envisage this wiry fellow and me being glued at the hip and doing everything together and in those circumstances I could reconcile myself to allowing him much more limited free running :)

I enjoy training too but different breeds have different strengths and weaknesses and the key is to work with them, and be realistic about what can be achieved.  Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though does it           ...although I may have to rent a well fenced field!!

> They would never return to me off-lead but they would stay on command(even if running) and wait till I clipped the leash on if I saw another dog approaching.

I take it this common in the 'independent' breeds?
I can't get a reliable re-call from Buster, but he'll stop still - completley fixed to the spot like a statue - on command, extremely reliably (up to now with a 100% success, but I won't rely on 100% just to be on the safe side). The only problem I have with that, is getting him to move again, LOL

I must add that he is always on a long-line, never loose.

I hope this isn't considered off topic, but the thread is about off-leadness & breed traits.

> I enjoy training too but different breeds have different strengths and weaknesses and the key is to work with them, and be realistic about what can be achieved

Very good point.

I would do my own research regarding any breed in which you are told they can't be let off lead. Google anything about ex-racing greyhounds and each rescue page that comes up will say never EVER let your greyhound off lead. I think this is them just want to be extra safe, so scaremongering a little (for good reasons), but it is simply not true. No doubt there are plenty of dogs of this breed and any breed that should remain on lead, and all dogs regardless of breed should be kept on lead until a decent recall has been trained. I have a number of greyhounds, with more in my past, all of whom have been excellent off lead - because they have been trained to be so, and because we have a bond and they WANT to come back to me (and because of treats!!).

> I enjoy training too but different breeds have different strengths and weaknesses and the key is to work with them, and be realistic about what can be >achieved

I knew a huskie trained to a very high standard in obedience and agility - but was not reliable offlead in open countryside.

Not replying to anyone in particular but I find this thread interesting. I expect my dogs to be obedient, have good recall, be able to run free off lead, accompany me to restaurants (yes there are places you can take your dogs to), about town, to other people's homes, on public transport, other public buildings, and be friendly and well mannered. If my dogs couldn't live out their role as a companion in this way, I'd think twice about owning a dog. They aren't my ornaments about the house.
Sure some people would prefer to live in a concrete world and not see any living thing other than  humans and butterflies, but the fact is we are on planet earth and share it with many species. Hopefully we will see a move promoting more responsible dog ownership rather than more segretation. They are not the same thing.

My hounds do all of the above, the only difference I suspect is that you may be able to let yours off in a park full of people, dogs, squirrels etc and I would not take that risk, and prefer to go to quieter places. I am lucky to have an abundance of them where I live and my dogs run off lead daily. I dislike the thought of risk because I do think no matter how well you train a sighthound, the distant sight of a hare may occur and you could be stuck then. So you have to be adaptable, and if being adaptable means going to beaches more than public parks...well, it suits me :D

> I expect my dogs to be obedient, have good recall, be able to run free off lead, accompany me to restaurants (yes there are places you can take your dogs to), about town, to other people's homes, on public transport, other public buildings, and be friendly and well mannered. If my dogs couldn't live out their role as a companion in this way, I'd think twice about owning a dog. They aren't my ornaments about the house.

I'm not sure what your point is. The only thing that would need amending in your above list, for a dog that is not reliable off-lead, would be that they can only go off-lead 'in a secure area'.

I guess I was making a comment on what I expect from my pets as companion dogs if that's ok? I can be more pointed and say I wouldn't choose a breed thàt I expected couldn't be let off lead because free running is an important part of my dog's quality of life. I don't have private land to give that so a dog that can to trained to live acceptably in public spaces is a must.

That's fair enough Shiv, and I'm sure everyone here can think of a breed they wouldn't have for a given reason. I wouldn't NOT have a sighthound, they're worth adapting for. (and this doesn't apply to all sh's either)

I guess that different characters make a success of different breeds too. Its so interesting how we all adapt in different ways to the specific needs of different breeds, just imagine the ways our dogs adapt to us too lol

I would think so, Mastifflover.  Any breeders I know that have the luxury of having enclosed off-lead areas say the same.  Their dogs do not return but will stay to get the lead clipped on.  Apparently, if you kick in the 'stay with the pack' instinct before 18 weeks, this helps with the breed's recall issues.  By that I mean, actively hide/run away from the puppy so he needs to watch out to stay with the pack.  We have always did this and I must say, I have never had any issues with recall.

Totally agree with Shivj and Miss Temeraire. Even if I weren't a trainer, I can't envisage owning a breed who couldn't be let off the lead.

> I can't envisage owning a breed who couldn't be let off the lead.

It is often not so much about couldn't but shouldn't.

I don't think there is any breed you can let off in all circumstances though, and it is becoming more and more difficult to do so safely, people do take a lot of chances, and I think as time goes on you become more cautious, especially if the one occasion your dog does not respond causes an issue.

I let mine off for years, 15 probably, but rarely in the last five years, since having one that would wilfully disobey commands on occasion.

I once tried to demonstrate how naughty she could be (to someone considerign the breed) and let her off in the country park.  Waited for her to be engrossed and a fair distance away, called, and blow me down she did a meaga fast recall, and present.  I sent her to heel, whcih she did nicely, and then proceeeded to do lead free heelwork.  I think she felt it opportune to show me up. :)

This person had owned Dachsunds, and told me mine were far more obedient, and that she wouls sometimes go home and return somr houts later to collect her errant dogs.

One of my breeding is not only an Australian show champion, but a trackign chyampion and qualified Search and Rescue dog.  The latter training was undertaken once she was a veteran, and teh last discipline she is qualified but not working as she is 14 next month.  When working she is totally focussed and can ignore livestock, wildlife etc.

I have a beagle which plenty of people say can't be let off lead, I even know one beagle owner who was turned away from dog club as beagles are "untrainable"
I can and do let her off lead much of the time.  Her recall is not instant but nor does she run off.  She will run to greet other dogs, she does pick up scent trails and hunt, she also scavenges food (and in that instance generally only comes back when it is gone)  It is not a question of not being able to let her off lead I let her off lead where it is safe and appropriate.  In a large enclosed park (Heaton Park for those who know Manchester) I can let her off lead, I may not see her for a minute or so but on a day when the park is well populated with picnicers and the like I don't let her off as she will tittle off nicking butties.  So I can let her off lead but I do it when and where is appropriate. 
There may well be people here whose dogs have instant recalls away from picnicers and whatever other temptations.  Those people would not let their dog off lead by a roadside though as it is not safe or appropriate.  Surely we all assess each situation as to whether it is appropriate to let our dogs off lead at that time. 
I will admit having had a couple of collies and a velcro lab in the past I have had to work on being laid back enough to trust my beagle off lead I have also worked very hard on recall - 12 months on a long line - I don't think you can ever generalise that such and such a breed can "never" be let off lead it is about finding situations where it is appropriate for your dog.  And as a side point when my collie got old and deaf he was a liability off lead as he could not trace a direction on sounds and would "hear" me and bolt off into the distance looking for me.  Towards the end I very rarely let him off lead anywhere as he was not safe anywhere.

Brianless has it spot on, thankfully we don't all want the same thing from our dogs or certain breeds would die out. Marisa you sound exactly like I did 25 years ago before I got my first borzoi. I had been brought up doing obedience with collies and shepherds and was convinced that my borzoi would be just as obedient :D Well he was, right up till a year old then he developed a more 'relaxed' approach to obedience. He would do heelwork, stays, recall and retrieve in a hall or ring but out walking his hunting instincts often intruded. A bunny running across the path and there was no way he was going to either drop down or come - he was off. Since then I've had lots of borzois, they've all been the same although I didn't bother training the others as much. They were all well behaved in that they didn't pull on their leads and would stay reasonably close to me on a walk off lead, but if they seen something to chase before I did then I would just have to wait till they came back. That's sighthounds for you. I also have collies, and always will have, and the same behaviour in them would be unacceptable - they can be recalled from bunnies etc of course.

You pay the price for velcro dogs in the house though, a borzoi will go off to the comfiest bed and not move for 10/12 hours, a collie will follow you round the house, nudging your hand to be petted, bringing you toys to throw.

The silken windhounds that I have now are a combination between my 2 other breeds. It's thought that they have some sheltie blood in their past (due to the presence of the MDR1 gene which isn't in any other sighthounds) and they are certainly more trainable than any other sighthound I know, but they're still laid back couch potatoes in the house.

> This person had owned Dachsunds, and told me mine were far more obedient, and that she wouls sometimes go home and return somr houts later to collect her errant dogs.
>

Gosh I couldn't do that, for me that's why I prefer sighthounds to scenthounds - it's easier to keep an eye out for something they may want to chase and get them back before they see it, impossible to do the same for a desirable scent ;)

> One of my breeding is not only an Australian show champion, but a tracking champion and qualified Search and Rescue dog.

That's brilliant, something to be proud of :)

> Her recall is not instant but nor does she run off. She will run to greet other dogs

This is where some breed understanding amongst all dog owners would be a great thing. I understand if a hound comes running up to say hello, I know it's not going to have an instant recall, same with young dogs of any breed. I do get cross with owners of older dogs of an easily trained breed that just haven't bothered to try but that's a different rant.

Too true - also pack hounds generally tend to be hyper social and get on well with other dogs.  I know you can't generalise about these things but I have never seen a dog as quick and good at knowing how to greet another dog and even which dogs not to greet as my Lola. 

>> Her recall is not instant but nor does she run off. She will run to greet other dogs
> This is where some breed understanding amongst all dog owners would be a great thing. I understand if a hound comes running up to say hello, I know it's not going to have an instant recall, same with young dogs of any breed.

And this is where my difficulties have arisen over the last five years, so I have largely given in and opting for a less stressful life by keeping to mostly lead walks.  There is less and less tolerance and understanding.

Fortunately I have an energetic breed, but one with an off switch.  A good hours brisk walk (even on occasion just half an hour if it's raining, as they hate rain), and they will happily chill at home.

As someone said, having already owned one, I just couldn't live with some of the breeds that are readily trained, but also demanding of same.  I find my less reliable off lead dogs, fare easier to live with than my high drive herding dog ever was.  The off lead issue is small price to pay for what for me is the perfect breed to live with.

"I had been brought up doing obedience with collies and shepherds and was convinced that my borzoi would be just as obedient" - I wouldn't assume that at all, especially with a hound breed.

"The off lead issue is small price to pay for what for me is the perfect breed to live with." - unfortunately I feel it is often the dog who pays the price, by not being able to free run. There are undoubtedly some breeds who would be happy purely walking on a lead, never to be allowed free, but one of the huge pleasures of owning my dogs is seeing them galloping along, running flat out after their toys and then returning just as fast to have them thrown again. I guess we're all different. I'm away for a couple of days so not ignoring posts, just off-line. Have a good weekend folks. xx

Thank goodness we are all different, just like our chosen breeds & the individual characters within.

Love scent hounds. They are not always easy, have to think about where I can let them off, prefer to know where they are, not let them out of sight for too long & mentally stay with them. This is something I accept & enjoy whilst for other people it wouldn't be acceptable. Fortunately living where we do there is plenty of open countryside to allow good periods off lead daily, recall is not the greatest & there are times it's makes my heart sing if they just look my way. Perhaps I just don't like things too easy. Saddened by the amount of scent hound owners I meet who don't allow their dogs off lead, it is possible with training, knowing your dog & it's characteristics. As for people saying they are untrainable - tosh - Lucas has bronze, going for silver soon & our trainer (who isn't a fan of the breed) is pushing us to go for gold, fingers & paws crossed.

Do agree with Brainless that there is less & less tolerance, understanding & I'll also add basic good manners & training.

Living where I do I rarely let mine off as there is so many dogs offlead with very questionable temperaments. I was chuffed when I moved right by cannock chase and also chase water but it is ruined by many bad mannered dogs and owners :-(

Just a few days ago I saw 2 Shibas off lead in Epping Forest.  They appeared totally obedient to the people walking them.  I was suprised though, having had them in kennels & shown them in the usa.  You couldn't leave them alone for 10 seconds without them trying to get out of the crate, the kennel or the kennel run.

But then I raise eyebrows when I see beagles, bassetts, PBGV, GBGV & my own breed Welsh Terriers off lead. 

Flexi leads bring me a great deal of comfort knowing I am in total control of my dog it can't run off, bother other dogs & is easily taken out of aggresive situations.  The number of times my dog has been attacked my 'friendly' dogs off lead is stupid, to the point when he dies I don't think I will get another dog.