You may recall that I posted a couple of weeks back about sending my terrier to a groomer - I had failed to accustom her to being groomed as a pup so she can be difficult to handle, but also her coat is the sort that really needs stripping.  So I was weighing up the pros and cons of taking her to a professional.

I've got an appointment for an "assessment" of her coat for stripping next week, but in the meantime Nellie was getting scruffier and scruffier - she had dreadlocks under her tail and haunches, and I noticed that her undercoat was looking awfully matted.  Not to mention the dog looked permanently like she'd been dragged through a bush backwards. :)

So I gathered up my shampoo, comb and scissors, and tackled her myself!  I shampooed her right down to the skin, then carefully combed out every ratty dreadlock from undercoat to tip (*yawn*).  Then I trimmed off the scruffy sprouty bits from in and around her ears, and used thinning scissors on her neck, skirts and cheeks.  I left her other face furnishings (eyebrows, moustache and beard) well alone, didn't even trim them.

I got exactly what I wanted - a clean, sleek, smart looking working terrier, without making her look "chopped" or scissored anywhere!  Hurrah!

Okay so I still want the professional to consider whether or not her coat is strippable - just to get her even sleeker, she's a bit fuzzy round the back end still - but I'm so chuffed that I was able to get the look I wanted all by myself.  I guess its do-able after all!

Well done you Susie.  Just a few tips to help and you've got a smart and tidy dog who's still has her natural weatherproof coat and hasn't been clipped to within an inch of her life! :)

And if a pet owner with no training can do it, then why can't groomers?? :(

Susie hi, sounds like you've done really well on your dogs coat! 

I'm about to embark on a training course to learn how to groom and have also volunteered one day a week at a local grooming parlour. 
Have to say that most dogs that came in had coats in pretty good condition, but they all got the buzz cut! lol  Poor things must be frozen!

when u do grooming tho it is what the owner wants at the end of the day, well done on grooming ur dog ur selfs if more owners like u put effort into it us groomers wouldnt have to get the clippers out all the time

Really Tracey - they ALL got the buzz cut?  Blimey!  Is that the parlour's default option do you think?!!

Thanks Mollaholland - it was only after a dodgy experience with a groomer who came straight in and cut off nellie's eyebrows (they've never grown back properly), that I decided to do much of the trimming myself!  I even bought a big book on it, lol.  I will, however, get a professional to strip her properly, while her coat is still strippable at least.

when u do grooming tho it is what the owner wants at the end of the day

Interesting.  The very first thing that I was taught at grooming school is how to educate owners what is best for both them and their dog and why.

Susie72 has learned in just a couple of emails! :)

That's as maybe mollaholland, and I'm sure we're all for giving owners what they want.  But even to my untrained eye, I don't feel that the dogs needed to have their coats cut so short as they did.  Only one dog came in with its coat in bad condition.
As I said, I'm no expert and only just starting to learn....

I'm at college doing a G&G grooming course at the moment and have to say I feel the same way. I know we have to go with what the customer wants to some extent but I do feel overall the "styling" is severe to say the least. The number of spaniels that are coming in and being literally shaved from head to tail is incredible. They no longer look like spaniels, no feathering, even the ears get the same treatment!

Anyone can be taught to use clippers.  They're quick, safe and easy.  The more hair they remove, the quicker the dog dries and the sooner they can put the next dog on the bench!

Thorough grooming takes time and good scissoring takes skill and practice.  Some students take a long time to perfect their scissoring technique.  A few will never perfect it and their dogs always look as though they've used a knife and fork from the kitchen drawer! :(

Very few dogs need clippers, but unfortunately most owners don't realise that they have any other option because all the local dogs that they see in their area ALL look like shaved sheep! :(

Great news - why not save the money and do the stripping yourself too, once shown how to go about it!

I agree - our college did all Cavaliers in a 'cocker clip', and sometimes took the ear and leg feathering off to - awful! I trim round and under feet and shorten all feathering - pet Cavaliers don't need to be standing on their chest hair like my Henry does - but the colleges don't seem to realise there are medium roads between super long coats and clipping with a 10 blade!!

Have to admit my scissoring's not brilliant, but I never get the chance to practise with all my bichon clients wanting them clipped with the 5/8 blade! I do tidy round with scissors after I've clipped but you don't get the chance to practise the shape. Ah well!

our college did all Cavaliers in a 'cocker clip'

I always recommend training at grooming schools as I've yet to meet a college student who does anything else than clip everything off. :(  We would always teach basic scissoring before a new student was allowed to touch the clippers! :) 

Lucy, don't you think that clipped Bichons look dreadful?  They have tiny heads and long skinny bodies that look awful if they have their coats removed! :(  Next time you have a Bichon in, give yourself an extra half an hour on the appointment.  Practise your scissoring, leaving it just a tad longer than your 5/8 would do!  Then without drawing attention to the length, give the owner a demo on how to groom with a comb and make sure you make the next appointment before they leave.

A pet Bichon doesn't need to leave the parlour with a 2" coat, but if you can get it to 1" long over a period of time, you can give it the square shape that the Bichon should be instead of looking like a white sausage with 4 matchstick legs that we all see walking the streets! :(

I'm rather stunned that the majority of groomers would gladly dive straight in with the clippers (maybe you could educate them diplomatically Tracey!!) - surely it depends on the type of coat, and the "look" the owner wishes to achieve?  For example, my dog is a semi-working dog, so I really wanted her to stay natural (she needs her waterproof coat), and not look chopped and pampered and over-scissored.  The groomer who cut off Nellie's lovely Dennis Healey eyebrows (*sniffle*) showed me a picture of her own dog (a shi-tzu) - its trimmed face furnishings looked bizarrely symmetrical...

In fairness, I guess this is largely about ignorance on the part of the owner, which some commercially motivated groomers are taking advantage of.  When Nellie grew up to be a rough-coated patterdale, not the smooth-coated patterdale we expected :), I 100% expected to be able to take her to a professional groomer, ask for a nice tidy up trim and a good groom, and have the groomer tackle her particular type of coat and furnishings appropriately.  I would expect to be educated on what she needed by the professional.  I am SOOO glad that I read up a bit on grooming first, and also that I had the bad experience with that scissor-happy woman BEFORE she accustomed Nellie to clippers (as she intended to do) - it sounds as though I would have ended up with a clipped dog, and Nellie's terrier coat would have been ruined forever.  Not only that, but I would have been beholden to a groomer to clip her forever more wouldn't I?  Once clipped, forever clipped, unless you want a woolly dog!

I will withold judgement on the groomer I am seeing next week, because in fairness she has been totally professional by email so far - I want her to assess Nellie's coat for stripping, so we'll see if she suggests clipping it instead!  I doubt it, as she advertises herself as being one of the few groomers left who will handstrip.

Where are you Tracey, shall we set up a new parlour called "No Blades", and vow to use only shampoo and scissors and have West Coast as our tutor!!!!

Oops cross-posted Lucy and WestCoast, sorry - yes, I might well have a go at the handstripping if I can be taught!

I'm rather proud of my scissoring - I learnt my techniques around horses, another animal which should NEVER look scissored!!!

Put it this way Susie,

Have a go at stripping.  No matter how badly you do it, it still won't be as bad as a clipped Patterdale ;) and don't forget, the coat will ALWAYS grow back :-) so any mistakes will soon grow out and you'll get another opportunity to get it right :-D  Then you'll be proud of your beautiful weather-proof dog :-D

With stripping you can strip lightly and then stop, wait a day or two (or more) and then do some more, that way you have a chance to look at what you're doing and decide how much more needs to come off and where - this is a luxury that you don't get when a dog goes to the groomer, you'll soon learn how to get the look you want :-D

Then you'll have other people asking who does your dog and before you know it, you'll be stripping out another ;)

Just found this, hope it helps - one tip tho, get yourself some rubber fingers or  Finger Cots      they will help you grip the hairs and make stripping really easy ;)

http://clubs.akc.org/btcoa/research/groomguide.html

I know it isn't a Patterdale, but it will give you a good idea of how to get the look you want ;)
Hope this helps

Thats an excellent link, Dill, thank you!  A border terrier coat is as close to Nellie's type of coat as any.  I've looked at stripping before, but was confused about it.....this is the best article I've seen on the method itself.

I have tried a bit of stripping with my fingers when she's been dozing on my lap minding her own business, just working across her rather fluffy haunches, but she got a bit annoyed with me and kept going to mouth my hand......

I might try a stripping knife and start very gradually.  thanks again!

Just have a small pile of tiny treats handy - smelly cheese or similar - anything she really likes ;) nothing bigger than your little fingernail ;) and give her one of them just before she tries to mouth your hand ;)  remember as well that 5 mins four times a day is 20 mins grooming - that's quite a lot to start off with - but gives her more opportunities to get used to it without getting fed up ;) 

For really yummy treats I buy a Mattessons garlic sausage and cut it up into tiny half pinky-fingernail - sized treats, then freeze in bags - they last for aaaages and defrost almost immediately.  My bedlington pup loves them.  I mix those, cheese treats of the same size and puppy biccies and she never knows which she'll get next   :-D :-D  I never give many - it isn't food and I want her to really want more :-D :-D

They do look a little odd I admit, but the owners just don't want the coats longer. I've tried to explain and demonstrate correct brushing, but they still come in covered in knots and bobbles the next time round, it's just hopeless! The worst time was the one who came a month later than he should have, and after half an hour doing one side of one back leg I had to give up and agree with the owner who said when she dropped him off that it would have to be clipped off short. :-(

I do have Borders I handstrip, one of which travels a fair distance (considering we're in London) as she can't find anyone else who will strip a coat instead of clipping. :-)

The worst time was the one who came a month later than he should have

Charge him 50% more!  That's the insentive to bring the dog back on time or at least well groomed!  I didn't mind them coming in late if they had kept the grooming up! :)   And show them how to use a wide toothed comb to find the knots. :) It's easy to get the body knot free even if you take the legs a little shorter.

It's not fair on your clients who do bring their dogs in regularly if those who bring knotty dogs late pay the same price. :)

If you keep clipping it for the same price - he'll keep bringing his dog in late and knotty!  As I've said before, what you do is what you get more of. :)

>I've tried to explain and demonstrate correct brushing, but they still come in covered in knots and bobbles the next time round, it's just hopeless!

I think there are people in this world that just have no interest in maintaining their dogs themselves at all.  When I used to work for a dog groomer we would get a Soft Coated WT in about every 2 weeks, usually the house keeper brought her in but on this occasion the owner came down. Just in general conversation I asked her how often she brushed her dog (coat always a mess).  Well, she looked totally incensed at me, went red in the face and said, 'brush her, BRUSH HER??  I don't brush her! 

She was the extreme but there were plenty of people who thought it was only the groomers job to brush their dogs regardles of weather they came in every week, every month or just once a year.  Sometimes it was just a kindness to the dog to use the clippers :(

Sometimes it was just a kindness to the dog to use the clippers

I'm afraid I think differently, but then that's the way I was trained. :)  I think that you are just perpetualing the dog's misery.  I believe that owners will get away with whatever they are allowed to get away with.   If an owner doesn't want to groom, then the dog comes in every week.  In fact that's just great because the dog is well groomed and gets bathed and trimmed when needed. :)  I used to look after 9 Wheatens when I worked in kennels and they were only groomed every 2 weeks.  They were no problem to get through their coats with a dematting comb.  In fact they were the dogs that I learned to use a dematting comb on before I went to grooming school! :)

I told my clients that they either need time or money to accept their responsibilty as a dog owner and to keep their dog in good condition, I really did't mind which, but all the time the groomer just clips off the coat for the 'normal' charge, then the owners will expect them to sort out their problems!  Apart from making the groomers life difficult (or not if they just clip everything off!) my concern is for the dog who is walking around matted in the meantime. :(

>I believe that owners will get away with whatever they are allowed to get away with.

I think you have a point here, my first boss liked to suck up to all the well off owners and my second boss was quite timid and got walked all over.

>I used to look after 9 Wheatens when I worked in kennels and they were only groomed every 2 weeks.

The poor girl I used to look after was a very poor example of the breed, she had a coat so thin you could see the skin and it was also very fine and brittle and easily damaged.  Her coat would have improved with gentle care every other day or so :)

The owner was very stuck up and refused to ever speak to me again.  One day she came to pick the dog up and asked my boss in front of me if 'Winnie' had any fleas. I answered her as it was my job to bath and dry all the dogs but she just looked at my boss waiting for the answer.  After an uncomfortable silence my boss looked at me and asked me the question, I gave my reply which was related back to the owner. I had to bite my lip so hard to stop myself from smirking as we were all stood together :) 

Honestly...some people eh!  It just goes to show, money doesn't make you a nicer person. :)

Which reminds me, my husband works for a multi-billionaire family (not famous), and they have 6 dogs - two shi-tzus, two rough blue merle collies, and two standard poodles.  All six dogs make regular trips to the groomer (maybe every 6-8 weeks), but they are CERTAINLY never brushed in between.  Not even the collies.  On one memorable occasion, one of the collies came back shaved right down to the skin......the groomer found MAGGOTS in his undercoat, it was so matted.

Isn't that just dreadful?  For a dog in a wealthy family?

I have to say that I have seen this myself (yuk) :(

We once had a very elderly Irish WS come in with quite a posh family.  The coat was beyond matted and had actually 'felted'.  Of course the poor thing had to be shaved which revealed huge pus filled abcesses with luckily only a couple of maggots.  It was so upsetting to see this poor dog, made me cry :(  I had to tell the owner to get it straight to the vet which they agreed to do but they showed no real concern.  How do you make people care?

I was once asked by a prospective owner who was about to collect a 12 month old male OES from a national rescue centre, if I would 'sort his coat out' before he took the dog home.  I said that I thought that the rescue centre would home the dog in good condition - how wrong I was!  He was collecting the dog on my day off and so I told him to bring it in on the way home.

The dog was walking with a strange gait as it came up the path.  His coat was felted and hanging like grapes all over his body and head.  Of course this had to be clipped off.  Underneath I found an anal abscess full of maggots, pus oozing out of his ears and bright red infected testicles the size of tennis balls.  After a phone call to the rescue centre, they agreed to pay for any veterinary treatment as well as my charges.  And they'd homed this 12 month old, untrained, strong dog with a young couple who both worked full time!  Needless to say he didn't stay there for long and was rehomed again due to destroying the house when they were at work - are we surprised??!!

How do you make people care?
By finding out what's important to them.  Sometimes money.  Sometimes the threat of publicity - as in the case of a vicar seriously neglecting his dog.  Sometimes by just explaining how simple it is to groom properly and that means they can be quick to spot any changes in their dog because they know every inch!  But NOT by just clipping it off everytime they bring it in matted. :(  One of my lines to seriously neglectful owners used to be, "Are you aware that the RSPCA consider it an offense to neglect your dog's coat?  I have taken photos of the before and after!" :)

It just wouldn't work to do that with my clients. I often have to phone to remind them it's time to have the dogs groomed after 2 months. There is no way on this earth they would bring them in every couple of weeks. And no, they aren't really interested in having their dogs looking correct for the breed, they bought the dogs for companionship and cuddles, not for having it admired as a great grooming job when they go out. I say again, I would love to just do handstripped terriers, untrimmed Cavaliers, and scissored Bichons, but I would have no clients if I refused to do the dogs how the owners said.

>I often have to phone to remind them it's time to have the dogs groomed after 2 months. There is no way on this earth they would bring them in every couple of weeks.

Why wait 2 months? Why not post reminders (text message?) once a month to start with?

>And no, they aren't really interested in having their dogs looking correct for the breed

I bet they would be if people complimented them on how lovely their dogs looked. ;-)

I don't want to be nagging them - if they decide to go elsewhere I lose money even every 2 months. And I would hate it if someone was phoning or texting me every month saying 'your dog needs grooming'. At the end of the day they are the ones who can see the dog - they don't all need grooming every month or even every 2 months, so I just have to do a gentle prod and leave it up to them.

Why wait 2 months? Why not post reminders (text message?) once a month to start with?
I make their next appointment before they leave. :)

they are the ones who can see the dog
But they don't realise how matted their dog is underneath and how uncomfortable it will be.  Have you ever given the matts from under a Cockers feet back to the owner?  When they come to collect I ask them into the parlour and ask them to take one shoe off.  I put a small pebble in their shoe and tell them to put it on again!  Are they uncomfortable?  Of course, and that's how their dog has been walking around.  It makes them think and realise...... :)

so I just have to do a gentle prod and leave it up to them.
That's why you have the clients that you have, and I have the clients that I have.  We all choose what sort of business we run and as long as you're happy with it, then that's all that matters.  :)

I have clients arriving every 8 weeks (and a waiting list for when an old dog dies) with well groomed dogs, 4 days a week for 50 weeks of the year.  That's the type of service that I provide.  I have no problem with my owners not grooming because if they don't groom, then I pass them on to the groomer up the road who is happy for them to turn up with knotty dogs whenever they want to. They can also fit them in at short notice because they don't have clients coming in on a regular basis. :)

I don't want sloppy, unreliable owners with tatty dogs!  I want owners who take care of their dogs and take a pride in their appearance, health and wellbeing.  Grooming isn't just about looking right.. Nail clipping and teeth descaling can save them big money at the Vet as well as save the dog a G A!  So there are dogs and groomers for everyone. :)

Absolutely Westcoast :-D

I made a decision when training that I would NEVER do another matted stinking dog ever again - I hate being the dog torturer and that's what it was.  I had one Shih Tzu whose coat came off in one piece head and all :(  It was awful :(

So these days I only do a couple of dogs - to keep in practise as I can't have the workshop full time or even weekly  ;) but the ones I do have their owners are SO proud of their dogs and keep up their coats in between, they are never knotted or tangled because they are combed regularly :-)

Lucy, can I ask, did you do your training at a general college that put on grooming classes? :)

> I made a decision when training that I would NEVER do another matted stinking dog ever again - I hate being the dog torturer and that's what it was.  I had one Shih Tzu whose coat came off in one piece head and all :-(  It was awful :-(

I find that a bit of an unusuall statement coming from a groomer !!

I became a dog groomer because of a few reasons and one of them is that I felt sorry for the poor dogs I seen walking about with matted ,stinking coats  and whatever else they had from being in such a state. I will gladly do these dogs and without being a dog torturer ! I get them looking and feeling good again .I also try !! to advise the owners about the benefits of regular gromming to prevent it happening again ( it does not allways work although )

It is great when owners do keep a good grooming routine and these dogs are easier to do but I get more pleasure and satisfaction out of doing a poorly groomed dog and sometimes when the owners see how good they look and how much healthier their dogs are , do try and keep up with the grooming, if  not I know I will get them back and at least I know that the poor stinky dogs get a good groom more often than it previously had been getting.

I know I will get them back and at least I know that the poor stinky dogs get a good groom more often than it previously had been getting.

You're right lilacbabe, you'll get those poor  stinky dogs back once or twice a year when their owners can't bear the smell any more of the poor dogs are covered in skin problems!  And that's exactly why the owners keep neglecting their dogs lilacbabe - because you keep getting them out of trouble!  Have you tried taking pictures and telling them that the RSPCA consider it an offence to neglect their dogs' coats?  That would REALLY help those poor neglected dogs rather than perpetuate their suffering.  You're not doing those poor dogs any favours at all! :(

As I've already said, there are groomers, owners and dogs to suit everyone! :(

I think that is a very kind attitude lilacbabe.  If groomers don't want that sort of work fair enough but I think there will always be people who, no matter how much you try to educate/lecture/cajole will just carry on as before and, although it is nobodies idea of ideal I am sure, at least if there is somewhere they can drop the dog off and it will get sorted it seems to me they are more likely to do that regularly and less likely to leave the dog suffering for great lengths of time.

LOL  :) :)

If you keep doing what you've always done, then you'll keep getting what you've always got! :) 

I think you are missing the point WestCoast.  Lilababe does not mind providing this service to animals that would otherwise suffer.  I am not sure the RSPCA would be interested in prosecuting this group of people who are at least willing to pay for a groomer and if they did what would become of the dogs taken away?

Isabel.  You are missing the point.  By continually providing a solution for neglectful owners, then a groomer is supporting their neglect.

I do not post about things that I know nothing about.   I have worked in a grooming training school and run my own parlour for 16 years.  The RSPCA ARE interested on matted dogs where it is a liability to their health.  It is the only area where I have found them to be useful.  Armed with before and after photographs, my local Officer twice visited owners who I had drawn his attention to because they refuse to take due care of their dogs.

I had 10 other groomers in close proximity and although we all had different ways of working, 9 of us agreed at one of our Christmas lunches that we wouldn't tolerate owners not grooming their dogs to the point where it was detrimental to the dogs health and our local RSPCA Officer worked with us all.  If an owner was "lucky" enough to find the 10th groomer, then they could take their dog to her for a twice a year matted clip off with impunity, although the RSPCA Officer would sometimes 'drop in to see her when he was passing!'

> If an owner was "lucky" enough to find the 10th groomer, then they could take their dog to her for a twice a year matted clip off with impunity, although the RSPCA Officer would sometimes 'drop in to see her when he was passing!'

So the RSPCA accepted that.

I remember as a child taking our bichon to the groomer for the first time, we had been brushing him with a soft baby brush on the top coat and didnt realise underneath he was thick with knots :(  The groomer loaned us a slicker brush and sent us home to get the knots out before she would touch him with a pair of scissors.  This is why I agree with westcoast, owners need to know that the way they are treating their dogs is unacceptable, with us it was pure ignorance - it may be that with other owners.  Maybe grooming them once then educating the owner and if they are not kept up together refusing to groom them again may push owners in the right direction. 

So the RSPCA accepted that.

No.  As I said if you read "the RSPCA Officer would sometimes 'drop in to see her when he was passing!' but he didn't have a crystal ball like some, and wouldn't know just when she would be clipping off these poor souls.

You mean he dropped in on the groomer! I thought you meant an owner.  I think I would have had them up for harassment.  What law were they suspected of transgressing?

Absolutely ClaireyS.  Educating owners takes time and there's not a 'one size fits all' approach.  That's why as I've already said, the groomer needs to find what is important to the owner.  These skills, as well as grooming skills, were taught at the training school that I started at and obviously not all trainers have that knowledge to pass on.

As I've also previously said, I was willing to clip a neglected dog off once on condition that the owner would bring it back in 8 weeks for me to begin to style it and continue their grooming demonstrations.  It's much easier to practice on a shorted coated dog with no knots abd once the routine is set with very basic grooming skills, then most breeds can be kept in good condition with a reasonable length of coat wih thorough grooming (as you discovered :) ) 2 or 3 times a week.  Unfortunately many groomers don't have the skills themselves to pass on to the owners.

Continually clipping off a matted dog is like supporting the owners' behaviour, just like covering up for an alchoholic or drug addict is supporting their choice of lifestyle. :(

Thats great news

I have recently taken my sparky to be cut for the first time ever as i dont plan on showing him anymore, and i was really nervous, as i thought they would do it too short and it would look scruffy and horrible, they actually surprised me and did a really good job, he looks fantastic and so bright eyed due to the fact you can actually see his face ha ha, but i agree with what you say, why can a pet owner groom a dog to how you want but a person whos job it is doesnt seem to do it the way you want..! So good on you for tackling that, i didnt have the patience lol :)

>Continually clipping off a matted dog is like supporting the owners' behaviour, just like covering up for an >alchoholic or drug addict is supporting their choice of lifestyle

That's exactly what I mean!  I will NOT contribute to the neglect of a dog.

I'll do a dog once, if it comes back in the same state they can find another groomer - end of story.  I've had the ones who come back 2 or 3 times a year not having touched the dog.  That means that it's almost impossible to even find a place to start clipping without hurting the dog, it's so cruel.  Add to that the fact that a dog who isn't groomed between going to the groomers becomes extremely stressed when at the groomers because he's simply not used to being groomed at all and it adds up to a very unhappy experience for the dog :(

At the moment I can only do a few dogs as I share the workshop.  But the dogs I do groom are kept beautifully and their owners really appreciate the work I put in, they may not be Champions, but they look like show dogs and have their coats treated accordingly.  I will also train the owners to do their breed grooming themselves if they want to learn - it's such a pleasure teaching people who are willing to have a go.

I was told when training "As a groomer, you will get the dogs you deserve, it's up to you to ensure that owners bring their dogs back unknotted.  If you always clip off the knotted ones then those are what you'll get!"

I only have one or two clients that constantly bring their dogs back in a hopelessly matted state. Most of them once they see how awful a clipped off bichon (eg) looks like will try to do things better, and I do show them how to brush properly. Yesterday I had 2 bichons which had to be clipped off, the owner had not had this breed before and hadn't realised how hard their coats are to care for. I'll find out next time if she's learned! And I try to book appointments when they leave, but my clients never seem to have their diaries with them. At the end of the day, I also became a groomer to make dogs look nice and feel more comfortable, and the dogs don't care if they are trimmed to the breed standard or not. Yes it would be nice to have more scissored bichons etc but that's not how things work around here - I have 2 other grooming friends in my area and they find just the same. I went to Shuttleworth college btw Westcoast, an adequate grounding in the basics but not brilliant, and it was all too rushed when they cut the course down from 3 years to 2 part way through.

ps Westcoast what do you do with Yorkies and Shih Tzus then, do you refuse to make them short but fluffy and insist all your owners keep them in full show coats??

an adequate grounding in the basics but not brilliant, and it was all too rushed when they cut the course down from 3 years to 2 part way through.
Such a shame Lucy. :(  I've found that general colleges rarely have adequate equipment and have a high student to tutor ratio.  They tend to not provide enough dogs and the student has to provide their own and so a hotch potch of friends and neighbours dogs are brought along, struggling and fighting against the student all the way and the tutor is trying to teach different groups, different breeds, which leads to chaos.  Not the easiest way to teach or learn. :(  Is that what happens there?  The pay at these places is usually so poor that a decent groomer who runs a busy and lucrative parlour wouldn't consider training there, especially with poor facilities.  Every person that I've come across who has trained at general colleges struggles to have enough dogs to earn a decent living and keep them fully employed.  They are always frightened to lose a client rather than have a waiting list of owners wanting to bring their dogs.  There are lots of groomers out there with REAL potential and they end up working as sheep shearers and it makes me sad. :(
The training school that I worked at never had anymore than 4 students at a time for each tutor and their own older and patient dogs were provided for novice groomers to start to learn, making learning much easier.

Westcoast what do you do with Yorkies and Shih Tzus then, do you refuse to make them short but fluffy and insist all your owners keep them in full show coats??
Generally I refuse to clip them - it completely ruins the coat and makes grooming even more difficult for the owners.  As always there are exceptions eg if the dog is really too ancient to be groomed on a regular basis.  A Yorkie with a correct coat is very easy to keep long, as is a Shih Tzu.  They need a slicker brush, a comb and 10 minutes twice a week with the correct technique to keep their dog in good condition.  I would just take them to 1" off the ground and then hygiene areas short.    Most owner love nothing more than to see their dog gallopping in the park or garden with their coat flowing!  For owners who find it more difficult, then I'd scissor the body to about 3" long and the head and tail to balance so that they look like 9 month old puppies and very recognisable for their breed, which is very managable to last 8 weeks.  When they master the technique and realise that it isn't difficult and really doesn't take too much time, then many ask me to leave the coat longer.:)

I did my first two Yorkies in a puppy trim, with the coat parted down the middle but with a shorter skirt. The next time both owners came in they wanted the back clipped off short too. :-( Same with Shih Tzus - I have enough trouble persuading people to have them trimmed to 5/8 length instead of clipping off with 7F, they'd never go for having it any longer. Perhaps people are just busier there. And yes, my college was much as you describe - about 9 or 10 of us with 2 or 3 'tutors' who were actually usually 3rd year students (back when there was a 3rd year!). There was only 1 qualified groomer there with the class usually. But I think I do a fair job - my Cavalier clients particularly love the way I do their dogs after taking them to places that clip them off!

> You're right lilacbabe, you'll get those poor  stinky dogs back once or twice a year when their owners can't bear the smell any more of the poor dogs are covered in skin problems!  And that's exactly why the owners keep neglecting their dogs lilacbabe - because you keep getting them out of trouble!  Have you tried taking pictures and telling them that the RSPCA consider it an offence to neglect their dogs' coats?  That would REALLY help those poor neglected dogs rather than perpetuate their suffering.  You're not doing those poor dogs any favours at all!

No westcoast I do not get them back 1 or  2 a year  they come back more often than that just not as regularly as they should . Even the regulars dogs come in matted and smelly but I still do them and I do not know what you class as stinky but I have only had a couple of dogs that have been so bad that I have considered telling the RSPCA. And by good luck they have not been covered in skin problems .

I am doing the dogs a favour more than you have been I think because I do not tell them that I will not groom them and send them somewhere else. How do you know that the dogs you refuse to do are taken to another groomer to get done ? thus perpetuating there suffering!!!!

Yes there are groomers and dogs to suit every one I agree just that I groom every thing that comes in to my salon and do not " pick and choose " !!!

Also I am the only groomer in the area and I mean the nearest one to me is over *) plus miles away and If I reported the badly groomed ones to the RSPCA people would be more wary about taking their dogs to me or even worse leave them and not get them done at all

> Unfortunately many groomers don't have the skills themselves to pass on to the owners

Its not a case of the groomer not having the skills to teach people how to groom their dogs ( and I do hope you are not refering to myself !)
I do not know what kind of world you live in westcoast but you can explain till you are blue in the face but some owners do not listen or have no time or their dog wont let them. Yes I know it should not be like that but it is most people have their dogs as pets not show dogs they care for their dogs but perhaps do not have the knowledge or skills for grooming.I get in some beautifully kept dogs which is great but I sometimes feel that these dogs are never let out of the house to be DOGS as they never seem to have any dirty bits on them at all . What I am trying to say is a dog that is out and about being walked on the beach or through muddy fields or dirty roads in the wind and rain etc do get tangled and dirty and that is when the owners find it difficult to groom them . Yes they maybe should take a bit more time and do it properly but who am I to demand they either make sure that their dog is well groomed before it comes in to me , they wouldn't need me then would they ?

> Continually clipping off a matted dog is like supporting the owners' behaviour, just like covering up for an alchoholic or drug addict is supporting their choice of lifestyle. :-(

Are you saying you vet the owner as well before you agree to do their dogs ? as this statement seems to suggest . I do not care what lifestyle an owner has rich, poor, alchoholic, drug addict , old, young That is very snobbish I feel ,some people are just better at looking after their dogs grooming needs better than others and I am there to help them and their dogs.

I must say wouldn't it be awfull if a hair dresser refused to cut your hair if it was too long, not long enough, the style you had was not right for your face, you had left getting your colour done  and the roots were showing ??? well its sort of the same thing . Some people looked well groomed all of the time and some ( like me maybe !! ) have their hair done more than 6 to 8 weeks between . Do hair dressers refuse to do your hair if you are a regular customer and keep it in tip top condition ? no I dont think so, they are not judgemental of peoples lifestyles and grooming skills as ppeople and neither am I as a dog groomer !!!!!!!!

>I sometimes feel that these dogs are never let out of the house to be DOGS as they never seem to have any dirty bits on them at all . What I >am trying to say is a dog that is out and about being walked on the beach or through muddy fields or dirty roads in the wind and rain etc do get >tangled and dirty and that is when the owners find it difficult to groom them

Before I got into showing dogs, before I even had my own pedigree dog I had rescues, A Tibetan Terrier and an Afghan Cross in full coat.  Both those dogs lead the kind of life any active dog would wish for, often came home filthy after a walk etc. but never were left tangled dirty or matted, they were always brushed out afterwards and bathed if needed, and always combed before a walk.   The way I see it you wouldn't take your long haired daughter out without combing her hair or washing it, you wouldn't go out yourself without combing and cleaning your hair (or would you?) so why take an unbrushed, dirty dog out?   Had I ever used the services of a dog groomer I'd have bathed and combed the dog before going.  I'd be mortified to take a scuzzy dog to the groomer :(  the same as I would never go to the hairdressers with dirty hair ;)

As the only groomer within 80 miles then surely a little education would work wonders ;)  some people only need encouragement ;) 

I have clients who travel 30 and 40 miles to come to me, there are certainly groomers much closer to them and many inbetween, but they come because they don't want a shearer, they want someone who grooms correctly.