> if you are lucky to get hold of Hutchinsons and see breeds as they were

Ours look pretty much teh same in body properties, perhaps a little less snipy in head and neater in ear, yet we still get some snipy heads and large ears ;)

> but exaggerate the problem..........the evidence was there, in front of ones eyes and ears, for the badly affected dogs.

I think you have misunderstood my post.  I think my posts have made it very clear that I certainly do think some breeds are too exaggerated but I was referring here to the extent of the problem.   I also think it is correct to call it sensationalism when the producers tried to link these issues with the Nazis despite already stating themselves that selective breeding developed in the Victorian era.

In the photos shown on the TV I do think it would have been fairer to show a modern GSD stood square even though that isn't how the show stand is, that dog would have been closer to the old type though still somewhat sloping. We have 3 GSDs in our park and I looked at their back movement and none looked particularly weak, that one on the TV really did seem barely able to support his back end.

Lucy, I see what you mean but if you dont like to pay the fee, maybe have a different breed which doesnt require expensive testing?

I'm quite willing to pay for expensive testing in my chosen breed, but I'd rather not pay twice, that's all. And no, I could never have another breed, that lady at the end said Cavaliers were the gentlest and most wonderful breed in the world and I agree utterly. :-)

Agree Dakkobear, like many others, we perhaps need to take a step back and have an 'honest' look at what we have done to the breed. With a combination of all lines and characteristics they should revert to being magnificent animals. However when you have people like MM who are clearly passionate about the breed defending the 'hyena' type as being the only correct and desired standard, and alsatianists as she likes to call them defending the square table like build, this whole sorry mess will just continue to go downhill - the exact statement and thrust of the programme. It appears that no-one can stand back and take that honest look and own up to having 'tinkered' just that bit too much.

I hope not.  I'm asking genuine questions...

MM were you being sarcastic?

Yvonne - I would go the don't breed at all route! Unless you do really passionately care enough to pay for all these expensive tests, imports etc - then just don't do it.

...but I DO care enough to pay for health testing and to import new genetic diversity within my own breed ...but this still leaves me with a dilemma - there is no such thing as the perfect dog ...and so  before breeding I would need to make choices based on  a myriad of factors - if I eliminate all those dogs who fail the increasingly wide range of health tests then I will be left with a very limited number of blood lines available to use - so which should I choose ?- the dog with poor construction or the one with a poor temperament ? - or the one with none of these but  who is closely bred to my own bitch ?- in some breeds  including my own - Groenendaels - this is the reality of the available gene pool - you can see how a stud dog can become overused when he is one of the few who produces healthy, well made dogs of good characters and with good breed type ...and in Groenedaels many  are sired by a very few influential studs ...and I suspect that ours is not the only breed facing this dilemma.

It is simply not a black and white issue in many breeds - if we wish to maintain them then we have to work with the gene pool we have -

Yvonne

Well said Yvonne.  I think we should be careful what we wish for in demanding that the KC insist on particular results to be obtained before being permitted to breed rather than seeing the tests as information highly useful to a wider picture. 
They are opting for the view that each breed's needs as to whether a test or result should be mandatory should be determined on an individual basis by those that know it best ie the clubs and that seems to me to be the best way forward.

It may already have been mentioned but I haven't read this thread entirely - will do so in a mo.  Can anyone tell me the name of the silver haired lady doing all the research in SM.  She had two pet CKCS but had lost one.  My friend is involved in the breed and would like the name of this lady.

Thank you :)

Carol Fowler - its on at the moment in Scotland :-)

OMG, clearly there are not enough dog programmes on tv as this one has caused mayhem and meltdown on the board.  Just to keep everyone fired up there is another programme on sunday with Martin Clunes about our beloved poochies.

You can replay the programme on the bbc website....its even more eye opening the second time round.

They should make that programme into a series, going round all our 208 breeds. What a series that would make!

MM Actually I do prefer the conformation and movement of the American GSDs that you put the link up for, far more than the one that has roach backed dogs crabbing along looking unnatural and uncomfortable. Just my opinion, but these dogs look happier and healthier, and quite frankly more 'normal'. They are probably not quite 'there' yet, but are more in line with the description of a good gsd, in particular 'back between withers and croup straight, flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. So there we have it STRAIGHT not hunchbacked.

I simply don't believe that these dogs are what Max von Stephanitz was aiming to produce. Just looking at the dogs years ago, and his dogs in particular they were in fact relatively 'upright' and square, not crouched and low to the ground.

The GSd certainly found it hard to walk, all of them, so unlike the Police and army dogs I have seen. Why turn the show bred ones into something that can't walk? Hardly a good conformation, even if it does follow the breed standard.

definately not from the UK, so I cant comment truely on how someone exibits a dog.  But what I did notice, and I dont know if its true or not, is that showing a dog in the UK is done on a flat collar, and the dog is walked leisurely around the ring????  Again, since I dont know about UK showing, its only an observation from the program. 

But here, we run our dogs round the ring, to show movement.  They arent walked.  And the movement in the GSD is a nice one, at a nice pace.  It kinda looked as though the dogs were being held back on the program, and of course they are going to go a bit hocky if they are being held back.  Any dog would. 

But some breeders, have exaggerated the slopping topline of the GSD.  It is starting to look as though the dogs are in a sit all the time, when they are standing!  I remember reading that a GSD should have a slope of about 45 Degrees from withers to rear, and the slopes on some GSDs are much much more than that. 

And we seem to be breeding dogs bigger and bigger as well.  Or to exaggerate smallness, as the wonderful name Teacup suggests (being sarcastic).  And thats not just North America, but all round the world that we are changing the dogs.  But most breeds arent getting better for the change, they are getting worse! 

You can replay the programme on the bbc website....its even more eye opening the second time round.

You can also catch it on Youtube! 

>showing a dog in the UK is done on a flat collar, and the dog is walked leisurely around the ring???? 

No, not true. Most dogs are shown on a narrow slip lead or half-check, and are always trotted, never walked.

GSDs are shown differently and are always trotted very fast, in front of the handler, appearing to the outsider to be dragging the handler around the ring.

No, not true. Most dogs are shown on a narrow slip lead or half-check, and are always trotted, never walked.

GSDs are shown differently and are always trotted very fast, in front of the handler, appearing to the outsider to be dragging the handler around the ring.

Good to know, cos the show on the tv just showed these GSD being leisurely walked around the ring, which did make their movement look horrible! 

> I remember reading that a GSD should have a slope of about 45 Degrees from withers to rear

Errr I don't think you mean 45 degrees? This is what a slope of 45 degrees from withers to rear would look like :-D 

p.s. good drawing eh :-D

as i posted very early on.

Totally agree and i think that any breeder should be willing to take on the responsiblity of finding pet homes for the less than perfect puppies. Culling is DISGUSTING. full stop!!!!

> p.s. good drawing eh

Like the Loch Ness Monster ;-)

Ouch :-D So I shouldn't give up my day job then :-D

Good drawing, now I am trying to remember where I had seen that about the topline.  Good thing I am not a GSD breeder eh?  I would ruin the dogs for sure!  (signs contract saying, I will never breed a GSD in my life)

Suddenly it's all clear...maybe all the American, UK and German breeders read the same description as you Crespin and have been desperately trying to make their dogs look like that :-D

I have stayed fairly detached about this thread and haven't got as enraged as many but don't think the fall out is going to be too big.  I would have thought there would have been a deluge of people on here asking if their dogs are walking health hazards that are going to die but there has been none of that.  It looks like it has had an impact in dog circles but the wider impact is likely to be minimal.

Modern day German Shepherd Breeders should have a look at this gait and remind themselves what GSD should aspire to look like IMO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/39.jpg

I daresay he wouldn't win many Siegers now; not extreme enough.  Bitterly disappointed at what's coming out of Germany now.  :-(

After reading many posts on here about the big bad world of pedigree dog and how closely breed they are. One question, what happens in the wild?  

I think anyone with a brain nos, but i will be interested to hear from the likes of Poppet and others that share her views