I don't think the dog in your second link's topline would be so different to the first if stood on level ground, Moonmaiden.  Do you really think this is the way dogs should look on the move?

I can't help thinking the point of the programme is being missed here - ultimately, that breeding for looks and exaggerating certain 'desirable traits' is causing health problems in a few selected breeds.  The argument against inbreeding was poor and as we all know, selective breeding is necessary to breed out these problems in the same way that it has caused them to be bred in.

However, for me, the main point was how the breeds have changed over the years due to dogs being bred for looks alone.  It doesn't really matter how many times the breed standard is quoted, it is still open to interpretation.  Most breeds have changed only marginally in looks, and certainly not in ways that affect their health.  Even labs, the current show labs are heavier (and I don't just mean fat) than the champions of 100 years ago...yet, the breed standard hasn't changed.... It is purely down to interpretation and trends. 

In the breeds shown in the film, these exaggerations caused distressing health problems.  I can't help feeling a little bit disappointed that posters I have the utmost respect for appear to illustrate the very point the film was making - that those within these breeds are blind to what they are doing.

I think the point of the programme was to sensationalise and over exaggerate the problem and create a film that would be saleable to commissioners looking for viewing figures myself.
Whilst some breeds clearly are in trouble, just because many have changed over the years does not mean they have all suffered.  Most have just been refined and improved in looks, albeit to the human eye.  If this is not always detrimental to the animals health that point, in itself, does not seem to be an ethical issue to me.

They are not my type of GSD & neither are the UK/English type either. Zamp has proved he is "fit for purpose"as he has his Schutzhund qualifications, however he is a show version of the working GSDs in Germany which are my preferred type. No sign of Zamp being "crippled in the video clip of his bite work ! Nor in the ring at the SV Sieger where he can been seen happily gaiting OFF lead towards the end of the clip

Would that the English UK type GSD/Alsatian could do this sadly with their short legs & over angulation they can't They would fail this part of the test

I suggest that you look at ALL the dogs on this breeders site(he is a shepherd BTW)the how can you assess the dog on the first page as he is not totally visible. Are you saying that the "GSD"on the KC site is how GSDs should look, what grounds can you base that on, does the dog work ? I very very much doubt IT It would become tired quickly as it would be having to lift it's lower back upwards to move

You will be an admirer of this dog & the rest of the dogs on this site(please note the domain name-alsatiansuk !!!!!) er were is the Straight back on the dog they allegedly use as the template to breed to ???????????(the one on the page on the link)

>Would that the English UK type GSD/Alsatian could do this sadly with their short legs & over angulation they can't

Blimey, I wouldn't like to have been the bloke in the sleeve hit by that dog. Looking for a bit of education here, not trying to open a can of worms - but why does a sheep herding dog NEED to be able to do that?

M.

> Blimey, I wouldn't like to have been the bloke in the sleeve hit by that dog. Looking for a bit of education here, not trying to open a can of worms - but why does a sheep herding dog NEED to be able to do that?
>

Because it is part of the Schutzhund competition the handler & dogs are taking part in & goes back to when the dogs were working with the shepherd & needed to protect the sheep/shepherd from human predators(not wolves or stray dogs BTW)

Oh, and just to add, with my limited knowledge of GSDs, it would seem to me that a fair amount of the 'English' type have become as much an overdone caricature of themselves as some of the 'German' type.

M.

Would that dog's apparent over-enthusiasm be seen as a positive thing, MM, or would that be seen as excessive? Most of the other links seem to show a positive approach to the bite (if that's the right term?), but nothing like the dog in that link.

M.

The "helper"was actually off balance when the dog hit him. The dog is not showing aggression BTW he/she is focused on the sleeve & only the sleeve-a very enthusicastic dog. In initial training unlike the services & police in the UK control is obtained first & the dog is taught to see a hessian sack as a tuggy play thing & then progress onto a roll of hessian. The dog must give up bought the sack & the bite bar on command. All protection work training is done at first with the dog on a collar/harness & lead-the services & police in the uk do not train this way they tease & wind up the dogs at the same time they are doing the basic training. this leads to dogs that learn to bite out of flustration & without control.

Better a dog that performs like this than one that goes in & does not release or will not go in at all-both these IMHO are a sign of poor training

>so nobody will win out of this

It is not sensationalism. I have watched the GSD's movement with horror for years. I have listened to PUgs trying to breathe on a hot day. It beggars beleif, that people cannot see what is in front of their eyes.As well as all the other breeds mentioned and a huge amount more.

The ones that should win is the dogs themselves.

> I am confused ... what is the difference between a Sieger and a GSD?

A Sieger(in any breed on the continent)is the dog graded VA1 in the breeding class of the annual Sieger show for whichever country & breed involved the word Sieger is German for winner or victor

A GSD is any German Shepherd Dog

> I have watched the GSD's movement with horror for years.

Hm you need to look at the rear ends of the American GSD type if you really want to see unstable hindquarters

Agreed so glad you wrote who wrote the breed standards if they seek to deform animals? I am a GSB hater because I got bitten as a child they scare me, its my fault but i woud not have one. But they never looked as deformed as those on the links or on the programme they were majestic animals. These are malformed cripples. The dogs should be breed to improve the breed not to deform is to someones idea of what a "perfect dog" to the human eye is.

sensationalise ,maybe, but exaggerate the problem..........the evidence was there, in front of ones eyes and ears, for the badly affected dogs. No need to sensationalise or exaggerate, the reality was bad enough. As was the attitude of some breeders and top people of the KC.

I wonder, if they had the time to dig into other breeds, what else they may have found. Some very sound healthy dogs, yes, but more with problems being overlooked....maybe.

The GSD standard says
"slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected"

Do me a favour someone, raid the kid's school bag for a protractor and measure the angle on some of the backs displayed so proudly. "Slight" to my mind means one or possibly two degrees, not a ski slope of 15 degrees. The problem is one of human nature, as soon as something is suggested that is slightly out of key with the normal shape of a dog then exaggeration will creep in, sure as eggs is eggs. I haven't been able to view a show GSD without disquiet for many years.

Either way it was a sick dog in  pain that should be PTS. Fittiong or what subjecting an animal to that pain was horrific.

Very good post agree totally I will still buy pedigree but I would look at the parents (as always advised) and do a bit of research before I buy again. Breeders need to get their houses in order and not just chase the money an the back of a BIS or Champion sticker. I must admit I thought a BIS ect was a passport to "good breeding" obviously not. Or at least not in the pug, cav or pug world. The only pedigrees in my family died at 12 & 15 years old and they were toy breeds, Mums skiperkee is 14 now and has outlived Mum!! and he's still a beauty.

Yvonne - I would go the don't breed at all route! Unless you do really passionately care enough to pay for all these expensive tests, imports etc - then just don't do it.

and if the small 'passionate' breeder decides that the whole game is just too fraught with difficulties and we cease to breed at all , will this not leave the market wide open for the puppy farmers who don't give  a t***ss anyway ??!

Quite frankly, given the breeders stance shown on this programme, then you are buying from a puppy farmer anyway.

Well he is a carrier(having produced an affected dog)& yes there was an audience of "top"breeders(ie certain breeders who win alot)& one handler/co owner of a "top"dog was smirking all the time(& yes you did see her & the "top"dog on the program as well-to the best of my knowledge he is not scanned-so couldn't be focused on in the progarm. I do know his breeders have produced SM affected dogs that were misdiagnosed by their vets-their owners told me so BTW & only when they went for a second opinion to my vets did they get referred to Geoff Skerritt & found that their dogs did have SM PM me if you want the name of the dog & handler)

The top breeders think they are immune & they probably are & will continue to breed without testing & continue to be very very successful

Looking at your preferred type MM I can only see one dog with the correct topline - Hexe von der Königin  The rest have humped backs/wheel backs?

Hurrah Gaby !! way to go just what i thought what prat decided to change the breeds in ther first place!Go back to more natural dog looking dogs, not bred to look good to some mythical breed standard. Let GSD look like they did, ditto bull dogs & Bassatts.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

That is of course your expert opinion of dog photographs, the difference I have seen these dog unposed & doing schutzhund & also just doing dog things. I once took an Alsatian with a soft topline & posed it for a photograph with a hinged topline(wasn't hard the dog had a very long back & short ribcage)The dog concerned went on to win BIS at Crufts compete with it's saggy topline. You can pose dogs to look anyway you want & the tradition in GSDs is the one rear leg forward & one backward & they have never been show stood 4 square. I've even stood other breeds & made them look incorrect.

Bear in mind that all the dogs(including the humped back border collie you included LOL)have all & I mean all their working qualifications from BH to IPO 3 & include the AD test-not fit for purpose ????????

Our mongrels went on to 16 and 14 so no points scored there then. Pedigrees also lasted into their teens some of that was helped by good food and plenty of exercise. Not all pedigrees do last that long in the larger builds nor some of the larger mongrels.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I wasn't suggesting they should be stood 4 square? The photos of them stood in traditional gsd stance all but that one dog have wheel backs to some degree or another...I didn't say level, I said straight as the standard asks for....and no I wasn't including the collie :-)

Terri - Sorry, but I would amend that statement to read

A great deal of damage has been done to a great many undeserving breeds BY their custodians :)

To Isabels link
The way those shepherds move is appalling.

<just a thought ...if we eliminate all dogs that fail  their health tests from breeding ( as I believe we should )>

Fully agree but thats Eugenics isn't it? We will now be accused of being a nazi (no wonder GP is confused :rolls eyes:) Conflicting messages in the program then.

MM There is nothing shown in thos clips that an english type GSD couldn't do - ie run across a ring and grab the sleeve! In fact in the second clip that dog's legs are virtually crossing over behind - don't see what there is to crow about there!

They wouldn't be able to run that far after all most can barely manage once round the ring assisted by the handler having the choker up under the ears holding the dogs front end up-let alone the dreadful temperaments which means if they were to run it would be in the opposie direction !

Perhaps you prefer this USA type of toplines & movement

>Either way it was a sick dog in  pain that should be PTS. Fittiong or what subjecting an animal to that pain was horrific.

Which dog are you referring to? Fitting (as shown by the boxer), according to many people who fit, is painless. SM (as shown by the cavalier) clearly isn't.

Golden Lady

I agree 100% with everything you have said. And it is true, there are none so blind as those who will not see, and this is even evidenced in some cases on the replies on this board, who are strongly dissociating themselves from the breeders featured in the programme (and quite rightly i'm sure in a lot of cases). An example (can't remember who, this thread is SO long) who said, oh but I like the cavalier with the shorter domed head! So there we have it the fact that the brain doesn't fit in this changed shape to the skull is irrelevant, so long as it looks 'pretty'.

I can only see one way forward, and that is compulsory health testing and litters only registered when the appropriate scans, certificates etc have been provided. Clearly all this claptrap about the 'good of the breed' is a smokescreen for moneymaking, just like puppyfarmers, it seems that the breeders who really care are in a very small minority, otherwise these conditions would not be so prevalent.
Changes to the breed standard, as with the bulldogs to try and bring back healthy versions of the breeds would certainly help, so long as they were judged to that standard. The breeders would soon start to fall in line if they didn't get their trophies.  I think that this programme was a real education, and long overdue.  I have been strongly interested and owned dogs for 30+ years, and it showed me some things that I didn't know, although it sadly confirmed a lot of things that I did know too.

The SM dog was put down and the boxer should be unless there was someone there 24/7 and it cant be doing his heart much good. I say that from experiance with an uncle who was eplileptic and during a fit his heart gave way. Its cant be good to leave them other writers confirm that they often 1) attack other dogs or 2) the medication can make them self mutilate. Its not healthy at all and distressing for the dog and its owners.

This link is to very straight backed GSDs in the USA look at their super movement I love the front leg movement Reminds me a certain armies goose step & no they are not of the International type you can tell by the number of dogs in the small ring before the dogs even start to move. The USA must have the correct type of dog then as they have straight backs in stance pity that that lovely straight back bounces up & down in movement-but that must be correct too & they are all fit for purpose because they have all be OFA tested & have the required period of suspension( all four legs are off the ground the longer the period of suspension the better BTW)

Have a look at a kennels that only has "Straight"backed GSDs lovely aren't they(not)

BTW the HGH tests in Germany are not done with three or four sheep(as shown on this site)but with a full flock in excess of 100 sheep !!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a question re: the GSD movement/rear drive, are they supposedto walk virtually down on their hocks like that?

I like others have clicked on 'someone' to reply to - I'm not actually replying to one person only.

What I'm often surprised by is one persons need to convince an other that 'I' am right and 'you' are wrong.  This thread, as the programme itself, has polarised opinion about pedigree and mongrel.  No change there then, as long as their have been both - I'm sure the same discussions have taken place.

Because of the type of forum this is - it has a particular dog demographic perhaps? - there are a lot of comments from people with experience of showing and breeding.  When I read through the replies from breeders and non breeders alike there seem to be more points of agreement than disagreement but as is usual these opinions are expressed in different ways, using different language and different terms of reference which has led to some emotional responses!

But isn't this what any 'good' programme or newspaper article should do?  Not the factual, educational type for sure but this style of programme is supposed to do this.  The views expressed in the programme are not representative of all breeds, breeders or vets - and neither would you expect them to be - but it has stimulated discussion.  It probably will lead to some changes but it is unlikely to be from the 'todays news is tomorrows fish and chip paper brigade' but the breed societies, the KC, the judges, and those of us who care passionately about the long term health and well being of our dogs. 

When change does come - it won't be because we all stood around shouting loudly at each other; it will be because we will quietly and insistently work towards improving our small corner of the dog world, by listening to others, gathering experience and by joining together in a constructive way to effect change.

OK soap box position over BUT whilst we continue to discuss dogs remember that programmes about children, global warming, poverty, homelessness, war etc rarely get the kind of emotional response that this programme got - food for thought!

Don't think that was soap box at all, very good post! :-)
It certainly has gotten people involved in my breed talking, thinking, discussing ways to improve upon what is already quite a good health test programme, the breed standard and how it can be a negative thing as well as positive and so on.
So I'm in agreement with you, amonst the obvious disagreements, there are hopefully also positive steps quietly being taken.

The USA dogs ? no they are not but because they have the lovely straight sloping back & the fashionable angulation they either have to raise their back to bring the leg forward or to flatten the rear pasterns(the joint is the hock not the bone between the joint & the foot)& puht the legs sideways to gait(I've seen these type of dogs in real life)this results in the pelvic region becoming unstable & the dogs rear movement really has to be seen to be believed !

The dogs that raise their backs don't get placed so the ones that run on the rear pasterns are bred from & are successful in the ring !

Thanks for the explanation MM, I guess it was to my question? 
Is it comfortable for them though?  I guess the leg forward movement you have described thus enables the dog to keep a level top line or the top line that is desirable should I say?
Are dogs supposed to runs on their rear pasterns? 
Hope you don't think I'm being picky, just trying to understand.
Thanks for your reply so far.

MM, what type was the GSD shown on the programme and why was its rear movement so awful ?

Tessies Tracey, I think MM is being sarcastic ;)

LOLOL The dogs are the AKC version of the GSD, there are International type in the USA but they hold their own shows & Schutzhund & HGH trials The entries at this shows are huge like the Siger in Germany.

There is a lot of concern about the instability of the rear quarters of these dogs because they have to move the way they do. The dogs will all be OFA hip & elbow tested(equivalent of UK hip/elbow scoring)they are done at 2 years of age. There is one such dog in the UK he was bred from over here under a year old I believe & un x rayed, the reason being that they don't x ray in the USA until the dogs are 2 !!!! He might have been x rayed in the USA as he returned there to get made up, he hasn't won a CC in the UK yet & is shown on the UK type circuit

so the ones showed on the BBC programme were american

The dogs in the BBC program where the world Sieger Zamp & a German Import that is a UK champion Ice.

We did not see the dogs actually being shown they were both being restrained & held back by their handlers & if you pull a dog backwards it does not move typically. I've seen videos of both dogs being shown outside in the size of ring they should be shown in ie half a football pitch. If these dogs are so very unsound they would not be able to gait for the length of time they are required to in Germany(not once up & down & once round)

I judged GSDs at one show & had a mixed entry of International & Alsatian types. Except for the puppy classes I expected the dogs to be able to walk & gait for at least 20-30 minutes. Doing the individuals I discovered that the Alsatain type had very iffy temperaments & all backed off when not strung up on their cheese wire chokers. They also all had multiple missing teeth including one that went on to be made up !! This dog was faded black & cream in colour & had 14 missing teeth !! When the class was gaiting the Alsatain types quickly "fell apart"not only were they not "fit" for purpose(any purpose IMHO)& their over angulation meant they had to expend way too much energy in movement & most lasted only a couple of circuits of the fairly small ring

Moonmaiden

Can't say that I can see what the 'Germanic' type GSD has that's any better, they walk like Hyena's too. Perhaps you have some of those blinkers that people put on when they are determined they are right and everyone else is wrong! :-)
The competitions in Germany are still 'judged' I presume, against some kind of standard too, probably by people who have 'an interest' in the result and therefore are just as subjective as any others! Human nature will out in any kind of competition and I'm sure the winners will be sought after for breeding just as champions are here.
Just because YOU prefer it, doesn't make it right and the Hyena movement on those dogs coupled with the 'Knock Knee', hunch back, look in the pictures doesn't make them look like 'perfect' examples by any means - pots and kettles I think. After posting them as an example of how the breed should look you can't then say 'Well anything can look bad in a picture'

LOLOL no I was answering another question re the USA dogs !

> what about the pugs?

Have one in our village who charges around with my terriers - she is nearly as fast as they are, does agility AND is a show winner. Not all these breeds are poorly bred.

Nothing better ??????? good temperaments, good hips & elbows, good work drive these are not as good as the Alsatian type which attack small dogs becasue they are frightened, have to be held up by their handlers on cheese wire chokers, have no health status because they are not health tested, are too long in boby & too short in leg against the breed standard requirements & whose breeders sell dysplasic puppies to working homes You are quire correct dogs like my Echo(see my webiste link on my profile)are terrible(he had 0:0=0 hips & a temperament to die for) they such all be destroyed & we should go back to the dogs so nervous that the breed standard had to have "Noted suspicion of strangers"added here in the UK to excuse their fear biting & backing off from people Yep you are right the Alsatian is the way forward for the German Shepherd !

Dakkobear certainly didn't seem to be saying the UK ones were better MM, just that they all seem as bad as each other. I agree with her. Just because you personally like one type, you're not going to be able to persuade us all that the ones on the programme with the wobbly hocks are super sound dogs - and the ones on that website with the wheel backs are the way the standard should be.

On the contrary, I certainly don't think that the UK ones are better, or the American ones, as Tigger2 says, I think that they all have faults and that maybe its time that everyone in GSD's , whether here, in Germany or in the USA, took a step back and looked properly at the dogs they are producing! Perhaps it is just a consequence of being a popular breed that makes breeders tinker with them until they look freakish.

> You are quire correct dogs like my Echo(see my webiste link on my profile)are terrible(he had 0:0=0 hips & a temperament to die for) they such all be destroyed

I have no idea what your Echo was like and I certainly did not advocate destroying any dog, but saying that there was 'nothing wrong' with the movement of that GSD on the clip makes you seem as bad as the breeders who think its OK for pugs to faint when they get excited, or for breeders to hide the fact that their dogs carry genetic disorders. I simply think that people who are 'into' certain 'types' in a big way are so busy defending their position that they fail to see that sometimes others are right.

Its a pity for the sake of the dogs that we can't just start all over again without the need for all these over-exaggerations.

ETA: If Echo is the dog in the B&W picture then, yes he does look beautiful, but he has an elegant line to his back that the other dogs don't in their pictures! There is much less exaggeration and curvature.