Seems to me the child is losing all ways. if the hair stays the same shes bullied. To the extent its affecting her wellbeing. If she has hair colour shes losing, even though the bullying stops. If the hair is not coloured, and shes told 'your hair is fine' get on with it, shes pushed back into the arms of the bully, totally failed to be understood, and feeling betrayed by her parent for not understanding and supporting. if she stands up to the bully, which being a quiet, wellmannered child taught not to answer back is exceptionally difficult for her at this young age especially, the school punishes her for reacting. She loses all round, full marks to the bully.

Perhaps her mother and father should sit her down and discuss with her, rationally and in an adult way, why she thinks ginger hair (if she had it!) would be so bad. The moment she realises it's perfectly all right then the bully/joker/teaser has lost all his power over her and she's no longer a 'victim'.

>Perhaps her mother and father should sit her down and discuss with her, rationally and in an adult way, why she thinks ginger hair (if she had it!) would be so bad. The moment she realises it's perfectly all right then the bully/joker/teaser has lost all his power over her and she's no longer a 'victim'.

In a ideal world, yes.

When I was younger I was teased about my nose. There was nothing wrong with it but if enough people start saying there is you start to believe it. I used to sleep face down on it to try to straighten the end. BUT, the fact is that I couldn't do anything to change my nose - even though I would have liked to - so I learned to ignore it. They then moved on to teasing me about my flat chest (they should see me now LOL). It was only that I didn't give them a reaction that they moved on, but I was a more confident child than this one - she is very sensitive and gets upset easily.

This is a BIG school - nearly 1000 pupils. She is in her first year there and she is being really, really teased by an older boy. We have ALL tried the approach you give below but it doesn't work. She just knows that when she has had her hair done she has the confidence to know he cannot tease her and she can then stand up to him. So what is wrong with that if it works for her?!

As for empowering the bully - if she is dying her brown hair brown (with a few highlights) then the bully won't even notice - but it gives HER the confidence to deal with it.

>if she stands up to the bully, which being a quiet, wellmannered child taught not to answer back is exceptionally difficult for her at this young age especially, the school punishes her for reacting.

You'll have to explain to me how any teacher will consider a child saying "Yeah okay, whatever" to another child is doing something that deserves punishment.

Jg, Ok I will. Schoolyard. Playtime. Bully, usually with mates, walks over to target. Starts mouthing target. Target moves away, bully follows mouthing. Target is, understandably, feeling apprehensive. scared. Humiliated. The jibes continue, target turns round and says 'I like my red hair' then moves off. I can hear the whoooooooo comments as I write this! They then follow target, more abuse. Target tries again, tells them quite firmly to leave her/him alone. Bully dosnt like this turn of event, comments become threatening, loks like a fight may start....along comes teacher who may have seen the middle of this episode. When confronted, bully goes all bog eyed, says target started it Miss, was just joking and target got nasty, not my fault miss.......the target is told off for reacting, should have said nothing, and found a teacher.

They are told that, should anyone verbal them, they should say NOTHING and find a teacher. If hit they should not react they should find a teacher. If a group of lads surround them, and within that circle they are being beaten, they must not react, but when its over find a teacher. If a child hits them in class, they must not react but tell the teacher. The target must do nothing at all. They will be given a bullying report, and if someone bullies them they have to write the name of the bully, time and date, at the end of the week hand it in.

If that is the schools policy and the children are aware of it then I don't see why the child would not do as told ie say nothing and tell a teacher, although I find it rather disconcerting that any teacher would not be aware of which one is likely to be telling the truth about who started it or who would tell a child off for forgetting the policy and daring to say "I like red hair".  I think this is missing the point though which is that child will have been reared knowing that there is nothing about his appearance that is not acceptable so even if he has to cope with these bullying situation the basic taunt should not hurt him so much than he feels the need to change himself.

But isobel, thats what bullying is all about! demeaning the target. making them feel bad. Constant mental torture, 8 hours a day if they are in class together. Undermining whatever they have been bought up to believe. if a girl is being called ugly by a spiteful attractive, popular girl, she will feel ugly. Even if shes the most beautiful girl there. Its not just that though, the sexual practise comments which i cant say here are bad, and some kids have filthy minds and mouths. The basic taunt in isolation shouldnt cause a problem, but its rarely in isolation, thats the trouble.

It is a fact that the bully is a convincing liar, and can make themselves out to be angels when confronted. the target, however, feeling bad enough, often cant say much. They become tounge tied. And, sadly yes, some teachers will tell the target off for forgetting the policy, and for making comments back. really.

As to these comments of 'the child should have been bought up to accept all etc'
For a start, this is letting the bully off, putting the blame on the target and their parents. The bully is at fault here, not the target or the parents. bringing up children is not easy, its the hardest job I have ever done, and there is no training that can prepare you for it. No book you can read that has all the answers. And a huge shock to the system! hands on parenting is trial and error, sharing helpful advice from the extended family, your friends who also have kids, and no parent ever gets it 'right' lol....we just do our best.

Now, Im not trying to cause offence here, but I could certainly take it from these comments you and others make about if the target had been mentally prepared for bullying it would not affect them. As if the parent of the bullied child has failed in some way........if the child had been bought up 'right'  it wouldnt be affected. Whats the 'right' way? is there a 'right' way for anything? Two kids in a family can be totally different, even when raised the same.  Both can be open minded to others, accept themselves as they are, be happy. However, when the teenage hormones start, many can have self doubts about their looks, appearance etc, thats natural and part of growing up. if they have been bullied about their looks from a young age, doubt can set in. Of course, they think, mum and dad say i look nice......they would.....but AM I? Then they get spots........Add the presure of school work today, and a bully totally upheaving your life......

I actually dont know of any adult that would not wish to change an aspect of themselves and use anything from makeup to hair dye, new shoes with heels to a facial, to achieve this. ( Well, the ladies anyway The men may have other ways ;)   )    Why is it so wrong for a youngster to make the most of thenselves? lets not just say the ginger hair bit now, but any aspect of themselves? if it increases confidence, whats wrong with it?

>I actually dont know of any adult that would not wish to change an aspect of themselves and use anything from makeup to hair dye, new shoes with heels to a facial, to achieve this.

>Why is it so wrong for a youngster to make the most of thenselves? lets not just say the ginger hair bit now, but any aspect of themselves? if it increases confidence, whats wrong with it?

How has it helped Michael Jackson?

JG, dont you thin MJ is a bit erm extreem anyway? I was talking about enhancing what you have, not totally destroying it :) I would never go under the knife even if promised that i would have the most wonderful body and the baby belly and other droopy bits would be nipped and tucked (or in my case chopped and folded ;) ) and I could have it for free! A bit less radical I think please....just a bit of make up and killer heels :)

You are talking about situation where adults are handling it badly ie teachers not aware of who the bullies are.  You are also taking about very severe situations where it is pretty hopeless anyway without relying on those adults knowing whats what.  I really don't have an answer for these severe situations and I have not attempted to suggest I have. 
However, the majority of bullying is not at this level and most schools have policies to deal with it.  There is also an awful lot more of just teasing from otherwise friends, hurtfull sometimes nonetheless, and this is what a child really needs to get skills at coping with because it is something you are likely to meet, everywhere ;), for the rest of your life. 

Kids can, or should, be able to deal with teasing from friends and family, as Iv said. its not that sort of teasing. its the nasy, spiteful jibes that kids that hate them use. No amount of confidence will stop the child feeling bad, but Iv said all this before. This is severe bullying, when it changes the way a child lives its life. it can also escalate to something more nasty.

But, if you are simply talking about the friendly, even if sometimes hurtful jibes, from friends and family, sure, a child should be able to give and receive that no probs. All part of growing up. As should accepting some degree of nasty comments if the child is able to give as good as she/he gets back, also part of growing up. When a child is targeted, and affected by it, that is a different matter.

I have to add though, providing its not from parents who are abusive, and the comments are made to make the child feel worthless.....but thats another thing altogether.

A parent's job is teaching a child that teasing is teasing is teasing, no matter who it's from. Meaningful 'life classes' will help children develop the thicker skin needed to have a happy future. :) Yes, the jibes may make children feel bad - falling over hurts physically and you teach your children to cope - get a sticking plaster and a kiss to make it better. Likewise with teasing/taunting - yes, it hurts, but in life you need to be a 'brave soldier' or you go under. The parents are there for the vital background support. It's the loving support through the rough times that has an influence on whether a character becomes a survivor or a victim.

Victims become survivors theough, with help and support. By removing the thing that made them a victim, and counciling to help them deal with this and therefor lead their way back to being a survivor. Victims are not there because they want to be. but because someone/thing put them there.

I dont accept that a child should have to accept that nasty teasing from some bully is the same as home/friend teasing. it is abuse, the same as nice hugs from grandad is good, but secret hugs from anyone are bad. yes, they need to learn how to cope, and Im right there with you about the loving support being so important through the bad times. that is totally essential.

JG, I feel you dont know what bullying is.

Don't you think comments like that are rather pointless and could equally lobbed either way without enlightening any of us?  Why not just give your understanding of bullying and leave others to do the same then we can all make our own minds up about who we think knows what it is :)

No Isobel, because I really don't think JG understands what bullying is. That is not a namethrowing comment, that is what i feel. An honest opinion.

That might be your opinion but it adds nothing to the debate as we will each have an opinion about who we thinks has the greater understanding.  What would be far more enlightening is an explaination as to why you think you know better than JG.

Because my kids have/are going through this. because i know what its like, to have a demoralised child, to see my confident boys change, to have the tears, to see the bruises from beatings, to nearly have one killed because he was chased by 200 (yes 200) kids who wanted to thump him, till he got to the railings and with no where to run jumped over them and onto a busy main road, in panic. oh, i could tell you some personal stories, mine and others, but to say that a confident child does not get bullied, and if the parents had bought them up correctly they could just shrug it off, as if somehow the child and parents are to blame, well to me that gives no understanding at all of the situation. I'll get my sons onhere if you like, they are confident, let them tell you what bully rule is like.

Ok, Im a bit emotional, but any parent that read the bits about a confident child not suffering the effects of bullying, that if they had been bought up right they would be able to deal with it, could make a parent feel they had badly failed their child. this is not correct. How a child deals with it depends on the child and the feriousness and persistance of the bully. Some wont give in.

All this started from 'harmless' teasing and name calling...........

What a silly thing to say, Calmstorm, and very unlike you.

Can I ask, are people saying that being confident will stop bullying? Is that what is meant?

I agree a confident person is generally less likely to be bullied - or maybe even that isn't true - but I can't see that it would stop all bullying. Certainly not the vicious type where older children don't even care if a classmate does kill themselves.

Also, even if confidence did help, are members  saying that those who are not confident "deserve" to be bullied?

Lindsay
x

Being confident (or appearing to be confident) will stop a lot of what might be intended to be nasty from actually hurting - and if it doesn't bother the person then it isn't bullying. That's obvious. If someone calls me "fatso", trying to be nasty, I couldn't give a monkey's - so I'm not a victim. Being confident will help a person (of any age) to deal with unpleasantness better - not to stop it happening, but to handle it when it does. That's the attitude that parents, teachers and others should encourage.

As JG say teaching confidence is certainly going to help in the majority of cases.  In the extreme cases that you outline it is also very important that the child understand where they can turn to if they are not coping with it.
No child deserves to be bullied no matter what they do. 

Isobel, he did, before it happened (being chased off the grounds)he went to the pastoral leader and asked for his help, because he knew what was happening, that this lad was after him. The pastoral leader told him he was busy, to get outside and keep his head down. he did, and went towards a busy safe place in the view of adults, but before he got there he was chased and herded away. Another time, this lad got a friend to lure my son to a quiet area, when there both boys held him down and gave him a good kicking, he was covered in bruises. Oh, the school made all sort of noises, but the lad in question has his mum working there, she is a support teacher in the special unit, and her son can do no wrong. My son did nothing to provoke this child, who has a long record of bullying and fighting, stands up in class and calls the teacher sexually offensive names and gets away with it. here is no doubt this school has a problem, it rules by violence, the kids (not all) sort things out by fighting, and do they love to fight....but the school calls it 'skirmishes' Anyway, i have taken him out of there, and fingers crossed, he is doing well at the new school, yes there is teasing, but the kids are friendly and welcoming. he was not dealing with it, we had some problems, but he always tells me everything, and I tend to be one step ahead of him with most things. This will sound awful, but I was the one stopping him fighting, and i finally told him that, if he was attacked, he is allowed in law to take reasonable steps to defend himself, so either restrain or after they have hit give them a good one. Awful advice, but it stopped him being beaten up. The school didnt like it, but i told them quite plainly that i was no longer prepared for my child to be treated like a punchbag, and if they couldnt ensure his safety, and as a school they were legally obliged to provide that, then he would have to look out for himself. the reason he left was not from being expelled lol, might sound like it lol, but I made the decision after he was hit by a lad that has loss of temper tantrums and hits out at whoever is there, my son caught it that time, but because he rstrained him my son was sent home. my conversation with the Head was the final straw. But, he's ok, quite an old head on his shoulders anyway, now his eating is getting back to normal the fridge is always empty :)

Hi Lindsay.  A confident and unimpressed attitude will generally not attract a bully in the first place.  Because of their own insecurities, bullies tend to pick on others who can't stand up for themselves.  It makes them feel big because they are not succeeding in other areas of their own lives.  As always, there is always the odd exception that has to be considered differently. :rolleyes:

Everyone of us has bits that makes us different to everyone else.  That is what I'm saying (I can't speak for everyone else :) ) the child should be given confidence about.  The freckles, glasses, limp, big nose, sticky out ears, big boobs, no boobs, whatever.  If a parent goes into school to defend a child about a relatively simple issue like that, then that child becomes a perfect candidate for a bully to pick on and turn name calling into something else, much more serious, which then becomes a problem for the child and everyone else concerned.

If a child is encouraged to change whatever the bully has targetted, then the bully will consider that a success and target the same person with another taunt next week.  That doesn't sort out the problem, just perpetuates it.

Bullies pick on the weakest, just like animals in the wild - survival of the fittest and all that.  They don't pick on ALL the children in the class, just the vulnerable ones.  But when it comes to humans, then we want them all to not only survive, but grow into happy well balanced adults.  If a child isn't taught to deal with simple taunts (NOT serious bullying) at school, then they will find it very difficult when they join adults in the work place, who  seriously tease newbies relentlessly in some situations.  I've seen nobody say on this thread that serious bullying shouldn't be treated in a serious way.

But bullies DO pick on confident kids, or are you trying to say mine are not? because, believe me, they are lol.........the only reason the eldest took so much was because I tried to 'do the right thing' as things happened, it would have been far better if Id let him thump the bully in the first place.....the more this lad got away with, the worse it got, my son wouldnt fight back, so more took him on. Eventually, the bully hit him and he hit him back. no more problems with that one anymore.

I'd say your children are in an unusually severe situation and the answer now lies in the how the adults, predominately the school, deal with it.  Whatever they go through, though, the confidence you have taught them is bound to reduce the impact.

Well, I think that if a child has verbal bullying that is making them ill, the parent should go into school. The antibully policy is there to be used. One child at my sons school has been so badly tormented, the Police are assisting, and will take action should it continue. Sad fact the head cant run the school. She stands up for herself, and is critised for it by the school, but they had to address all assemblies to warm the pupils of what would happen should it continue.

calmstorm, I can hear your passion and frustration and we all have to make our own choices but all that I can say is that I wouldn't deal with the situation like that.

I was divorced when my daughter was 2 years old and I knew, because I only planned to work part-time (being a Mother was IMO the most important job that I would ever do) that the private education (that's another discussion! :) ) that I had planned wouldn't be an option.  So I drew a circle on the map to give a reasonable travelling distance from where I worked and visited all the schools with a good reputation.  I then bought my home within easy walking distance of what I considered to be the best school for my daughter.

She didn't have an easy childhood for various reasons, and she did have a particularly bad time changing from a small all girls grammar school to a large, mixed comp, which was still considered to be a life experience.  But I wouldn't have her at a school where you describe 200 children chasing one pupil!   I consider that to be even more than bullying and I would make alternative arrangements, whatever they might be.  But as you rightly say, we all do what we consider to be the best for our children. :)

val, you are so right. When my kids were very preschool, I looked at the schools in the area with the wide view, from nursery to junior to secondary. The junior school had a nursery and a fantastic reputation as a school, and i thought it would be ideal for them to go there, this school is a feeder for the secondary school. i thought it would be good for them to start at nursey and follow through, the friends thing etc as well as education. The secondary school has fantastic facilities and equipment and good ofsted reports. i thought I was setting them up for a good education. It was a ten mile round trip twice a day to the primary school ,but well worth it. The secondary school had some poor reports of bullying but the headmaster was firm and dealt with it. The year before my eldest started, the headmaster changed. moral at the school dropped, teachers, good teachers, have since left. I thought that, by following the rules, my son would be ok even when this one lad started picking on him. sadly, this was not the case. They minimise bullying, and the fights, lads only recently have had a broken collar bone and one a smashed jaw from fighting, refered to as 'minor skirmishes' by the head. His policy is to tell you if you don't like it, move your child. The kids are told by teachers that if they dont like it there they can move. This has had the effect that the smaller schools have had to cope with being over subscribed yet still taking from this school, plus a lot of kids from the local primarys whose parents dont want them to go there. I have moved my eldest now, I still have the youngest there, he has had the verbal nastiness which has caused him some problems, but i have not yet moved him, he has yr 8 tests this week, and i want him to make the decision, rather than me pushing him. however, i may yet make the decision for him as today he came home and later on told me someone has tried to goad him into fighting.

its good to see that someone else aside from me and my friends is taken aback by the chasing incident. The school is so used to this, they tried to minimise it! In fact, they were more annoyed that my son had dared to leave the school premises!

Some of us have ex husbands who would take us to court if we tried to move house and schools :)

I can't agree, my kids ahve never been bought designer gear, (unless it was on sale at a very good price).  I ahve never spent more than £20 on any pair of shoes for myself or kids.  woudl certainly consider more than £10 for most other items of clothign extortionate, though have been know to go as far as £20.

My family are Polish and there you really do ahve people in Povertya s the welfare state is practiaclly non existent.  If your not able to find keep a job you ahve to live off the charity of family.

People who come here to work do so not because they can live a better life here (they give up homes and families to house sahre in often cramped housing) so that they can send money home to family.

I know one gentleman in his 50's who was the regional manager for an Insurance firm that had bought into the Polish market,a nd then closed al their offices down.

He now works as a packer for a Yogurt making company.  He shares a flat with a freidn and they pay £300 a month in just rent each, so ahve to save hard to send money fhome to help their families.  If they loose their jobs they get nothing, as they aren't allowed to claim, which is the risk they take when they borrow money to get here.  These people get mimimum wage, so no fortunes to be made.

I have always spent quite a lot on their shoes, mainly because they have always had wide feet. So I always bought Clarkes. The 12 yr old is now 5'8'' and has a size 11 (adult)shoe. The older one is 5'6'' size 9-10. They still have wide feet, and i buy Rockport now because they are good value being a solid, strong leather shoe or boot, they are what they want and the added advantage is that they cost not much more than any standard shoe when I buy them online from a certain sports shop. This shop has all sorts of designer sports gear for all ages at very often less than half price. When it comes to their clothes, I do like good quality clothing, even if they have less, because it washes and wears longer and lasts. this is not always designer, as i find that is a lot of money for no substance. I am more than happy to do without myself to clothe them well. in fact, Im happiest in jeans or joggers, but thats me. i did the designer thing in the 80's, young free and single. We clothe our kids the best we can, be that charity shop, ebay, market, designer, whatever. Its a personal choice. :)

Its not just money though that makes people want to leave, and prefere other countries. Its the quality of life, not being afraid to be outside your own front door, friendly people, lets just say no chavs or chav mentality. fresh air and open spaces, and a quieter, less hectic way of life. Less taxes, being able to keep more of the money you earn, better schools, so much more. And the country keeps it that way by not letting in every chav chav and chav that would want to go and spoil it all.

Its the way that this country penalises success that I cannot stand. You do well, you pay more tax. You work hard and can afford a better car - you get taxed. You pay a childminder, your money gets taxed again. You spend it - taxed. Save it - taxed. Vote Lib Dem - you'll get taxed even more. Buy bigger house and leave it to your kids - more tax. Earn money - pay for legal representation.

Sit on your **** all day and claim benefits - no tax. Decide to sue the council for tripping over a paving slab - get free legal assistance. Get divorced - no legal fees. Commit a crime, get a slap on the wrist. Basically, you have LESS stress and less hassle by being a lazy unachiever than you do if you work hard. And that is very, very wrong.

Oh Chloe.........what a true and fantastic post! Very very well said

I have no problem supporting those who are truly in need. But the amount of scroungers that are bleeding this welfare state dry, fraudulantly claiming benefits, pretending to be ill and working and basically living off the state BECAUSE THEY CAN is what really, really irritates me And that would be my first job as PM :D

Edit to say: And that is why we are breeding a nation of unachievers with no ambition bar popping a sprog or two to drag down the social.

hurrah for Carla, vote Carla for PM.
You've summed up my pet hate and the extra addition to that is people who scam the system to get DLA and their 'disability' is self inflicted e.g. though drug or alcohol use and then they don't use the money to buy in services for themselves (i.e. the purpose of DLA) but squander it.

Someone recently remarked on how this country is referred to as Treasure Island.  Says it all really unless you were born and bred here.  My daughter told me recently that she gets upset when she thinks about having to come home (she's in Australia on a year's working visa).  As much as I miss her I wouldn't blame her for ditching this place as it is at the moment.  Am I just getting old and cynical and seeing the worst points or is really going down the pan?

Talking of lawyers and solicitors I was mortified on Sunday.  Had to take son to A&E as he had broken his nose.  After being seen we were given 3 advice leaflets on head injuries, broken noses and nose bleeds.  On the back of each leaflet the whole back space was taken up with "Been Injured?" and then freefone number and website address for compensation company.

No you're not Cheryls, there are many that would like to leave that I know, and a best friend and my sons godmother left this country with her husband and her mum last year to live in Aussie land. They absolutly love it, best thing they ever did she says. The good thing for my boys is that, when they are older and in the 'gap year' they can go over and stay with her, take a friend if they like, and use her home as a secure base and travel round the country a bit if they want! A working collegue of my husband daughter and son in law left about 12 months ago there too, they love it, say the lifestyle and people are far different from here. They have no intention of moving back. Shame really, after all there is no reason why this country should be the pits. Just how things have gone, and its such a shame.

Call me a great big cynic, but I can't help wondering if all this is just 'engineered' to get us to accept compulsory ID cards :rolleyes:  after all, the situation has been going on for years and years but no-one's really made a big fuss about it before - so why now?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

there are many ways in this country they make money and not all by selling there bodies etc,
there is quite a few areas know that if you want cheap labour for the day for example , builders etc they pull up in their transit vans early in the morning and the lads that are hanging around are asked if they want a days work and they get into the back of the van and go to work, the people then employing them pay pittance and they don't have to pay tax etc on these guy working,
of course it gets known this is going on so more and more people turn up each day looking for work at the pick up points, some get as little as 10.00 a day for labouring jobs.
whats more the goverment know this is happening and they don't seem to be that bothered about it, or if they are bothered why are they not doing anything about it,or maybe they are sorting it out but just keeping it quite like many things they keep quite about
carol

Cheryl, I think it really IS going down the pan...when we confront the scallies and burglars daily(YES DAILY!!) we see how much things have changed in the last 10 to 15 years. We are going to live in Greece(sorry if you all know this and no I aint braggin' it's a cheap 2 bed Bungalow!) in a couple of years, there they still have respect for people and their property, no break-ins, no crime to speak of, sun, sea sand and...ermm...ahh yes...a boat!!! LOL I've had enough! and we will be less well off going over there...but what the hey, can't think of living the next 20 to 30 years living here. The problem remains where if you aren't super rich or live in a nice neighbourhood then you're stuffed basically! Not that the rest of the community is a doss place, but the scallies infiltrate the ermm  middle classes now, buying houses with profit from drugs and other illegal activity and buy in reasonable areas and turn themselves into the neighbours from hell with quad and scrambler bikes, parties, kids that disrespect EVERYBODY, even their own parents...see I'm off on one already!! ENOUGH! All the best, Dawn

WOW, good luck with the move then! Agree with all you say about living here though, one day i would like to move, its just when. And to be honest where we live is not that bad ....yet.... but this country is going to the pits and it makes me so sad.

<<And the country keeps it that way by not letting in every chav chav and chav >>

Around here the chavs and chavettes are all home-grown!   I'd happily swap a hard-working immigrant family for some of the local born & bred "strong in the arm & weak in the head" natives .

So, Newfiedreams - you'll know what its like on the other side of the fence - as an immigrant :)

Margot

HA HA yeah! But we won't be relying on their handouts!(they don't have any!) :D I think they think we are a tad like lucky charms as we were at a new Restaurant opening in the village next to ours, by invitation I might add! :P when they won the World Cup....Ohh what a night!!! LOL :D Be nice to Newfie now, you never know when an invite to a holiday is coming your way!!! RFLAO :P :P :P

What i don't underestand is if (eveyone seems to agree) Australia and NZ are so much better, why doesn't our Government look to them for how to get out of this?

Sweden has the lowest crime, teenage pregs etc in europe (i think, if its not Sweden it's one of the other nordic ones) so why as a member of EU can't we learn from them?

Or is this too logical?! ;-)

I heard on the radio yesterday that france dont have a health and saftey exec. so if you injure yourself its your fault, which means  no compensation culture there! we should follow examples like that as opposed to USA all the time

Hmmmn...who said the grass is always greener on the other side?

Good for the French! (And that's not something I say every day! :D)