You are the one who makes personal insults - I can clearly remember you calling me sanctimonious - so now we're about equal.

Well lets hear your reasoned response to my post, dont try and change the subject dear.

Don't call me "dear" please, its patronising and sexist.

Ah, but you can call me a tosser...... 

But thats not patronising or sexist - its an opinion of you I have formed from you calling me sanctimonious over my concerns discussed with someone else regarding a puppy being overexercised that you decided to comment on, that actually had nothing to do with you.

When I was looking to get a second dog I was advised not to get another bitch, because when they fall out they tend to fall out for good, they bear a grudge and dont forget little incidents in the past.  Sound familiar?

And when you post on a message board i'm afraid that the topics become everybodys business. 

Back to my original post.  You have shown your colours by ignoring my points and calling me a tosser.

LOL - bitches falling out and never forgetting little incidents :D :D :D Yep, defintiely sounds familiar to me.

Bitches also tend to ignore those they have fallen out with, after putting them in their place, because their points are not worthy of further discussion.

"Their Points are not worthy of further discussion".  I shall take that to mean that you still have no answer to my original post.  But lets be as patronising as possible to try and divert attention away from this :)

Anyway, bed time, so i'm off.  Bye dear :) :)

Oh come on calling someone a tosser or dear , tim just ignore childish comments and remain with your head held high , dont argue im watching this space for what people have to say on hunting not arguing .

I am so confused as to the rights and wrongs of this issue. I am though, incredibly angry that the government wanting to split the country in this way. Why are they stopping at foxes if they are doing it to stop what they call 'cruelty' ?. Will they turn their attention to battery hens, transportation of animals, giving proper punishment to people who mistreat animals/pets, illegal import of exotics ?. Sorting out these problems can do nothing but good - but stopping fox hunting, well, I don't know. Why do this when it's going to cause such upset - I wonder what the agenda is.
Sorry if you feel I've gone off track a bit but I'd prefer Mr Blair to pull the country together, not split it.

Val.

ps - If he loves animals so much, what did he do with Humphrey, the No. 10 cat ?!!!

Well said Trevor! as for lady Dazzle I cant believe a pro hunt supporter moaning about double standards, what a laugh that is!!
Its OK for them to thump our policemen but cant cope with any violence against themselves
Its OK for them to break the law and carry on hunting after this ban( because that is what I hear from them all the time) but of course everybody else must.
All those peacefull rallys of the countryside alliance were involving thousands of country folk protesting about a multitude of rural issues but get a bunch of Hunt supporters and it turns nasty. Says a lot.
Amos
member of the rural/farming community. 

you huntsmen and women havent answered what ive said about the hounds have you .
You can reply with insults when someone comes up against your sick sport can you reply with the actual facts . what happens to hounds that dont make the grade ? or retire ? can hounds become pets ? I belive you huntsmen say they cant on recent news reports several said they cant . you sure thats a fact ?
On to horses what you hunts people do with these when they have no use ?

If they could become good pets, then think of the value that could have been made from those stolen beagles. Where is all the video footage of them leading normal pet-dog lives. The only one that was ever heard of again had been amateurly castrated (by an 'animal-lover' :rolleyes: ) and had his ears mutilated in an attempt to remove his ID. If it were possible to retrain them do you not think it odd that this hasn't been shouted from the rooftops? No, I'm afraid the deafening silence speaks for itself.

>what happens to hounds that dont make the grade ?

The same as happens to pet dogs that are unsuitable, through viciousness, etc.

lovely lady I am not sure if you have seen a foxhound close up or spent any time with them.  They are very large, very strong, very fit hunting dogs that bred to hunt and live in large packs.

One of the most common problems that appears on this and other boards is the lack of a reliable recall of their pet dogs.

The chances of most pet owners being able to EVER get a reliable recall from a foxhound are slim to non existent which may result in several consequences, not least the death of the dog.

They have also been reared on boiled porridge made up from fallen stock and dead horses which gives them a rather rank odour on top of their own musky smell and as they have been brought up outside are of course completely un house trained. 

Good intentions are not enough to rehome a foxhound I am afraid, the reality after the sentiment has worn off would drive most people to drink if not a one way trip to the vet.

Foxhounds are large, smelly, incredibly vocal, and would end up probably being incredibly destructive and difficult to walk as they are very powerful and not used to being on a lead!

No doubt a very few people COULD rehome SOME individuals but to pretend that the majority could ever settle down to the general run of the mill pet existence is to be naive in the extreme!

Get a bunch of anti's at a meet and they turn nastier!!!!

As it so happens I was at all of the peaceful rallies and there on Wednesday and no I don't condone violence against the policebut I can understand the frustrations of the minority who did resort to it.  The Countryside Alliance asked us all to be peaceful and the majority of us were but when faced with police in riot gear (as opposed to the marches previously when the police were laughing along with us marchers) some people felt antagonised and reacted violently.

and yes I am one of those who have signed the declaration stating that I will break the law to continue doing what I consider to be a necessity for the countryside to stay what it is, but then I am a realist and know that conservation is best done by eliminating the old and infirm animal to allow the fittest to survive and breed on to keep any typeof animal at its best. 

But as a law abiding citizen who has never stolen anything, has no previous police record, is proud of the fact that her children are all honest and hardworking, have never been on the dole, paid my taxes, etc. etc. it was a very difficult decision to make.  But I made it and I am pleased that I did!!!!!!!

I thought that as a law abiding citizen in a democracy the idea is you obey all laws, not only the ones you agree with or like.  There are many things that I would change or that I don't agree with, but I don't think that breaking the law is the right way to go.

because everyone has a limit of what they are prepared to put up with Fiona - if they didn't, we'd still have the poll tax.

Still not right to choose which laws suit you and which don't.

Fiona - we are never going to agree, so lets agree to disagree. I have my principles and you have yours. At least you debate yours sensibly - which is more than I can say for most :)

The news report I saw showed the police only changing into riot gear  AFTER they were pushed, a number of them were injured

Rozzer I am not sure if you have ever been present at the killing of an animal that meets the criteria for halal or kosher meat (both the jewish and the islamic method of slaughter are identical) or in fact present at the traditional method (stunning) however I can assure of you of several things.

The specialists who carry this function out for religious reasons have studied for some time, respect the animal (they pray over it prior to killing it) and use extremely sharp tools. 
They are also probably much more rigourous in the rearing of the meat specifically forbidding the practices that were followed in the UK et al that resulted in BSE etc.
Death in an abbattoir is not always instantaneous and is accompanied by panic because of the large amount of animals present etc etc etc

It may interest you to know that you have probably eaten meat prepared in this fashion because, a large percentage of Australian and New Zealand lamb is targeted for this market and so ALL meat is killed in this way in order that the meat is suitable for ALL destinations.

I would be interested to know what precise aspect of halal and kosher meat preparation is "inhumane" and why you think that other methods are not?

Tohme, I'm afraid I have seen for myself the halal killing of chickens, and it is no better than, and in many instances, worse than secular (for want of a better word) slaughter.

I've been aware for many years that ritually slaughtered meat is not marked as such in 'regular' shops, and personally find it outrageous. My freedom of choice has been denied me.

There is always a freedom of choice, it depends on where you buy your meat...................

From an independent butcher. It is anonymous.

That's what stopped me eating meat, nor knowing where it comes from, unfortunately I do not feel many of the large chains can be truly trusted

Well first of all i know a rescue who devotes there time to rehoming hounds i can provid photo's of these hounds in a normal home there great pets .
hounds that dont make the grade or retire arent pts there shot in the head . sad isent it these animal lovers think so much of there animals . i and many other rescue people have seen pictures of hounds eating other hounds ,
Are huntsmen animal lovers no . they enjoy innocent fox's being ripted up by blood thirsty dogs .why i have no idea i think there sick people .
Ok too many fox's . why not shoot them be humane and kill them. sorry would that be taking away the enjoyment of catching the fox

Yes, they're shot in the head, with a captive bolt gun (known as a humane killer, the same as the RSPCA use to destroy livestock) by their kennel master, on their own territory. Much kinder than abandoning a pet dog at the vet to be killed by strangers in a scary environment.

And that the hunt use to euthanise horses - because the vets here only use the lethal injection - which is simply not suitable for all horses.

so huntsmen breed dogs knowing they will kill them . thats not cruel is it .
they enjoy watching foxs being  ripted up  not cruel either.
so this is a sport that dosent mind those two facts and you want that to carry on . id like to now ask why ?

Hmmm we breed animals knowing we will kill them, for food, clothing, etc.

You are assuming people enjoy watching foxes ripped up; that is generally not the case; and if you have ever bothered to hunt you will know that very few people are near enough to see the kill (if one is made).

I respect the fact that there are lots of people who disagree with hunting, that is fine; don't go.  I don't like fishing, so I don't do it :D

I don't have a problem with others carrying out this pastime though

so you still dont mind the fact that fox's still are killed by hounds ive seen the pics even footage of "proud"huntsmen .
ok animals are used for  food ,fish are eaten but fox's killed for what . the pleasure of sick hunts people thats not a good enough reason to hunt sorry!
add the hounds and the horses into all of this and its a sport that needs to be banned . ok hounds will die but they will be shot sooner or later anyway by banning it now less dogs will die .

For goodness sake lovelylady ,a lot of people on here breed dogs, with the knowledge that when their quality of life through illness or injury or infirmity that they will be put to sleep. That is life.

I have personally had to have pts a number of dogs I have bred in the past it doesn't stop me breeding more.

To be honest to put myself in a hounds shoes I know what I would prefer when my working days were over, a quick painless death in a place I have always lived in, than being homed with some well meaning person in a strange environment, who doesn't understand my upbringing and needs, and then death at the end of that.

I bullet to the head is a very quick death, in fact I prefer that method for my horses.

On that same note if I were a fox, I think I would prefer a quick end by hounds, rather than a lingering one, chewing off my own foot if caught in a trap, or dying a lingering death after poisoning, or dying of gangrene and starvation when shot and injured.

What do you think happens in nature, when something is injured or ill or old it is most likely chased by a predator until it is caught and eaten, that is the way of the natural world.

:D

We agree on something then - to be killed quickly by a bullet is much kinder than to be killed by strangers (or a pack of dogs) in a scary environment (having been chased for ages)

lady dazzel i take it your "for hunting" sorry dont you like debating . dont take part . dont tell me to grow up  when you put proper decent points across ill listen to you , but with  your nasty tone i really cant be botherd with the likes of you .  ill feed you to the wolfs see how you would like it pfft prefer it to going to sleep and not waking up lol!

Come on, we've been debating this all day and it hasn't got personal until now (even though we all obviously have strong views).  Lets try to keep it polite everyone.

Fiona

yes your right fiona, Im not posting more on this for hunting thread , ive many contacts that are against it .they rescue these hounds . Im on the other side of hunting i have  lots of knowlege on the points ive raised there not stupid or childish there valid points to a sick sport .im an animal lover and im proud of that!

What do they actually rescue these hounds from?

If you ask me Tohme, they rescue them from a dignified end and transfer them into confusion and distress. 

I have seen some of these so called rescued trailhounds and more miserable ill suited creatures to their new environment I have yet to meet.

As you will notice I edited that part out almost as soon as I had posted it, as I felt it was too strong.

Don't have the temerity to tell me that I don't know how to debate!!!!!

You ask for answers I gave you answers

Lady dazzle,
I think it is a good job the police did have riot gear on or else a lot more would have been hurt by the mob. I am sure the police only wear riot gear when they expect it to be required and to say the hunt supporters were aggresive because the police were in riot gear is a bit rich.
When someone says 'I dont condone it but I understand the reasons it happened' well in my book that means you do condone it.
It is no good saying you are a law abiding citizen because you have just agreed to break the law. So if you break the law why cant everyone else? Dont you think that is double standards?
What example does that set for your 'honest' children? Do as I say not as I do?
Amos

The example it gives is that I will stick by my principals in life and not be bullied by a non democratic government intent on doing what ever they want to do, at the expense of the livelihood and traditions of their constituents.

I said I understood their frustrations but as a non violent person I do not condone their violence.

So is it OK for the rest of us to break the law if we feel strongly about something too?
Amos

That is your decision not mine

Well we will just have to agree to differ.
Goodnight
Amos

We have foxes where I live (in London) and there are no measures taken to control them, because environmental health officers believe that it would be pointless as there are so many and they have relatively short lives. So why is it considered necessary to cull foxes in the country?

I think that city people just find it so hard to understand why a living animal is torn to shreds and stands no chance of fighting off a pack of dogs- I know I do anyway

if they need to be culled why arent they shot?

Hi Lel,

There are plenty of country dwelling people who don't understand it either - and IMO many would be even further upset if they read several of the posts on this thread.

I abhor ALL *blood sports* as archaic but accept that certain species need to have human intervention with *humane* methods employed by professionals to control over population.  I have no intention of elaborating on or entering into further argument on the foregoing sentence at it has been repeatedly mis-read, misunderstood and mis-quoted;  the "clues" are *there* :-)

Slightly OT, it was suggested on a similar thread that TB et al should have a link to responses forwarded to him portraying the strength of feeling on the Ban and that thread as with this would IMO do pro-hunters no favours at all.  Even those farmers who have (perhaps) suffered great losses to their live stock and would be justified in seeking *professional* assistance in numbers control will be tarred with the same brush - surely something which is to the over all detriment of any need for genuine population control.

Fortunately many have kept a civil tone in their replies to posters they disagree with but several have repeatedly referred to foxes as being "manky", "mangy", "nasty" etc etc - basically despised.  This only gives credence to the perception that they "enjoy" the digging out, lengthy pursuit during acute fear and exhaustion and eventual shredding of a fox as "sport" as opposed to "population control" and that animal suffering is not just condoned but actively promoted if it is directed at what "they" regard as a "despicable" creature.

Likewise, uncontrolled outbursts by certain of  the "same usual suspects" on *both sides* of this debate which are rude, sarcastic and make totally unwarranted personal attacks on people make much of what is written lost.  It reads like a discussion infiltrated by yobs who have more interest in instigating an argument for arguments sake and twisting points made by their personal opposition into competitive intimidation.

I think it unlikely that anyone seriously interested in studying these threads to gain an insight into strength of opinion and variations within those opinions would read them for long.  A genuine query raised, - regardless of which view was held -  replied to by insults and followed up by a further (often wordless) post consisting of sniggering icons would not inspire the interest of anyone with an education.

Teri

Well said Teri !

You echoed my thoughts on this thread entirely ! :)