Appeasement occurs when one individual is under mental distress and is trying to ease the tension.

Exactly, it really is that simple Adam, repeating the same stuff over again doesn't make it any more true and you keep not answering questions or adressing the points raised, I fear because you can't because you don't know enough to do so.

if pr is so effective why can't all dogs be trained reliably off lead with it?

That is probably down to the trainer and the time and effort put in from puppyhood, those early puppy training classes are essential if you have no experience, following through with other classess onwards, KC bronze, silver, gold are all excellent for those with no experience to learn how to connect with their dog and teach with praise and reward.

Certainly food and a clicker is cheaper than an e collar!

What a bazaar statement, so people use praise and reward because an e collar is more expensive. :-D Now you've lost the plot!

Let me tell you about the different methods of training a dog. Let's compare it to something simple like a child learning science.

First teacher connects with his pupils really well, gets to know them all, shows an interest, makes lessons fun and is patient and kind and praises the children when they do something well, the child enjoys the class and really likes the teacher and is learning so much due to this.

Second teacher just does things by the book as taught, doesn't really connect with the child and is monotone in their teaching, the child is bored, drifts off and loses interest in science.

Third teacher shouts or smacks a childs hand with a ruler, the child pays attention alright but hates the lesson, but through fear continues and does well, however the spirt of the child is eventually broken.

Now teacher one will get the best results, teacher two will probably fail, however the pupil is still rounded and themselves.
Teacher three in breaking the spirt as in this case with a dog does not have a rounded pupil when the spirit is broken the character is unsound which means the dog will drift from submissive and well behaved to becoming angry and defensive they can change at any given time. This is what Karen speaks of in mopping up the damaged goods after the e-collar and negative training has done it's business.

You can not say that you have a sound dog trained in this way, character and temperament of an animal are more important than it doing as it is told by a quick fix, you have to think of what is happening to the mind.

That is probably down to the trainer and the time and effort put in

I've been following this debate and have stayed out till now, but Carrington, you are so right! It has taken nearly a year of training every day with my lurcher to get a recall I can trust again(he was an angel puppy but an evil Kevin!). I imagine though that would not be 'an acceptable time frame' and perhaps Adam may think me cruel for restricting where I let my dog off lead during that time?
Time and again I have read Adam's words "acceptable time frame" and its making me furious. What is an acceptable time frame and who is it acceptable for (the impatient owner/trainer I imagine!)? It's such an ambiguous phrase and in the context used totally pointless, surely the timeframe is down to the individual dog?
I think a lot of people's expectations of how quickly they can train a dog/puppy are very high these days, and I think that is partly why people buy into 'Ceaser's Way' and electric collars etc. they appear to be a 'quick fix' without the effort.

Re video

I see a very enthusiastic dog who's attentive to the trainer. Very little appeasement just very keen dog.

Re yelp. When does that occur, during the side commands right? All I could see/hear was the dog making a grunt of effort when he jumped from one side to the other. My cat food trained aglity collie will make that same grunt when attempting a tricky jump. He's never worn an e collar.

Adam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC_OKgQFgzw

Attentive (and cute) dog showing appeasment body language (like the one in the other vid) trained with a clicker.

Adam

No there was a yelp not a grunt, both Lindsay and myself heard it as I'm sure others did.  That is exactly why using these collars is dangerous because usually the person has no idea about body language and the fact that you think the body language of the dogs you have posted videos to in different situations (one a very young puppy and others an adult dog) is similar types of body language just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject TBH.  I really find it quite staggering that you claim to be a professional and can't see the difference!

I just hope with your lack of knowledge and adamant that you know best attitude that you don't do too much damage to dogs that deserve better - I fear that several will suffer uneccessary stress and fear at your hands which is just incredibly sad :-(

Re video

I see a very enthusiastic dog who's attentive to the trainer. Very little appeasement just very keen dog.

and this is where we get the lies and misconceptions.

Adam, that dog is not a keen dog - it's desperate to avoid the shock/stimulus!!!! That is why it appears so eager - the whole lesson it has learnt is based on escape/avoidance. You can see many dogs just like this on shock collar videos.

And the apparent "eagerness" (ie, desperation to avoid the shock) shows just how benign the shock is.

Sorry Adam, but you are taking the Michael, now :(

and what makes me so very angry is that any of that in the video could be taught with reward methods/clicker, etc and you get eagerness which is genuine. Not fake and dishonest.

Lindsay

.