> Also there have been Reports of a Number of Cavaliers Whelping Deformed Puppies ,could this be due to MRI Scanning .

Well my new puppy is from two generations of scanned dogs & the whole litter are perfectly normal externally. My scanned dog is fine some 5 years after he was scanned(BTW I've two dogs who have SM & had another who died last year)

> To Timsar we do know now how many Cavaliers are suffering from SM .

Do we really ? How many is it then ? Where do you get your information from ?

> The Witch- Hunting has been going on in the Cavalier Breed since it first appeared,by those whose aim it seems to be to get rid of the Cavalier Breed

Really so I am trying to rid the world of Cavaliers yet I'm getting another one ? That's really logical(not)

My concern re the MRI scanning of cavaliers is this :

If only those cavaliers that scan clear are then supposed to be used for breeding, I should think the gene pool will be tiny, as it is thought that most cavaliers are to some degree affected by SM....

This small gene pool may ultimately help to erradicate SM from the breed, but you can guarantee that another hereditary health issue will crop up as a result.

I wonder just how many cavaliers out there are completely free of any hereditary eye and heart problems, as well as being clear of SM ?

I am in favour of MRI scanning but I do have grave concerns as to how future cavalier generations will be affected by a much smaller gene pool.

My new puppy has an "open pedigree"the bitches breeder has always done all the health tests available & my puppies breeder is following suit.

There are other Cavaliers that can be considered for breeding, such as the Dutch dogs, whose owners are far more open & enthusiastic about improving the health of the breed than some in this country(same goes for the Americans)

Why I have asked this question , because for a Full Body MRI Scan ,the Cavaliers will have a General Anaesthetic ,which will last for around an hour to find out if they have SYRINGOMYELIA or not

The Mini MRI Scans only give Superficial Information asto whether they have SM or not .

There has recently been reports of Cavaliers whelping Puppies who were grossly deformed .

Should Research be carried out to find out if this could have been a result of being MRI Scanned.?

Thank you SUZ1985 for replying to my query .

You will understand ,it's the length of time that Cavaliers could have the GA as well as the MRI SCAN that I wonder about.

Bet Hargreaves

Although an hour-long GA carries its own health risks (as does a 5-minute GA) there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's linked to birth deformities. Were these cavaliers in whelp when they were scanned?

> You will understand ,it's the length of time that Cavaliers could have the GA as well as the MRI SCAN that I wonder about.
>

Unless you are MRI scanning a pregnant bitch I can't see why MRI would have any bearing on deformities, rather this is an issue with the particular pregnancy and pairing.

I have spoken at length to my vet who X rays my dogs for HD about sedation v GA for X raying. She is a very very experienced vet & has considered sedation for X rays, but her research has shown that a GA is actually safer & easier to reverse that sedation & the method she has chosen is actually cheaper than using sedation so it is not for more profit.

I am guided by vets I trust & having had no problem for over 40 years. Our first Cavalier was hip scored & never had any problems afterwards.

I also spoke at length to Geoff Skerritt  before having our boy scanned, about sedation & GA & he too was of the opinion that GA is a safer method.

I will be getting back to both vets about your allegation that MRI scanning has caused deformaties in Cavalier puppies & that GA also has affected in utero Cavalier puppies even though the MRI & GA occurred before the bitch was mated(well I presume this is the alleged case as bitches & dogs should be MRI scanned before mating)

BTW it would be nice to have an answer to my previous questions

Moonmaiden ,

Please read my Post .

I AM NOT MAKING ALLEGATIONS that MRI Scans are causing Deformed Puppies .

I am asking if any Research has been on those Cavalier Bitches asto whether MRI Scans could cause this.

I don't know ,and if no Research has been carried and a Veterinary Paper written onthis subject ,no-body is in a Position asto whether it could happen or not.

If you mention that I have said that MRI Scanning is causing Puppy Deformaties ,I will be seeking Legal Advice

Bet Hargreaves

As MRI scanning is used for humans I would imagine a great deal of research has been conducted.

To Moonmaiden again ,I should have said ,that the SM Figure of 408 MRI Scanned Cavaliers came from Dr Rusbridge and her mother Penny Knowler .in their Autumn 2007 News-Letter .

I dont know whether that would be UK Cavaliers or World Wide.  Presumably they would be from 1997 when the Veterinary Profession first had use of MRI Scanners

Bet Hargreaves

To Isabel ,

I dont know about this ,are Humans given a General Anaesthetic or Sedated when being MRI Scanned.

Bet Hargreaves

I think anaesthetics have been pretty thoroughly researched too not to mention millions of case histories and yes, some humans ie head injuries will be scanned while anaesthetised.

> I should have said ,that the SM Figure of 408 MRI Scanned Cavaliers came from Dr Rusbridge and her mother Penny Knowler .in their Autumn 2007 News-Letter .

So you misquoted & stating that the number of Cavalier with SM is known is actually a false statement.

You see I have had three Cavaliers with SM, two diagnosed by symptoms & the other by MRI scan, they all gave blood for the initial research. So the figures that anyone might tout as being the number with SM is out by at least my two

>I AM NOT MAKING ALLEGATIONS that MRI Scans are causing Deformed Puppies .

Bet, the wording of your posts certainly suggest that you believe there might be a link between MRI scanning and birth deformities; otherwise why would you say:

>There has recently been reports of Cavaliers whelping Puppies who were grossly deformed .
>Should Research be carried out to find out if this could have been a result of being MRI Scanned.?

> Please read my Post .
>
> I AM NOT MAKING ALLEGATIONS that MRI Scans are causing Deformed Puppies .
>
> I am asking if any Research has been on those Cavalier Bitches asto whether MRI Scans could cause this.
>
> I don't know ,and if no Research has been carried and a Veterinary Paper written onthis subject ,no-body is in a Position asto whether it could happen or not.
>
> If you mention that I have said that MRI Scanning is causing Puppy Deformaties ,I will be seeking Legal Advice

I am trembling as I type this as I should obviously be in awe of you & your obvious deep knowledge of SM. I presume you have lived with a dog with SM ? Most people who haven't don't really know how it affects the poor dogs life. How are you going to know if I put your er queries to anyone ? have you a tap on my phone, or a close friendship with my X ray vet or Prof Skerritt ?

What if a deformed puppy is born to a unscanned bitch-what would that be put down to ? Nature ? Malformations of in utero puppies can be caused by many things & if the causes were known it could also prevent similar deformities in human babies.

If you are writing of Gastroschisis which in humans occurs more frequently in women who have had an STD or UTI in early pregnancy & also the younger the mother the more likely this defect will occur. No mention of the mother's having had GA's or MRI scans before pregnancy is mentioned in any study that I have come across both on & off the internet(researched it because a close friend had a baby born with this condition & before you ask no she had never had an MRI or GA in her life)

You might find this site useful, although it is human related, it does give an insight into the causes of "birth defects"in neo natal puppies

MRI & GA before mating are not mentioned here. A few quotes from the article:

A major contributor to congenital defects is the inappropriate use of drugs during pregnancy. Drugs that one wouldn't automatically suspect of having such dire side-effects include some antibiotics, deworming or antiparasitic compounds (such as Albon and Flagyl), antifungals given orally, and even some diarrhea treatments.

There are infectious agents (bacteria, viruses, parasites) that can trigger developmental defects. Among these are both types of Canine Parvovirus, the traditionally recognized type 2 manifesting disease as hemorrhagic diarrhea, and type 1, also known as the Minute virus. Canine Adenovirus is another one recognized as teratogenic. As far as parasites, toxoplasmosis is a disease condition that frequently results in defects.

Nutritionally, the most common resultant defect seen may be cleft palates. However, it is important to recognize that cleft palates can result from other causes as well, such as genetic, and use of medications during pregnancy. It has been widely observed that certain breeds have higher prevalence of cleft palates. This is generally associated with brachycephalic breeds such as Boston terriers, and French bulldogs. The nutrient usually involved is folic acid, or folate, a B vitamin

Congenital defects occur in every breed, and every breeder will have some show up in their kennel. This is normal. However, you can minimize this occurrence by feeding a diet specifically formulated for breeding, breeding animals that have been vaccinated regularly, dewormed regularly, are healthy and not administering any drugs during pregnancy unless advised by your veterinarian. Good record keeping can help determine what occurrence of birth defects is within normally expected levels, and what is excessive. It can also help pinpoint any inbreeding issues, genetic predisposition, or inadvisable matings.

A friend of mine had to have a GA whilst she had an MRI scan because she freaked out when they tried without or with light sedation. Her daughter who was conceived & born afterwards is a perfectly healthy young lady now

>The Witch- Hunting has been going on in the Cavalier Breed since it first appeared,by those whose aim it seems to be to get rid of the Cavalier Breed

>Really so I am trying to rid the world of Cavaliers yet I'm getting another one ? That's really logical(not)

You haven't answered this question yet

I will wait to find out asto whether any Research has been carried out on our Cavalier Breed to find out if there are any Lasting Effects from MRI Scanning '

Also it has just been put on another List,that some Cavaliers who were MINI MRI Scanned in the Neck Region as is done ,were discovered to have a Syrinx further down on the Spine .

If some MINI MRI Scans are not giving a True SM Picture ,then will Dr S Blott's Research on her EBV Project be being put into jeopardy ,because it is depending so much on MRI information.

Should some thought now be being given asto what Type of MRI Scans will be beneficial to Dr S Blott,since the future of the Cavalier Breed depends on her Research .

Bet Hargreaves

Moonmaiden ,I will now finish this just by saying ,have you not heard about the Press publishiing reports that Cavaliers have Exploding Brains, if that is not Witch Hunting I dont know what is.

Will the Breed ever Recover from this Lie ,time will only tell .

This is what the Public will only think about when Cavaliers are mentioned ,

Their Brains are Falling out of their Heads ,and have Exploding Brains.

Does that answer your Witch Hunting Question

Bet Hargreaves

> I will wait to find out asto whether any Research has been carried out on our Cavalier Breed to find out if there are any Lasting Effects from MRI Scanning '

How long are you prepared to wait?  If nothing has arisen out of the research for human use, the bulk of which I am sure was conducted on animals, there seems no more likelyhood of such specific research than into the dangers of feeding sprats to Cavaliers.

>have you not heard about the Press publishiing reports that Cavaliers have Exploding Brains, if that is not Witch Hunting I dont know what is.

Hyperbole (such as your example) in the tabloid press is one thing; witch-hunting is trying to find individuals to blame for something. Of course, in all breeds (and cavaliers are no exception), the breeders who don't test for known breed conditions will bear the brunt of the flak. When an ostrich has its head in the sand, its backside is very vulnerable!

The Press must have got their information from some-body .they have had some-thing to go on .

They would'nt have made such a Slanderous Statement up.

Any-way if the Cavalier Breed can survive all this ,as I said if  this is what the Public now believe about Cavaliers ,the harm has been done.

I am not going into Breeder Bashing ,I have been a Cavalier Pet Owner for around 30 years ,had many Tears because of the Heart Trouble in the Breed,but so many Cherished Memories of our Long Lived Cavalirs

So I dont wallow in the Doom and Gloom that is being spread about the Cavalier Breed at the Moment.

Bet Hargreaves

Ladies,
I sent this as a PM to a fellow CD member a day or so ago but i think it is worth posting it openly:

"I dont know if you know Bet H.
She goes from forum to forum pouring out the same old sensationalist statements, usually posing as a question which she seldom seems to read the answer to.
She stirs people up repeating the phrases again and again and then accuses everyone else of slating Cavaliers.
I just wish she would put a sock in it as there must be no-one in the UK who hasn't read Bet's 'Tuppence lived to 19' or 'exploding brains' posts which she accuses everyone else of stirring up.
We all want to show a positive picture of Cavaliers especially as many are singing from the same hymn sheet regards comprehensive health testing.
No matter what you write - you will only get a stock answer and she will flood this forum with posts."

And so it has come to pass.... In the DW forum there were nearly 400 posts on this subject, the majority by this person and she accuses others of being sensationalist!!

Most forums completely ignore her now and she wanders off...if we dont she will flood this forum :-(

>The Press must have got their information from some-body .they have had some-thing to go on .

I personally have never seen anything in any of the media that cavaliers have 'exploding brains'. Perhaps you could give a link? What is known fact is that some cavaliers have a problem with their brains which can cause them great pain, and that sadly many breeders are ignoring this. These are the people doing such harm to the breed.

>Moonmaiden ,I will now finish this just by saying ,have you not heard about the Press publishiing reports that Cavaliers have Exploding Brains, if that is not Witch Hunting I dont know what is.

Nope

> have you not heard about the Press publishiing reports that Cavaliers have Exploding Brains, if that is not Witch Hunting I dont know what is. >
> Will the Breed ever Recover from this Lie ,time will only tell .
>
> This is what the Public will only think about when Cavaliers are mentioned

Yes the press have to get it from somewhere....

Just Googled Bet's standard 'witch hunt' phrases, the one she accuses of everyone using and destroying our breed..... the first hits are all Bet's quotes. No one but no one is perpetuating these stories more than Bet.

Yes but I seem to be the only one who has the guts to put my name to what I write .

By the way Moonmaiden ,I do know Mr SKerritt , I have sent him Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers with Health Problems.

If you dont want to know about Tuppence and about the other 2,000 ages and names  of Long Lived Cavaliers I ,have collected  there are others who do.

By the way ,have you done any-thing like that for the Cavalier Breed.

Bet Hargreaves.

I volunteered to take part in medical research and was in an MRI scanner for the best part of three hours with no adverse effects. I was not sedated nor did I have a GA. The scanner is perfectly safe and does not use radiation like x-rays, so in effect is safer I would have thought.

>> By the way ,have you done any-thing like that for the Cavalier Breed.

No me I've done nothing so wonderful as that.(BTW the dog that mine are/were line bred to is on your list(lived until he was 15 +)sadly he is also behind all three of my dogs with SM & the one who died early with MVD-Grandfather to that one & the 11 1/2 year old that had MVD & SM-half brothers)all my dogs are /were by heart screened normal & eye screened normal dogs out of similar bitches

I don't claim to have done anything I am a nobody in the Cavalier world, I'm not on any committees & because I went public about my MRI'd dog's SM status I had it made perfectly clear to me that I was not welcome in the showring or anywhere near the Cavaliers at shows. Two honest ladies in the breed were even told I was telling people they were deliberating breeding from affected dogs & keeping it secret, when in fact the total opposite was the truth. I was quoted at spreading this at shows I hadn't even attended. I have allowed all my dogs to donate blood for the initial research & was told by the researchers, that the samples went to, that it would be very interesting as the dogs were all so closely bred to a certain dog & no samples had been provided before from his bloodline

I also have Border Collies, unlike the Top Cavalier breeders & people like yourself, Border Collie people are exceptionally honest & as soon as a condition is diagnosed research is started. This is why the Border Collie has more DNA/clinical tests that most other breeds. For example Glaucoma has just been diagnosed in 3 or 4 Border Collies( in the world not just the UK)already research has started into the cause & also the extra eye test is being offered @ Border Collie club events. They do not witch hunt nor do they panic, they fund research & provide samples from affected dogs & clinically test all breeding stock before breeding is considered.

If only the Cavalier breeders were so honest & open. No one in their right minds sets out to breed a dog with a life threatening condition-like TNS, CL, SM etc, but they do need to be honest & open, not just with the breed, but to the outside world as well.

> , I have sent him Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers with Health Problems.

He has my dog's pedigrees too(but they didn't come via you) & his thoughts were that looking at the amount of inbreeding to one particular dog that if one of the dogs had SM the likelihood is that the others will have also, this is also the conclusion of other researchers

What is it about the fact that one of your dogs lived into it's late teens that is so special, so did a mongrel I had & she had a multitude of genetic conditions, my first BC lived into her late teens & she too had health problems(her heart)-she was born in 1970 & died over 16 years later. did you breed from her & all her offspring live equally as long ? Do all the dogs on your list have equally long lived perfectly health offspring & their offspring etc etc if they don't then the data is does not serve any real purpose for research purposes, my MRI scanned dog is fit & healthy, has a normal health & eyes & outwardly has nothing at all wrong with him & doG willing will continue to do so for a long time, he is now 7 1/2 years old. My other Cavalier had also a clear heart & eyes & is 8 1/4 years old.  If you haven't followed up on the dogs recorded on your list's offspring & their offspring for several generations the information only shows that these dogs lived a long time, nothing else. Perhaps you now need to go back to your list & research the followers to all the dogs included on it to the present day-now that would be useful.

I never knew I was hated so much.

I will just say though that ,SM is Not confined to the Cavalier Breed ,it is in other Small Breeds as well.

I gave SM figures for SM in Cavaliers from Dr C Rusbridge,but Dr S Blott who is Researching MVD and SM ,at the Animal Health Trust ,here in Britain ,has also said that SM figures could be Biased since they are Based on Clinical Cases of Cavaliers with SM seen by Neurologists .

The reason I mentioned the List of Long Lived Cavaliers that I had collected ,was because Professor Michell at the AHT used them in his Research to find if Larger Breeds of Dogs were Living longer than Smaller Breeds .
His conclusion ,was Smaller Breeds were Living Longer.

Bet Hargreaves

>I never knew I was hated so much.<

Sorry did I miss something? I have lost the plot with this bit of this thread. Why would you think you are hated? As I see it it would seem that other members are expressing views as are you, and while these ideas put forward from other members and yourself may not agree on all points, I have found members here to be lreally nice and willing to listen and in some cases even take on board new ideas which opposed their original starting point.

Please do not take everything personally, if we do not debate openly we become a bunch of yes men and yes women who learn nothing and do not progress and then the breeds are really in trouble! ;-)

Yes Polly , some of the comments made were sure a bit below the belt as saying goes and vicious to me.

I will debate my thoughts with any-body ,but the remarks I was receiving were not what I would call debating .

Bet Hargreaves

MRI's are only done under sedation if a patient really needs to have it done and it to claustrophobic to undergo one without it, so no GA's etc. are not the norm. for a patient having one in people.

> some humans ie head injuries will be scanned while anaesthetised.

i should imagine some sedation to as a lot of people get a bit freaked during the proceedure

There has just been a Veterinary  Paper Published on the Pros and Cons about Sedation and GA on Animals.

Bet Hargreaves

I am locking this thread as it has gone off topic and is becoming unwieldy in length.