i thought it was a well cover tv progamme,
onthe subject where thing are being sweep under the carpet from some breeders.that are not tell what problems they have in their breed or lines.
that why more of us are going aboard to mate or bring in new stock with new blood line,i am glad that one of the dogs that i have from sweden has pass all his test and more than the uk testing.

Very upseating seeing those poors dogs suffer like that mostly I am shocked and appauled at the Cav breeder who got BIS at that Club Show with her dog that had sired 26 litters after he was diagnoised! Most of those puppies have gone to pet homes who's poor owners may have to face going through what is the most awful conditition and so horriable to witness the worst I have ever seen in a dog. I am disgusted with her actions.

Something does need to be done I think the KC are trying as are good breeders and breeds that have health co-ordinators they are making an effort. Health test should be inforced it does make sense but they completely missed out breeds who do and are health testing there are quite a few now. This was very one sided though and they totally left out Puppy Farmers the blame was going to breeders who show dogs, Puppy Farmers are a massive problem and contribute greatly to health problems.

> Puppy farmers would then need  to conform (That would be a miracle as things stand at the moment)

It would be a miracle.  Many do not use the KC registration already.

The maker of the programme couldn't have lived on a council estate in the 60s and 70's, she'd have seen plenty of inbreeding going on right outside her door (and that was just the dogs!)

While some of the points about certain breeds having poor construction and health problems were valid, I felt it was significant that most of the 207 breeds got no mention at all.  The tone of the programme was such that if there was a chance of including a breed it would have been done.

Re the vets comments about pedigree breeds being so unhealthy,

How many dog owners with healthy dogs regularly take their dogs to the vets to have their good health confirmed?  At up to £30 for a consultation it would be folly and fairly pointless.  After all we don't get up in the morning feeling wonderfully fit and healthy and think 'I must go to the doctor as I feel so well'  and that's without having to pay a fee!

Re compulsory health testing before breeding  - I'm all for it, but in many cases the tests haven't even been perfected to a stage of reliability, so how would that be enforceable?

The programme was blatantly biased - the words Hatchet Job came to mind :(

> So I do think people need to be aware and without programmes of this type it is difficult to get to the masses.
>

I agree people should be aware of the need to buy as healthy a dog as possible and there are definately issues to be addressed in how some breeds are bred but I would question the value of an over sensationalised programme like this compared to the ongoing and knowledgable work of the KC in funding research and steering the Breed Clubs over these issues.  It's this idea that Jemima seems to have that she is some revolutionary pioneer that irritates me.

A good point about taking healthy dogs to the vets, mine 2, 3 and 9 years old never at the vets apart from an ear infection (once which was due to my lack of thorough cleaning, which is now done on a regular basis) and boosters/wormers etc.

Yorkshire has quite a few inbreds lol, (speaking from the lancashire side) ;-)

Just watched this with OH - we had quite a few arguments I can tell you :-)

I did think it was one sided but could see the argument a few of the points being made. I definitely don't think Crufts or any dog show for that matter is a "Parade of mutants!" - how silly for him to say that!! Don't agree with the Cavalier breeder who bred from her dog knowing it had a problem - I understand that there are 2 possible outcomes to the disease (wont attempt to spell it) but even having been diagnosed with this would have put me off from using him at stud if I was the breeder...a bit of an eye opener....and isn't 34 litters or whatever it was a bit excessive or is this "the norm"??

What the makers of this programme need to do now is a through investigation into puppy farmers and backyard breeders - those who purposefully breed for money WITHOUT giving a second thought to health, welfare of the dogs etc. I am sure the general public would be much more horrified at something like this. I remember going back perhaps 10yrs (?) ago, the News of the World did an investigation into  puppy farming and it was excellent....they went undercover to several puppy farms. We need a TV programme like that to educate further!!!

Oh and by the way, Mark "Mr I Don't Agree With Pedigree Dogs" Evans owns a Labrador and a Golden Retriever - I wonder if he thinks they are awful and riddled with diseases ????

The Nazi stuff was so ludicrous !!!! TO RIGHT!!

totally wrong the way this was filmed i think was all one sided , not saying their aint problems with some dog breeds but surley their more breeders if not all breeders who try to breed out the bad things these dogs can have i mean im not a pro but i thought that was the point ,
and as for breeding mum and son i really dont think thats right and iv never known anyone whos done it.
BAD OF THEM ALSO FILMING THAT CAVERLIR OWNER WHO WON BEST OF BREED I THINK THATS NASTY AND BLOODY RUDE OF THEM the sneeky questions they bloody got a cheak putting women on the spot like that very low down dirty thing to do,
thats just my laymans point of view,
im happy with my breeds and my pup and their pedigrees overall i belive my dogs in perfect health and has been breed very well indeed and i did great at choosing the right champ stud for my girl giving her an absolutely wonderfull potentially champ and his fantastic (ok im byest he's my baby and his wonderful ;-)
they end up banning the cruffs and kennel club same way they did about fox hunting,
b**** do gooders y dont they worry about the baby boy chicks that get slatered cos theyll never lay an egg,
and as for the RSPCA worried about the Alsations legs are they ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DONT MAKE ME LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
women on my road has had a huge alsation 4 5 years tTHE DOG NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER GOES OUT THE DOOR!! I REPOTED HER COS THE DOG WAS HOWLING FOR 2 DAYS AS THE WOMEN WENT AND LEFT IT ALONE THEY CAM TAPED THE DOOR UP FEED THE DOGG THU THE DOOR WITH ICE CUBES AND BISCUTS KNOWING THEY DOG WAS ALONE AND CHECKING ON IT AND THE TAPED DOOR FOR THE NXT 2 DAYS , WE PRAYED THEYD FORCE ENTRY N GET DOG OUT BUT COS IT WAS A SUNDAY NIGHT THEY STILL GAVE THE WOMEN TIME TO GET BACK AND WOULD COME BACK ON MONDAY THEY DID AT 7 PM MONDAY AFTER DOGS BEEN LEFT IN ITS OWN PEE AND POOP FOR 5 DAYS NOW THEY GAVE WOMEN A TALKING TO AND LEFT HER WITH THE DOG TO THIS DAY NO ONE HAS SEEN THE DOG YOU HEAR IT HOWLING BUT IT STILL NEVER GOES OUT A HEAD AT THE DOOR IS ALL YOU'LL EVER SEE OF IT AS SHES LEAVING ALONE MY HEART BLEEDS I CRY WEN I HEAR IT HOWLING AND RSPCA DOING NOTHING,
SORRY ITS SO LONG IM MAD HAVE HAD MY RANT ,XX

> maybe the general public are ill informed, because programmes that are going to be on tonight are going to be watched and believed,

Come on we must have a TV producer on here somewhere. Show Joe Public the truth.

I was so upset seeing the boxer. Having had  a dog with epilespy, bright lights, restraining and shouting , no wonder the poor little chap had a second seizure. That was the cruelest thing !!

Whilst I agree with several of your point, chelzeagirl and naturally everyones blood is raised over this may I politely point you to this post and say I have to agree :-)

I would also like to know how they know that mongrels live longer than pedigrees?   We have an almost 17 year old Pomeranian who has never been to the vets in her life except for her vaccinations when younger.  Most of our Pom's live to 16.  I have a Spanish Water Dog who is 15 in October and again fit and well and only ever been to the vets 3 times in her lifetime!!

Think the KC could do with something being on their system where we could inform them of a dogs death so that the true picture could be seen?

Our almost 17 year old Pom isn't even on the list when I go on my breeders bit with the KC on the internet.

And being filmed can't have helped him either :-( - thats what I was thinking while I watched it.

The KC did do a health survey recently, if you remember, of a good number of dogs, I forget just how many, so the information on pedigrees does have a base but I know of no such survey of mongrels so who can say?

Isabel I am impressed,
Sorry Chelsea girl no offence, but I found it difficult to understand what you said. Calm down and write a bit slower, as I need to read  and listen slowly something to do with age LOL

This was very one sided though and they totally left out Puppy Farmers the blame was going to breeders who show dogs, Puppy Farmers are a massive problem and contribute greatly to health problems.

Exactly!

Just what I was thinking while watching this very uneducated and sensationalistic programme.

However I was genuinely shocked and disgusted with the cav breeder (and the breed club as a whole) who were quite happy to breed from a dog with syringomyelia.

A poster pointed out earlier about different strains/forms of this disease. Surely it is better to breed from unaffected dogs, than those that have the disorder yet are 'okay'(as such)?

ok im guessing  that i got a little carried away  please excuse me while i go and a make a cup of Camomile tea and reflect for a moment sorry if i offended anyone x
god your all so composed i need to learn that!!

>Having had  a dog with epilespy, bright lights, restraining and shouting , no wonder the poor little chap had a second seizure. That was the cruelest thing !!

Couldn't agree more.  However, if you wanted a dog to have a fit for the cameras...  :( :( :(

Pugnut, i bet you had harsh words with the tv whilst that was going on, they painted a bad portrait of your breed and others i bet you will all be annoyed, but also there was nothing about the ridgebacks and that they are sinus tested and shouldnt be bred from if they are affected.

>but also there was nothing about the ridgebacks and that they are sinus tested and shouldnt be bred from if they are affected.

And therein lies the bias, very little of the known health tests done by responsible breeders was mentioned at all, after all, why mention something that will interfere with the tone of the programme?

The programme was blatantly biased - the words Hatchet Job came to mind

I didn't think it was a hatchet job. I think that there is a problem and breeders need to recognise that and do something about it and far too many don't! I don't particularly agree with breeding for a look and I do think that many of the breeders came across as indifferent to the health difficulties because they thought the 'look' of the breed was paramount (the breeder with the bassets comes to mind because I actually thought that the old picture of the dog was preferable to the current look, yet he said he would never breed again if he had produced a dog that looked like that :-? , also the pug that 'fainted if it got excited' !). If breeders profess to be breeding for the love of a particular breed, rather than for cash, then they should surely be concerned primarily that the dogs they are breeding are heathly or 'fit for purpose'?

Hmmm where do I start..I do not set out to slag off any breeds, I was brought up with an aunt who bred pekes back in the 40's and have had pedigree dogs in the main my whole life. I am afraid I was alarmed at some of the breeds and the lack of interest of people in those breeds to iridicate known problems. it cant ONLY be me who found it quite horrendous that a dog known to have syringmyelia, was not only shown, won BEST IN SHOW!!! but bred from!!! how the hell is a breed going to correct a problem when breeders seem to have a Laissez-faire attitude.We have all known for some years the major problems of some breds such as bulldogs, flat faced breeds and others with excessive wrinkles and flaps of skin etc. One thing I did glean from it {as suspected} the kennel club is run by a load of idiotic ******! It's about time breeders took a good long look at their chosen breeds and not accept what they believe to be acceptable{cause it might not be} Quit with this ostrich with their heads in the sand, or "I know my breed has a problem, but it's not in my line" how many times have we heard that? Lets stop making lame excuses some breeds DO have problems breeders need to be totally honest {if thats at all possible}  work together, instead of slagging off each others stock. stock HAS to be tested before breeding like in Sweden they have very strict rules before dogs may be bred, and they have quality stock!.for years people in the street have been advised to go to a "proper" breeder for a puppy, and hopefully lots do, well i say hopefully how many poor devils have paid a lot of money to a breeder for a so called well bred pup only to find it has an inherited disease? I have know several people,  one with an almost crippled yorkie with hd apparent from a young age, she felt unable to return the pup as many people do, and chose to have 2 very expensive corrective operations.
I am fully expecting a tyrade of replies telling me I know nothing blah blah. well go ahead I have broad shoulders and I felt I have given an an honest opinion. I am not against showing infact I have shown since 1974 and enjoy it. So for god sake take a step back and take a good long look at what your breeding, try breeding a gsd that can actually stand and move correctly for a start!!!!!       OK enough said.. let they tyrade of slating begin.......

i was more worried that the owners of that pug would want to breed with each other....now there is one breeding programme that shouldnt be allowed!!! LOl :)
and what about the cruel callous people who were taking that poor cav for a walk??? why would anyone keep a dog in such a condition? How heartless!

I agree with you Afmad ;-)

I wondered why Jeff Sampson (sp?) had appeared at our Rhodesian Ridgeback World Congress last week ...

It is true that our code of ethics did say that ridgeless pups should be destroyed BUT by far the majority of us wouldn't dream of doing this.  Luckily I've only ever had one ridgeless pup and she's in a wonderful home.  It's only very recently that the KC has told the clubs to change this requirement.

Sadly on the sinus front, you can get a sinus from clear parents, who indeed came from clear litters - happened to me in my last litter.  However, there is a genetics project taking place on this, we had an interesting talk at the congress.  It was stated that you don't get a sinus on a ridgeless pup - I've heard of at least one ridgeless pup with a sinus.  And, unfortunately, we have many people rushing into breeding RRs who know nothing about the breed, who haven't heard of sinus.  I've checked several litters where this is the case - and that's only because I'm nosey and have responded to local ads!

I just wish that it had been pointed out that responsible breeders check for the problems that affect their breeds and only breed from clear dogs - and that most breed clubs have far more stringent requirements than the KC! And then pointed potential puppy purchasers in the direction of the breed clubs and away from the puppy farmers.  That said - I'd like to see some changes to several breeds ....

>As for breeding mum and son I really don't think that's right and iv never known anyone whos done it.

Top breeders have been known to do it, puppy framers too, to create dominancy on one line stamping type and then outcross in the next generation.  I have a pedigree here that has a mother and son mating and then an outcross.  I'm not a breeder BTW.

got to completely agree with this

> One thing I did glean from it {as suspected} the kennel club is run by a load of idiotic =======!

Please mind your language :-) but I think even in this biased programme it did creep through occasionally that the KC is certainly not just sitting back and that they have been working for decades on addressing these problems by first establishing the research and then introducing initiatives to encourage appropriate action.

>> in Sweden they have very strict rules before dogs may be bred

I understand that is government legislation.  The KC simply does not have the power to control all breeding.  If people do not like what they propose they simply do not register their puppies with them.  As they pointed out in the programme they have to proceed in a manner that is well supported by evidence and good will from the breeds themselves.

> and what about the cruel callous people who were taking that poor cav for a walk??? why would anyone keep a dog in such a condition? How heartless!

Yes, an awful thing to do and an awful condition to keep it in as you say :-(  The one screaming on his back could have been relieved by removing that collar and lead I am sure as well.

Are there any cat breeders around tonight? As some of you may know I recently bought 2 pedigree cats and to be honest the GCCF seem to have much stricter controls on breeding than the KC do. Is this a correct impression? If so then maybe the KC could learn something from them.

> OK enough said.. let they tyrade of slating begin

Or the nodding in agreement.

>In Response to Afmad

In a hurry, but just to say I totally agree with you Afmad; I hope it will make the British public more savoy when thinking about buying a pedigree dog.  Not satisfied with the answers, walk away.  There are plenty of rescue dogs which can be as big or as little a lottery and I for one will not fund a breeder's pocket who is not interested in the breed's health.

I agree with you Afmad 

me too
the woman with the cav that won bis is a disgrace
no way should that dog be bred from

Yes, an awful thing to do and an awful condition to keep it in as you say   The one screaming on his back could have been relieved by removing that collar and lead I am sure as well.

I agree.  It gets me that the people with that black and white CKCS that was put down, is that it wasnt put down before they could get a good shot of it in pain.  Thankfully my own breed got off lightly, all that was there was a picture of a dog from years ago and one around today.  Funny thing is I still have tall dachshunds which are considered a european type and I show them in ireland, france and germany.  They just dont do well over here.  Thats why I have both types

The program is exactly want I expected.  AN OUTSIDERS VIEW AND SHOWING NOTHING BUT THE NEGATIVES THEY COULD FIND.  They didn't even show that not all dogs have the problems, it came across like every breed in the world is doomed.

One thing that got me is I have a very strict rule, if the dog cant live without pain then it should be put down.  In my opinion the CKCS at the beginning with the constant scratching should have been put down along with the boxer that was fitting all the time.  If they love dogs so much put them out of their misery.

Also did anyone else notice that the people willing to talk to the program were mainly pet owners, not show dog owners.  The owners should have done a bit more research before buying a puppy if they didnt want to have the problems.

I do agree that the imposing of health checks would be a great idea to stop puppy farmers.  But I think it would have to come in slowly so as not to drive people away from pedigree dog breeding altogether.

I think as society is going the world is going to be one bland place in a couple of hundred years and not just in dogs.

Emma - Sorry for the long winded rant.

The owners should have done a bit more research before buying a puppy if they didnt want to have the problems.

Rather harsh i think, we don't know that they didn't and many pet owners think that KC Reg is some sort of guarantee of quality which of course it isn't!

Rather harsh i think, we don't know that they didn't and many pet owners think that KC Reg is some sort of guarantee of quality which of course it isn't!

No i dont think it is to harsh.  One women said she had never heard of the problem in CKCS, so hence she did no research.  I spent 3 years studying my breed before buying one.  I think people look at a dog these days and go that dog looks lovely without thinking about the long term.

Emma

Edited to say, thankfully joe public will probably have forgotten about this in a few weeks.

MALIBU SAID>>One thing that got me is I have a very strict rule, if the dog cant live without pain then it should be put down.  In my opinion the CKCS at the beginning with the constant scratching should have been put down along with the boxer that was fitting all the time.  If they love dogs so much put them out of their misery.

TOTALLY AGREE!!
to leave these animals like this is selfish of their owners i could never sit thu my Rottie fitting like that even if he was ok a while later its still suffering at the time of these fits its cruel

It did raise some very valid points that definately need looking into and taking further, but the way it was done was scandlemongering and shock journalism.  There will always be this type of program as long as we have people that do not put the good of there dogs above the need to boost there own ego.

LYNN

I agree Afmad, I think it has raised some uncomfortable questions.  I was really shocked by the GSD's in the ring.

The owners should have done a bit more research before buying a puppy if they didnt want to have the problems.

The problem is that the average pet home has two maybe three dogs in their lifetime - they are not expecting these problems, and may be lucky with their first dog/s so why would they think there should be a problem.  The internet and it's wealth of info that can be found is a relatively recent innovation.

No i dont think it is to harsh.  One women said she had never heard of the problem in CKCS, so hence she did no research.  I spent 3 years studying my breed before buying one.  I think people look at a dog these days and go that dog looks lovely without thinking about the long term.

Yes, but you, like everyone else on here (including myself) adores dogs and takes it beyond just having a pet.  The average pet owner does not expect problems...... although they will now if they've seen the programme.  Listening to the BBC 5 radio programme afterwards, it would seem that the immediate effect is that pet buyers will not look for pedigree dogs from good breeders, but buy mongrels and crossbreeds....

As someone who purchased a sick dog from a breeder that is/was (do not know if he still is) a license breeder and a dog judge (was supposed to be a well respected judge). And as someone that had difficulties with the KC I am all for the KC to start cleaning house and forcing all breeders to have relevant health checks and to strike those breeders of there books if the do not. I also think that the KC should strike those of there books if they find puppy farmers registering, or if they have had numerous complaints about a breeder. And  massive numbers of litters being registered from one person, they should at least investigate them.  I also think we also need government regulations. If the KC, The government, RCVS, and Breeders all worked together and bring in good legislation  this may help the health of dogs and may possibly help get rid off puppy farming. 

So I am all for a program that will educate the public to look deeper into who the breeder is and what health checks the animals have had, then maybe other people will not go through what my family have.
I thought I did research enough but I soon found out wrong so their will always be some that will slip the net as in my case, but less sick dogs should be the out come everyone would want.

JenP

But dont you think that regardless of the animal you are buying, whether it be a dog, cat, horse, etc.  Mongrel or pedigree.  Dont most people ask, can I see mum and dad (if available)  do they have any health problems?  Common sense!!  Good people dont lie about big things. Just money makers lie about things, most people just want a good forever home for the animal.

Emma

Edited to say, I can see all the people that charge a fortune for the doodle type dogs rubbing their hands after this program.

> The owners should have done a bit more research before buying a puppy if they didnt want to have the problems.
>

Many owners including myself have done research and have been caught out by lieing breeders. The breeder of my dog was a dog judge supposed to be a well respected dog judge, was a member of a breed clubs, was a Licensed breeder, but I was caught out. The KC had complaints about this breeder before but the breeder was still allowed to KC/register the dogs. It isnt all as black and white as it seems their is a seedy underworld with some breeders about time someone put stop to it for the health of the dogs.

Dont most people ask, can I see mum and dad (if available)  do they have any health problems?

Why should they?  (well I know why the should), but they don't expect to ask those questions.  When they buy a car or washing machine, do they ask what problems they will have...no, they just expect them to work, unless they have experienced problems in the past, or unless they have someone more experienced to advise them.  Unfortunately, people don't think... and like any other commodity, legally the seller is deemed to have the greater knowledge and therefore has more responsibility.

The breeder of my dog was a dog judge supposed to be a well respected dog judge, was a member of a breed clubs, was a Licensed breeder, but I was caught out

I think one thing the programme has highlighted one thing it is that 'show breeders' are just as much of a mixed bunch as the rest of us :-) - some good, some bad.

ey missed the piont completly though as it is way way time the powers that be brought in LEGISLATION to govern breeding of dogs, at the moment any tom dick or harry can produce a litter of pups regardless of health and flog them to anyone with the cash. We need stong laws in force to regulate breeding of dogs, we need the KC to insist on breeds having ALL available health checks done prior to pups being registered and backing from the government to make sure this is a fully regulated passtime. Puppy farmers would then need  to conform (That would be a miracle as things stand at the moment) and only laws will make this happen...the KC has a roll to play but the government in my opinion has a bigger one.

Absolutly right. The AB scheme was no doubt well intended, but it's just a good way for puppy farmers to sell their stock as being good. How many people know what health checks mean? A visit to the vet? can they read the scores, I doubt it. No, everything you have suggested would stop the majority of dog breeding, and that can't be bad. Do wonder what would happen with genuine accidents though, perhaps pet dogs would have to be neutered?

> I think one thing the programme has highlighted one thing it is that 'show breeders' are just as much of a mixed bunch as the rest of us :-) - some good, some bad.

I agree, you will always find a few bad apples in a orchard.

> bright lights, restraining and shouting , no wonder the poor little chap had a second seizure

Sorry, on a technical point, for the filming that they were doing, bright lights would not be required, it would have just been a professional step up from a bog standard video camera.  Bright lights and cameras usually only accompany studio work.

It looked to me as sort of a home video with just the light attached to a cam-corder as they had to put on the kitchen light to show the fit as it was dark - but I could be wrong.

Scientists and vets say one thing, breeders another, the Kc something else, at least its some sort of exposure that may just sort some sad people out. (The cav stud dog owner, the breeding of the awful backed GSD, the fact of culling puppies, he fact its ok for a dog so spoiled by breeding it passes out but its ok because it'll come round again' the afflction of Cavs and that awful pain, all the other problems with pedigree dogs that cause such awful problems, the severe inbreeding etc)

rather than screaming to do an exposure on puppy farmers (been done many times) what is now needed is a filmed response from the KC showing the other side, accepting that the program bought out faults that they are working on, and with the help of breeders and breed clubs show the better side of responsible dog breeding, showing and owning. bring on the healthy dogs of all breeds, and the ancient oldies!

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