Without making any judgements, I really think the best thing is to let the breeder rehome him - ask him exactly what costs are likely to be incurred and get it sorted, you will have no further worries or will incur no more costs in keeping him. 

Of course you can keep him yourself and try to rehome him yourself, but you have no idea how long this will take, you will still be incurring expenses etc and if he is being left on his own all day, without training at this age, he is likely to become even more unmanageable and therefore more difficult to sell on. 

As you have seen from most of the posts here, we all think you have made a big mistake - firstly in buying a puppy as a "surprise", secondly in not giving yourself and the puppy time to acclimatise, and thirdly in expecting the breeder to hand you your money back straight away!

At the same time, I feel that this breeder made a mistake in perhaps not asking enough questions of you - I would hesitate at letting a pup go to a new home where the owner would be at work all day, and being exposed to a young child on a "part time" basis.

I think you have learned a valuable lesson the hard way - maybe next time you should consult more with your ex-partner as well as the breeder before venturing into dog-ownership.

Regards
Margot

a giant schnauzer is usually £750 or more so i think you had a good deal anyway. Have you considered that she may give him to rescue if she cant sell him? then there would be no money for anyone.

I dont understand that? you have a son but he doesnt live with you but his mum and your ex partner? how is that possible?

lol @ mygirl :D thinks he means that she is the childs mum and his (the OPs) ex partner.
    not living with mum and ex partner but mum is ex partner!

Oh hahahaha i thought it was a riddle and i was trying to solve it, in the end i thought they were lesbians. :D

Look, both of you are at fault.

Nrob324 - If I were you, literally, and had bought this dog and then realised it was a mistake, I would do what is BEST FOR THE DOG, which is that it is returned to the breeder (forget about the money part for now).  This is because the breeder knows about the breed and is supposed to know what to look for, when finding the best homes for that breed.  Therefore to give the dog the best chance of its next home being permanent, it would be best for it to go back to the breeder.  Whoever is at fault here, whether it's you or the breeder or both of you, we are all agreed that it is NOT the dog's fault.  So don't let the dog pay for it.  Personally, I would try to see if the breeder would give me money back but I would still return the dog, whatever. 

In my life I have made many expensive mistakes - I think the most expensive was enrolling on a TEFL course which cost me £1000 quid, and then realising after the 1st day that I didn't want to do it.  I then left the course, after the 1st day.  I tried to get my money back - I wrote a letter to the college - but they refused.  There was nothing I could do and I put it down to a learning experience.  I don't have vast amounts of money and £1000 is a lot of money to me.

The truth is - you got a dog and you didn't research what it involved to have a puppy.  You didn't realise you couldn't leave a puppy at home all day.  You didn't realise puppies bite and jump up.  You made a mistake.  You have had the puppy for 4 days and you, yourself, haven't made any arrangements for it to have its jabs yet so you can hardly blame the breeder for that.  (Mine all go the day after I get them!)   You bought the puppy unvaccinated at 17 wks, which would not be advisable.  You got a puppy which is 17 wks old and therefore nearly past the critical window for socialisation, which ends at around 18 wks.  And it sounds like you didn't research a good breeder properly either, seeing as they have a 17 wk old unvaccinated puppy and are advising you to hit it for puppy biting.  You chose the breeder - they didn't choose you.

The breeder isn't blameless in all this, but that's irrelevant.  You are you, and not the breeder.  If I were you, I would do the noble thing and swallow your pride and take the dog back, and if necessary, lose the money and put it down to experience.

The breeder isn't blameless in all this

We don't know what the breeder was told!  They can only make their decision on the facts as presented.:rolleyes:

"i have a small child i dont live with him he  lives with his mum my ex partner

i bought 4 him as a surprise as he has just lost his old Schnauzer"

Of course it was a lovely jesture but obviously not one thought through properly.  A puppy is a major 'investment' - for the lifetime of the dog.  They need constant care and attention and for a single parent who works full time its just a bad idea I'm afraid.  Don't let it put you off dogs for life though as ALL dogs can be wonderful pets and family companions :)  You just need to wait til your in a different work situation or have a partner with different working hours so that the dog is never left alone for more than 4 hours.  Also, and older puppy/young adult dog would be better with small children as in my experience youngsters and puppies = madness!!!  I'm guessing your young child was used to a far more sedate adult dog and puppies take a good few years to get to that stage if they ever reach it!  Puppies DO nip but I totally understand why your young son was scared by this.  And if it had been allowed to go on for even a few days more he would have grown even more scared of a puppy which was merely playing.  Many young children simply do not understand or know how to act around puppies (mine included!) and it just makes for a whirlwind of madness and tears.  I hope your brother socialises the puppy well and rears it to be the brilliant companion that it can be :)

Puppies are not handbags to chop and change when things don't suit. The poor puppy!!! Everything should be looked into very, very, carefully when buying a pup, to be honest the breeder is being more than kind, I would not have given you one penny back I am afraid, I am up at 5am and not in bed until after midnight caring for my pups and trying to find them the best homes, someone like you would make me so angry.  Thank goodness the breeder will get her baby back.

but the breeder isnt getting the puppy back! the posters brother is having it !!! is your brother paying you for the puppy ?

I think the OP has done a classic 'lets try and buy the child a present'  to try and win the childs affections/allegiance maybe due to them living with his ex partner and their new partner and this has turned round and bitten them right on the bum :rolleyes:

Another good idea would be to see if the Ex partner would take the pup as if they have just lost a dog of the same breed then maybe they would take the pup on and maybe would be in a better situation to have a dog :)

I think the breeder sounds a bit dodgy personally if they recommend hitting the pup.

Alot what has been said actually sounds a tad dodgy really :rolleyes:

Another avenue if the OP is genuine is to try and rehome with the breed rescue :)

I've read through this topic with a growing sense of disbelief! Only we've certainly all made mistakes in our lives and I'd never judge anyone on the basis of admitting to an honest mistake. But on the other hand I have to wonder at what sort of reasoning went through the OP's head when she chose a demanding breed without adequate research or consideration of her lifestyle and then, only 4 days later, starts passing the poor pup around like a parcel because she can't come to a sensible agreement with the breeder.

Or are we all being lead up the garden path here?

Nrob- I cannot believe you have the nerve to buy a puppy and then take it back after JUST 4 days because it hasn't come trained. Perhaps you should look at your family life when your child comes to stay with you BEFORE you make ANY changes in your home life. The only one I feel sorry for is the pup, who doesn't know whether he's coming or going. I also have to say that I agree with someone earlier in the topic, ' you shouldn't be owning any kind of puppy '.

Roz I think it is a genuine mistake in hind sight because of the situation about the split of the relationship :) I maybe wrong but get a gut feeling this maybe the reason :)

I think the breeder has offered a perfectly reasonable course of action, I don't think they can be expected to do any more.

However I'm sure if this breeder knew how this puppy is being passed around the family they might be prepared to give the money back just to ensure the safe return of this baby. I'm sure they would be frantic if they only knew what was going on here. I can only imagine how I would feel if I were the breeder at risk of losing touch with one of my puppies so soon.

Dawn R.

To be honest if i was the breeder i would be a bit pissed off at someone returning a pup after 4 days.But to show that i was being honest i think i would have offered half the money back straight away and the rest (if any)when the pup was sold.And i wouldn't have a problem putting it in writing.
I think that the breeder should have made some token gesture though.
The person has made a mistake and admitted it, and tried to do the right thing by contacting the breeder.I can't understand why the pup wasn't vaccinated  at 17 weeks.
If this is supposed to be a reputable breeder, they shouldn't be selling unvaccinated pups at that age.Just makes you wonder how reputable the breeder is.
What would be normal charge for food and board for a 17 week old pup? I have no idea, would £50 a week cover it. If the breeder was going to charge proper boarding kennel fees the £500 wouldn't last very long.

ISn't 17 weeks a bit early to decide this pup has a retained testicle anyway?

i was thinking that too- he's not going to stud at 17 weeks old is he???! gosh- give the poor pup time.

if i were you, just think- try to minimise the short & long term stress for the pup, let the breeder have him back, wait a while for the money back- so what if you will lose out a little bit, you should have to pay for wasting time and using up this pups socialising time- when he could have been experiences things not being passed around.

dogs cost money for their whole life- not just purchase price. my dog cost nothing- she was unwanted too, yet she has cost us £1000 in 5months- yet its well worth it to see her flourish after operation.

I was tempted to say train the child BUT I think if you are prepared to give up that easy take the pup back.

The breeder does have to resell the pup so she does have to cover herself , she could howver refund you as it is only 4 days and perhaps keep £50 -£100 .

Me personally would rather have the puppy back and give the refund.

Think you need to work out your child though, unless he is a baby I would find this disturbing.

Forgot to say I think it would be very wrong of you to sell the pup elsewhere.  Very unfair to the pup. The breeder is the best judge of character for the new owner..

Trouble is, this breeder apparently hasn't been the best judge of character so far :rolleyes:

Margot

We don't know what the breeder was told!  They can only make their decision on the facts as presented.

That's why I used the word apparently - there seems to be more than the usual amount of "grey area" in these posts. The reasons outlined leave lots of questions still unaswered ;)

Margot

I didn't want to add that BUT that is what I was thinking .. thought I may sound too cheeky.. ;-)  Glad you said it

It is a no win for the puppy all around I think 

Most important rule here; train the owner to train the dog. 

If the breeder is not responsible enough to give the correct information re training for the pup how is the new owner supposed to train the pup.  However, who's to say the breeder told her to hit the pup with a rolled up newspaper - we have all been quoted out of context at one time or another so I would take that remark with a pinch of salt.

It is never a wise move to try and bribe a child with anything, usually back fires in the end.  Like puppies they need love and affection and to know that they are valued and wanted.  This takes time and effort, above all time and commitment.  If the commitment is not there the youngster, child or pup, will not respond. 

With such a large breed I would be inclined to go back to the breeder or go through breed rescue, who will ask you if you contacted the breeder first and what course of action has been advised.  They will easily find the right home for this pup.  It is possible that they will seek the advice of the breeder herself as to temperament etc and who the pup will suit.

If your brother has had their breed before he may well be the answer to your dilemma.  Either way it wouldn't hurt to talk with someone from the breed rescue who could be very helpful to you.

quite clearly not look where the puppy is now, how is that the best judgement

As has been pointed out, we don't know what the breeder was told ... ;)

Exactly, but regardless what we think they puppy probably better back with the breeder which it knows that with a 3rd party that could end up in a 4th party.

People really bug me at times.

I'm not sure of protocol in these situations, but is it really that wrong for him to give the puppy to his brother, if his brother is willing to take it in and love the puppy?  Would a breeder really get more mad at that, than say giving the dog to a shelter or leaving god knows where?  If this story is true, I think the brother should be commended for coming to the 'rescue', no?  Again, i do not know breeder rules, but this must be a viable option, rather than having to take it back, feed and kennel it, in hopes of re-homing.

Just a point of view from someone who's not a breeder, tho.

id want my pup back......but then id be happy to givea full refund in this situ TO get it back

I'm not sure of protocol in these situations, but is it really that wrong for him to give the puppy to his brother, if his brother is willing to take it in and love the puppy?

Yes. Because the brother would not have been checked out personally by the breeder and would not have signed a contract.

Well, this puppy didnt get his new home checked very well in the first place, did he? As the puppy is with the OP, no home check for suitability could have been done, or the Op well interviewed. Do none of you do 'spot checks'? my friend does, just to have a look see what the area is like, and who comes and goes at the house, rings them at odd times too, to see if they are at home during the day, always for a 'little chat'. The thing is, its an older puppy, for whatever reason its misbehaving, I wonder if it has any social skills which at this age it should have from the breeder. It should have had at least 7 weeks of being in the home so should be fairly well houstrained, walking well on the lead, sitting, and mixing well with other dogs and people. Should also be well used to traveling in a car. can the OP confirm if this is the case? if the dog is not this trained, then its not much of a breeder, sounds like  someone who has bred a litter of puppies for the money, and has one left over, just as you all talk about being poor breeders. I wonder if the parents were health checked? 

Well, this puppy didnt get his new home checked very well in the first place, did he?

Once again we can't know anything that was said so we don't know this. Chances are you're right, but we don't actually know.

Do none of you do 'spot checks'? my friend does, just to have a look see what the area is like, and who comes and goes at the house, rings them at odd times too, to see if they are at home during the day, always for a 'little chat'.

Let's see, I'm in Yorkshire, my last litter had pups going to Cornwall, Devon, Northern Ireland...........next litter has bookings from abroad, Scotland, Wales.......... BIT difficult to just pop over........

She has danes, and yes she has a waiting list, and yes she travels miles to have a cuppa with the potential owners. not abroard, but she wont export. She visits them all at 4 mths, they then all come back at 6 and 12 mths to visit her!

A 17 week old puppy should have been fully vacinated and wormed. no question. Would you really let an unvaccinated pup at that age leave your premises, if you were genuinly concerned for its health, and not just the £50 fee to vaccinate? this pup can't even attend training classes for three weeks, nor be taken for walks and runs, because its not vaccinated. So the OP can't even take it to a puppy class and let a trainer help....Has this puppy received any socialisation by the breeder before the OP purchased it? Has it been out and about, lead trained and walked down roads, taken to puppy classes, mixed socially with other dogs and people? it should have been, but without the protection of vaccination its a real risk. or has it just sat in kennels, awaiting an unsuspecting buyer....this lack of training by the breeder could be the root of the biting problems, by now it should have had training by the breeder to halt this, and the breeder saying give a clip round the nose makes you wonder how many clips this pup has had...before OP had it.

From after 8 weeks all puppies should have had their first vaccination, and if you have pups unsold then its your responsibility as a breeder to do so. How else are you going to be able to comense the socialising and training for a puppy that remains unsold, or perhaps awaiting the new owner to collect re holidays etc, when the puppy is 10 weeks? as is well known, there is a few short weeks where the socialising is essential, and thats not just playing at home, be that kennel or kitchen, but actually taking the puppy out, meeting other dogs and if at all possible, puppy classes. After all, do you not tell your puppy purchasers this very thing when they leave at 8 weeks?

The Op said the breeder told her she shows. so, as far as op is concerned, a show person is a good breeder, after all it says so in the magazines. Its not a puppy farm, its nice and tidy, good kennels, nice looking dogs, so it cant be a puppy farm. How is a novice purchaser supposed to tell the difference between someone who shows and is a responsible breeder, and
someone who shows and is not?

Unless the OP lied about their circumstances to get the dog (and Im not acusing anyone OP, so don't think i am ok) the breeder should have given a good vetting about the home the dog was going to, and having found out it was to be left all day should have stopped the sale there and then. And the OP politely explained to as to why it wouldn't work, not treated like an idiot. We all have to learn, manners cost nothing. Why was a home check not done, to check suitability for this breed of dog? They don't have the eaisest natures at the best of times, and i would have thought a responsible breeder would have wanted to do a home check to ensure the premises were suitable anyway.

i did post before, but having read deeper into it, have had a change of mind. I thought it was 4 months the OP had the pup with her, not 4 days. Its all well and good saying the breeder will return whats left of the £500 after boarding.  After a weeks lodging, advertising, vaccination (which I bet will be added to the bill) feeding, and a charge for caring for the dog, I can see that £500 gone in the week. A bit much for only 4 days ownership, has the advertising even finished yet for this pup?

if the testical remains retained, and a vet has to operate, will insurance cover a puppy that is purchased with the problem there at the point of sale? I thought it didnt cover for conditions already apparent at the time of insuring? So, this would have to be paid for by the purchaser. Was this pointed out at the time of sale? was this condition and its implications pointed out at the time of sale?

Without hearing all sides its not easy to give a clear opinion. But I would say that, after only 4 days the pup should be returned and the purchase price refunded. Both parties are at fault, but I would put the onus on the breeder because they failed to make sure all the circumstances were as they should be, if all that has been said is correct.

OP, are they a KC acredited breeder? If they are, you will have been given a contract and a wallet of papers which will show you how to complain about this breeder under this scheme, if they are not you possibly had no more than the kc document and feeding instrustions. I would also take advice from the breed club, you will find their details here.( On champdogs site, under your breed, have a look for the breed club details) If this person is a member, they have a strict code of conduct to uphold, you may have more joy that way, with help to rectify this matter. You will need the KC name of pup, and pups sire and dam and the breeders details. If they are not a member, I don't think they can help you.

OP, I can understand you wanting your money back, £500 is a lot of money, especially in such a short time span. i know of breeders that will refund the full price up to 6 months old, and then a sliding scale there after, all in writing and agreed at point of sale, because they want their pups back if anything goes wrong. but its up to the breeder, and their rules. Some will say that the breeder should take the puppy back, but not give a refund. I guess 4 days is a bit quick for that sort of rule really. this is why all these sort of things should be sorted out prior to purchase, including what should happen if the puppy didnt settle etc etc and had to go back to the breeder, and what money would be returned, if any. That way both the purchaser and the breeder know whats on offer. At least you are prepared to offer half back. I think this is a good offer.

Another thought, regarding the retained testicle. If the vet will state and back up that this is a potentially serious health problem, something which a 'Lay person' thats you OP couldnt have reasonably known, then this puppy can be rejected for health reasons? That way the full price should be refunded without question. pups are sold subject to a satisfactory vet health check, and if it fails this it can be returned. which brings me to another point, would any of you sell a puppy with a potentialy serious health problem, one insurance may not cover? if you did, what safe guards would you give the purchaser?

If the retained testicle was mentioned before the sale then the OP has no come-back on the grounds that they didn't know about it - they'd 'accepted the goods'. It doesn't make a pup 'not fit for the purpose' of being a pet, especially as many vets would recommend that it was castrated even if it had both testicles descended.

which brings me to another point, would any of you sell a puppy with a potentialy serious health problem, one insurance may not cover? if you did, what safe guards would you give the purchaser?

Last year I sold a kitten who had not one but TWO retained testicles -at the age he was there was virtually no chance of them dropping (kittens should have theirs at 6-8 weeks), which was a great shame as I had wanted to keep him as a stud. I sold him to a celebrity as well :) and what I did was explain everything in detail, and put it all in writing explaining just what neutering would entail (the cat was too small for my vet to want to do the op before he went, otherwise I'd have had it done before) and have the new owner SIGN that he had read it and understood it and guaranteed to have the kitten neutered at the age my vet had suggested. I also reduced the price by the amount my own vet had quoted me for the op and this too was put in writing.

well, you did everything you could possibly could then, and had it all in writing, and he knew that insurance was not an option. I don't think this is the case with the dog, and if the retained testicle became cancerous whilst 'waiting for it to drop' I would consider that a serious health problem. Selling the dog under the 'wait and see' seems a bit risky to me.

A 17 week old puppy should have been fully vacinated and wormed. no question. Would you really let an unvaccinated pup at that age leave your premises, if you were genuinly concerned for its health, and not just the £50 fee to vaccinate? this pup can't even attend training classes for three weeks, nor be taken for walks and runs, because its not vaccinated.

I personally wouldn't, but like I said before there are PLENTY of people out there INCLUDING breeders that think that vaccinations is the root of all evil and therefore NEVER vaccinate due to their belief in it being wrong and causing problems. We don't KNOW this breeder didn't do it just to save money, it could be they are anti vaccine!

The lady is supposed to show, so I imagine she attends ringcraft and shows? There is some suggestion she has a boarding kennel? Don't they have to have an up to date vaccination record for ring craft, like any dog training place, and the same for shows? Surely you are not telling me the KC allows un vaccinated dogs at its shows?    @kc if they allow this. and i remember hard pad/distemper, parvo, and i wouldnt risk my dog or anyone elses dog have this by not vaccinating. ok, the boosters may not have to be done yearly, except for the lepto one, but the slight risk has to be better than infecting the population of dogs should any disease become rampent again. You can give it in seperate doses, not all together, I'm sorry but responsible dog ownership to me includes vaccination.

My dogs aren't vaccinated & are shown I lost a Cavalier due to his vaccinations & a Beardie I bred was vaccine damaged too. My dogs are blood tested on a regular basis & do not need to be vaccinated(I doubt anyone who vaccinates blood tests as they put their trust in the vaccines which aren't always effective-friend lost a up to date vaccinated dog to Parvo & tests showed he had no resistance to it !)

The KC require all exhibitors not to take sick dogs & dogs that have been exposed to sickness to shows on their entry forms

Lots of people do not vaccinate & show their dogs Why should you or anyone else dictate to them  that they have to put their dogs at risk of being adversely affected by vaccines ?

Exactly. Each to their own and it should be up to each individual to decide whether to vaccinate or not. I do, doesn't mean everyone else HAS to. I've never attended any ringcraft or obedience class that asked for vacc certs. So there is NOTHING to say the breeder is irresponsible for not vaccinating, they may well follow their own beliefs in what they think best -we don't know.

moonmaiden........i'm really sorry to hear about the problems you have had with your dogs and vaccines, I'm not suprised you feel as you do, and thank you for your friendly post back, as I have obviously trod on your toes and I certainly didnt mean to. to me, vaccines have always been essential, and i really thought responsible dog ownership was to keep your dog clear of diseases. I thought parvo was still doing the rounds, what protection do the dogs have from that? My friend lost the kennel of superb show dogs when parvo first struck, was it the 80's, short term memory loss kicking in lol.......What are the blood tests for? Are they to say the dog is clear? How often do you have to have them done? How would you tell if your puppies are clear, do you blood test them before they leave? What do you tell the new owners to do? Sorry for the questions, but this really has caught my attention. i have heard that people are not sure of the need to vaccinate every year, but never heard of health problems caused by vaccine before, except perhaps a little quietness after, or an upset tum, but then children get that, and they are ok after. (yes, I know there is lots against the MMR, just saying mine were ok after) I thought everyone gave the first complete vaccine.

I know of MANY good owners and excellent, responsible breeders who choose not to vaccinate, and even some vets now agree that annual boosters are not necessary. It is up to the new owner whether to vaccinate or not and I certainly would not consider it necessary for a breeder to vaccinate a puppy before it is homed. Some boarding kennels will now accept dogs who are not vaccinated, and views on vaccination in the dog world are changing.

No, there's no regulation that says dogs at shows have to be vaccinated.

Sorry to sound harsh, but you have to decide what is best for the PUPPY and worry about the money later.  You should have thought about your child before you bought the puppy and in my opinion should not have bought a puppy for a child to replace another dog - I cant belive how many people do this abd it is always the dogs that suffer.  If you keep this pupy at home and yur child is constantly crying when the puppy goes near him you are asking for problems, this pupy should now be being socialised with children NOT being frightened by them.

My advice send him back to the breeder so the pupy can be cared for and socialised adequatly and sort the money at at a later date, after all you made the decision to get the puppy. 

The breeder should have questioned you prior to selling you the puppy so I feel no sympathy for them however they do have a resonsibility to the puppy and at least they have offered to take the puppy back. 

Stop being so selfish!

Em liisa, ok i totally agree that this pup should not have been purchased, but hang on a min. this lady has split with her partner, the child is not with her, the old dog has died, the child is upset enough already with the loss of that dog, and the split of the parents. She must be under so much unhappiness herself, and scared to live alone, come on, a dog to cheer up the child and make herself safe must have been a good solution at the time. Don't call her selfish, unless its selfish to love your kids too much, and if that the case then I'm guilty as charged. Its ok to seee clearly when all is well, but thats not quite the case, is it. A good breeder would have found out about her circumstances before letting the puppy go, by more than just the initial chat, i bet she saw the pup and paid her money and took it the same day. The breeder has to take more responsibility for placing her pup in totally the wrong home, and if that includes a small financial loss on this puppy, then so be it. it was only there for 4 days! Would any of you have just let this puppy go without doing a home check, and releasing the puppy on the day its viewed? wouldn't you have done a check at 2 days after, 4 days after, then a week? And had there been serious settling in probs the purchaser couldn't handle, wouldn't you take the pup back giving a refund less say a weeks advertising? I'm sort of thinking this is what makes a good breeder, its not simply the health checks etc but the after care, and the willingness to rehome the puppy with refunds should anything go wrong, and keeping intouch with each puppy for at least the first month.

Erm ... I think the OP's a chap, calmstorm, not a lady. ;)

>the willingness to rehome the puppy with refunds should anything go wrong

Yes, that's exactly what the breeder's offered.

It's not always possible to do personal home-checks, however much you'd like to. Buyers often travel over a hundred miles to buy a puppy, so the breeder can't just casually 'pop in' every so often.