Like a degree in Animal Behaviour - you know - you get tham at Universites!  There are recognised qualifications regarding 'work in training or behaviour'.  Contact UCAS or the APBC if you need clarification. 

I dont have a law degree but surely if you give information (in person, or via the internet) and you are proven (in a small claims court) that you have given information or advice that has made a situation worse, then you are liable and can be sued.  Or maybe that does not count for people on the internet who keep their identity anonymous?   Maybe I was wrong.  I will check with my friend tomorrow who lectures at my University in law.  Sorry if my post was misleading.  

You dont need to tell me to be careful.  Yes some naive maybe new pet owner as you quoted might think there is some formal qualification for a reputeable dog trainer or behaviourist - there IS, it is called a degree (more so required by a behaviourist).  You may be under to insumption that you can read a few books and attend a few talks and hey ho you are a behaviourist?  Sorry it takes alot more than that in this day and age.  Dog owners are not that stupid!

As you seem the font of all knowledge maybe you can enlighten us to your credentials?  After all you attacked my post and have gone against what I said?  Educate me!

Actually it is Dr Roger Mugford and I understand he has a PhD.  You didnt know this?

But you dont need a degree to train dogs,is this correct? Has that Victoria ever said she is a 'qualified' behaviouist? Just curious :p

I am not up with it at all when it comes to training qualifications i'm afraid. Can anyone call themselves a dog trainer? People who train dogs for good citizen etc. are they trainers or behaviourists? What study do they have to do and what qualificatins do the need to become/call themselves a trainer?

Sorry about all the questions,i'm just interested to know how easy it is for any Jo Blo to call themselves a 'trainer'  :)

I suppose like in all areas of life people can call themselves what they like which is why qualifications become so important.  The guy who runs our training school is MBIPDT (Member of British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers).  TBH I don't know how well regarded that qualification is, all I know is that I enjoy going, my dog enjoys going and the guy covers all aspects of training from pet, to problems where you get one to one. They do agility, flyball, tracking.  Also trains specialist dogs for work.  Selling this to myself now :D Haven't been for a while and really hoping to go back soon so that I can iron some problems that have cropped up.

Just had quick look for VS's quals and can't find any. I'd expect her to highlight them if she had them wouldn't you? Most professionals I know state their qualifications after their name when wishing to promote their credibility to show that they aren't "fly by night"

I'd expect her to highlight them if she had them wouldn't you?

True :)

I wonder, do some people just have a knack with dogs,and are naturally talented in this area?Perhaps years of experience with theirs and friends troubled dogs?

In reply to the original poster without actually seeing the dog I would say your puppy is just doing a normal puppy thing.  I own a beagle and she did/does exactly what you appear to be describing and my youngest son does hype her up and encourage her.  They do tend to tug on clothes and make a growling noise but I find it very hard to believe a 4 month old pup is aggressive unless it is being tormented.  My advise would be to stop your son getting the dog hyped up for a start.  What we do with lucky is give her a quick blast with a water spray.  She doesnt like it it isnt cruel and she does stop.  Tell her no quickly. 

Regarding behaviourists and degrees in behaviour I am not quite sure I agree you need a degree to be good at dog training.  It is not a area which interests me as long as the dog does as it is told and is reasonably well behaved that is great for me but I do think some people just have a natural affinity with dogs.  I am also not convinced that Victoria Stillwell has 100% success as I very much doubt the show would show a total disaster.  And if you want to get picky the dalmatian she saw in one of the programmes did nip someone again after she saw it so it depends on your point of view as to her success. 

I would be very much against the idea of using a water spray to prevent a puppy from biting.

As the link I posted below explains ( http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm  )  it is very important for puppies to bite, so that they learn how hard is too hard, and so that they acquire what is called "bite inhibition".  If you prevent your puppy from biting AT ALL, or if you make it too afraid (by using a water spray etc) to experiment with different levels of bite, then your dog will not have bite inhibition when it grows up. 

And this makes it much more likely to do SERIOUS harm if it ever is put into a position where it wants to defend itself (such as your shutting the dog's tail in the car dog, for eg).  It will not know "how hard is too hard", and it will turn and take a chunk out of you.  A dog with good bite inhibition in a similar situation would turn and either snap and make no contact, or make contact but not break the skin. 

I would strongly advise all owners of young puppies NOT to use aversive methods to prevent their puppies from play biting and to read the link above.

>I wonder, do some people just have a knack with dogs,and are naturally talented in this area?Perhaps years of experience with theirs and friends troubled dogs?

Yes, undoubtedly and perhaps this is the crux.  She has methods that work for her but there are techniques that qualified people take issue with and they can't be ignored.  Qualifications are developed and improved over many years by many people with a wealth of experience and knowledge.   If everyone who was acredited with an ABC qualification was shown not to improve a behaviour or actually made it worse with even half the dogs they saw you would be able to say without doubt that the qualification is worthless.

The problem with TV programmes like her's is the selection process. We don't know how or why she selects the dogs she does and we don't have any follow-ups to guage her real success.

yes Dr Roger Mugford does have a PhD in it as does his associate Dr Candy D'sa who works for him.

i am off to university next year to study animal behaviour and welfare - nothing actually qualifys you to be an animal behaviourist but a degree and experience is what matters now adays

This is a natural part of a growing puppy, if it were with it's own kind it would be pouncing nipping and play fighting.  I always recommend a tug rope or toy with you at all times so that puppy can play his tug and biting games with that with you. Pups want to play with someone they like interactive play, children are small which is why a pup will go to a child first. It is a renowned habit for a pup to tug at socks, sleeves anything it can get it's teeth into to tug.  You can not train a puppy not to do this, it needs to do this, it is a part of it's nature and a way to loose those baby teeth.  Just substitute with a suitable replacement, and more importantly than anything, supervise puppy time with your child, when she wants to play you need to remove your child or take pup into another room for you to play with her instead. Children do not know how to act or play with puppies, that needs to be your job.

Your pup as she gets older will outgrow this behaviour, it is all part of a puppy growing up, and not anything to worry about. :-)

Here's a little anecdote that might illustrate the effect that loud noises can have with a puppy, which has led me to think that using them as a training method is not be a good idea!  Our eldest, nearing 7, is a dog that knows his place in the world, bold as brass and a show off who believes that the world is there to adore him :D  If he were human he'd be like Leslie Phillips in his movie persona, driving down Carnaby Street in a flash red convertible calling out "well, hellllooooo ladies" to passing dolly birds.  He was like this at 8 weeks old when we brought him home!  However, not long after we got him the doorhinge  of the plate warmer on the oven broke and the door fell off with a clatter when he was next to it.  This brim full of confidence, unflappable pup fled in terror at the noise.  And to this day he fears the noise of the cooker door even opening and closing and will scarper fast if he hears it.  The sort of bold pup whom you might think would be able to tolerate the sound of, for example, banging a couple of pot lids together.  The sort of pup who could hear gun shot and not bat an eyelid.

So to anyone thinking of adopting such methods I would ask you to think again.  The memory of a dog is long and even the most unflappable pup can remember a fright and be affected by it for life.

Sorry to go on, but I felt I had to put in my tuppence worth :)

Lesley

Firstly I apologise that I simply have no time to answer some of the responses but anna270787 is short with simple points which answer some others previously.

anna270787
yes Dr Roger Mugford does have a PhD in it as does his associate Dr Candy D'sa who works for him.

Ruth
Yes he does have a Phd which is why the term Dr can be used. Phd means Doctor of Philosophy and if someone wants a Phd (Doctor of Philosophy) but does not like writing forget it, if you like writing you can get one easy enough in whatever subject your interested in. Roger Mugfords Phd is in human psychology, he has no degree in canine behaviour, that's a commercial title that he and many people use.

Roger Mugford is a highly gifted businessman and entrepreneur, he made his name as a charismatic TV celebrity, I think that was in the 80's sometime, with slot called 'In the company of animals' I don't know which came first the PLC or the show but as I remember the couple of episodes I saw I don't remember dogs being the central point of it at all, could be wrong and I am sure I will be corrected if I am

Vic Stillwell is doing the same thing now, she will be the next big thing in dogs, she already is really everything else is becoming old hat in the publics mind and in buissness, as Roger Mugford will confirm, its what's in the publics mind that what counts.

No idea who Candy D'sa is, doubt if she knows Ruth Youth either.

anna270787
i am off to university next year to study animal behaviour and welfare - but a degree and experience is what matters nowadays

Ruth
That's the point I was trying to make to (I think) Hailey, there are no 'working 'qualifications' but degrees are selling points to some people.

anna270787
but a degree and experience is what matters nowadays

Ruth
I am not against those combinations.

What I am against is people suggesting that there is some kind of academic qualification which is a working qualification and people getting a degree and suggesting to people that the degree qualifies them in something when in fact they might have had some quiet little dog and suddenly be faced with some ruffian of a brute which is as far removed from the classroom as removed could be, theory and application are two different things.

Uni degrees simply mean you have taken the course offered and passed its exams. They are NOT a working qualification of any kind, by that I mean you cannot go to an employer and say I have a degree in film studies (or anything ) and I want a job as a film maker you would have to do many years training in real life, starting as a runner come tea person with the degree. Uni is not the real world, fun though it is.

That does not apply to someone whose employer sends/pays for them to go to Uni whilst they work training with the employer in the chosen field at the same time, surveyors and civil engineering have been doing this for quite some

CherylS
(Member of British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers).

Ruth
Its a 6 weeks course. I phoned them about 18 months ago to see what anyone needed to do their 6 weeks course.

They were a security firm in Stockport and then when the very recent commercial market in dog training was developing they brached into the commercial 'qualified dog trainer' buisness ( so people can say "I am a qualified member of BIPDT" the selling point to new dog owners), so they have their dog trainer section.

As Cheryl says, pet owners dont know what it is but it sounds good, so they buy the course and tell others "I have a BIPT qualified trainer".

When I called the BIPDT office I said I was interested in their courses as I wanted to set up in buisness as a dog trainer, the guy said "Thats excellent but you need to have had some connection with dogs".

I told him I had one dog which at the time of my call to him was around 7 years old, I did 6 weeks obedience training with the dog but it was a very quiet dog, never ran far on its own and seemd to naturaly do what I wanted of it. He told me that was ample experience, sent me the brochers etc.

Haveing said that, if you are enjoying the course then carry on, just make sure you are getting the results. I do know one who was a dog trainer long before they started selling these courses, he joined so he could put the letters after his name, as he says, well pet onwers buy letters not abilities these days.

He is a very good trainer and was long before BIPDT but these days he calls himself a behaviourist because the word has more commercial value than 'trainer', again as he puts it, "If they are daft enough to pay more for something which means nothing then thats what I call good buisness".

>Uni degrees simply mean you have taken the course offered and passed its exams. They are NOT a working qualification of any kind, by that I mean you cannot go to an employer and say I have a degree in film studies (or anything ) and I want a job as a film maker you would have to do many years training in real life, starting as a runner come tea person with the degree. Uni is not the real world, fun though it is

Actually there are exceptions to what you have said there.  There are certain degrees that do qualify you to work in particular professions.  You do have to train further but if the course has been an "applied" course you have all the "tools" to start working in that profession straight away. Although salary would reflect experience, competency would be tested on the course itself. However, these are at MSc not BSc level, nevertheless you can be working in a profession with a MSc and take your doctorate after. 

Edit : Just to add re your last post.  I didn't join the club because of the letters.  I heard about the club by word of mouth.  The trainer encourages a free day so that you can join in and try before you buy.  The club doesn't even need to advertise which is why it took me so to find out about it as few people I know have dogs.  It was a chance meeting with a dog owner in the park who took his dog there that recommended it.  The points that sold it to me were that it was fun, I did get results, the training is reward based and not punishment and the classes are held outside in a secured area which means training is in a more natural environment than village hall.

CherylS
There are certain degrees that do qualify you to work in particular professions.  You do have to train further but if the course has been an "applied" course you have all the "tools" to start working in that profession straight away.

Ruth
Yes, I was aware that with some degrees an employer may take some people on but I have no idea what they are, there are so many degrees.

Also what I forgot about the 'dog training' thing is:  What I am talking about is environmental and leagal requirement obedience training not any other kind of traing, the word training is bandied around all to much and could meanything.

Obedience training and competition training are two different things,environmental and leagal requirement obedience training is the difficult one, competion obedience is just utilisation of the working drives in one set repetetive rountine.

Liisa
I don't have a law degree but surely if you give information (in person, or via the internet) and you are proven (in a small claims court) that you have given information or advice that has made a situation worse, then you are liable and can be sued.  Or maybe that does not count for people on the internet who keep their identity anonymous?   Maybe I was wrong.  I will check with my friend tomorrow who lectures at my University in law.  Sorry if my post was misleading.

Ruth
Your not the only one who does it but I really do wish people would clarify what they mean by ( via the internet) you could mean that you have hired a service by an internet based PLC, or on a football supporters site and asked for dog advice.

In the case of some transaction between yourself and a PLC, in civil law, you would have to establish that you had the legal requirements of a contract, the contract would be open to legal definition and it would be on that definition which would decide if there was a case to answer or not.

Liisa
Or maybe that does not count for people on the internet who keep their identity anonymous?

Ruth
It does not make any difference in any way whether your identity is real or not, in any case that can be traced.

The way you wrote that bit, it sounds like you mean on a site like this. No you would have no case at all. If you did not only the person who wrote whatever would be liable but the ISP and the site where the info was given would also be liable, however. In reality there would be no case to answer, no contract exists (offer - acceptance).

Even if  you could by some quirk prove a contract existed you would then have to prove negligence, e.g If you asked me to tell you how to stop nuisance barking, then I said throw it off a high cliff and you did, you would not have a case against me for negligence as my advice stopped the dog from barking and you were 'unreasonable' for accepting such advice.

There are no 'fines' in these types of civil case, a civil court does not have the legal power to give a fine for these sort of things and it was wrong of you to frighten some people by suggesting they do, fines are for criminal offences which are dealt with by a criminal court, not civil.