The hunt don't hate foxes either ..where did you get that idea from?

I was referring to Michelles post.

Fiona

JG, if the pro hunters do not like being seen as a "bunch of toffs", then we anti hunting people certainly object to being labelled too!  I am a Mum of 2 (nearly 3), live in a nice village, in a nice house, a professional husband, and am Chair of the local Pre-School, I would not dream of hurting any animal - and no, I never squash so much as a spider, I am vegetarian and would seriously object to being likened to people who do those despicable things.
(And I wouldn't call the latest countryside protests peaceful ;) )

Chaliepud, that is exactly why I posted earlier that stereotyping is wrong. ;) There is every sort of person on both sides of the fence, as well as those sitting on it!
:)

"I have seen a post on this thread that says gamekeepers in some places simply shoot any old or injured animal (deer) humanely.  They are very experienced and so can normally do it in one shot.  I assume they could also do this for foxes. " - Alexanders

Once this bill has become law, the next step will be making illegal the shooting of game.   This in turn will render the position of gamekeeper as illegal as that of a hunstman will be.   Who do you suggest should then take responsibility fo culling of old/injured deer or foxes?

Who will then keep the drives, copses, hedges in good order?    Do you think the farmer will?   Many "farmers" these days are employed by large companies which have their eye on profit margins in the same way as captians of industry do.    We shall loose more hedges, so that larger and larger machines can work 24hr shifts in long lines at the crucial times - think of American prairies.   This is what I fear this bill proceeds.

Margot

Margot, I don't think anyone is questioning that sometimes animals need to be culled and so some method has to be employed, it is just that it should be a quick method which does not involve a long terrifying chase before being torn apart while still alive.  This does - I have seen the video footage as you can if you visit the RSPCA site.

I don't think you can reasonably say that gamekeepers will become illegal as a follow-on from this ban as gamekeepers are supposedly those who shoot the animals humanely.

Fiona

<<I have seen the video footage as you can if you visit the RSPCA site.>>

I saw the mountain of dogs photograph. Unfortunatly the RSPCA later had to admit it was all done with mirrors! I also saw the horses on hooks photo. Again, rather unfortunatly the RSPCA had to admit THEY put the horses on the hooks!

I do not trust anything which comes from the RSPCA these days!

John

Why would they make it up though John?

Fiona

Why did they forge those two Fiona? How do we know this is not forged too?

John

Maybe they know these things do happen, but have been unable to film the real thing (still not right to forge it though I know)

Forgery is forgery. I know I'm rich but the law would take exception to me making my own money just because I can't find the real stuff. No, if you remember they argued for a long time that BOTH sets of photos were genuine. Sorry but they lost all credability at a stroke! They cannot tell lies and then expect to be believed later.

John

What margot is rightly saying is that if and when this Ban becomes law and thats a big IF in my opinion!!!  then what is to stop the next law being to stop shooting of game (i.e. pheasant, partidge, duck and grouse) if that happens then there will be no need for a gamekeeper as there will be no game to keep!!!!

So can you tell me if there are no gamekeepers then who on earth is going to cull the old infirm and injured fox, deer etc. and keep numbers in check.

Did no-one see on the posting about Rabies in France that all wild mammals and loose pet dogs within 150 mile radius of where that dog was are to be destroyed.

So with all the pet passports animals coming in from France how long will it be before Rabies gets here.  When it does with the country overrun with fox, no dog or cat will be without risk of either contracting rabies or being destroyed because they are within an area where it has been found.

Fiona - if the next step is taken, which will be to ban the shooting of game birds, who do you think will employ gamekeepers?

This will be the next step - then fishing = then what?

Margot

Wanted to edit my last post but too late so must add this on.

I believe I am correct in saying that in certain states of Australia, cats that are outside designated areas are shot - because they may endanger native species.    After fishing is banned, who knows how long it will be before it is poposed that cats are eliminated because of the danger to native birds?   It may seem fanciful - but I think the only reason that we will be "allowed" pet cats and dogs by the middle of this century will be because of the profitable pet-food industry :(

I don't know where it will all lead, but I can only say that I for one am glad that this ban is going ahead. I know many of you on here do not agree, but I truly believe hunting with dogs is cruel.

With regard to the cats in Australia, with hindsight we probably would've done the same to grey squirrels had we known what we know now.  Australias towns are quite isolated so I suppose they are talking about cats that are obviously stray or wild.

The RSPC has spent years saying that they were quite happy about Shoots. A few months ago after the shooting press got hold of papers which originated at the RSPCA that organisation had to admit that a ban on shooting WAS on their agend! Mr Blair has also said on many occasions that the party line is shooting will not be touched. It also appears that his own party have not heard the party line!

John

I call the last god knows how many peacful - but they didn't make the news, did they.

I didnt think about the country shows, of course these are run by hunts.  My parents show their lurcher, i suppose Lurcher shows will be gone too as these are usually alongside the terrier shows at the country shows.

Its a real shame :(

DONE!
Dawn.

terrier racing too!!!

i wonder if the terrier & lurchers & hounds will change to a "show type" now theres no work for them to do!!!

I couldnt imagine a "show type" lurcher :D :D :D

How long is the hunting season and what do the dogs do for the rest of the year?

There's bad attitudes on both sides :(

I think i mentioned i used to be a supporter, then was anti for some years, then sat on the fence because i was swayed by the "it's the most humane way" argument. However it's still voting for what i would consider the lesser of 2 evils and that doesn't still make it right. Lamping and so on goes on a lot anyway. Foxes are snared and trapped already. Seeing the video of the exhausted fox dug out and thrown to the floor where it was either too terrified or too exhausted to move... and then it was killed by several hounds at once, and not that quickly ... that is not humane IMHO.

As i said before, i don't know what the answer is. I've been swayed a lot by what happened to Eric Ashby - that was total intimidation by the hunt and all he wanted was for them to stop going on to his land.Even the film he was making about badgers for the BBC was not completed because badgers deserted the sett he was filming  on his own land because the hunt kept ignoring his requests, so in my area at least the hunt are hardly whiter than white and in fact turned out to be nasty bullies!!! . He put up with their trespass for 20 years until he finally decided to take them to court after a deer was killed on his land (garden).

And also it's not just about foxes - there are other forms of hunting with dogs, not to mention hare coursing. I would like to see that stopped.

Lindsay
X

the main problem i see is that tony blair totally ignores the countryside,in many ways ,not just hunting,fuel tax/public transport,farmers/footmouth,etc etc
hes happy just to throw away a entire way of life & just dosent care,& dosent understand,
its not just a question of which sport next (shooting fishing etc),but what lifestyle,
i swear he should just close rural areas if he could,

Hi Sorry guys,

I live in a rural part ,used to ride when I was younger and I dont agree with foxhunting just my opinion ;-)
Having also lived in bleak parts of the Highlands of Scotland the foxes were cleanly shot by the local gamekeepers whose shooting skills were excellent probably through years of practice and there was no hunt.The gamekeepers were only called to the farms when they seem to have a problem in that particular area and managed fine without the use of horses and hounds.

Briony :-)

With the new 'Right to Roam' and the quite heavily forested areas of the over-crowded south of England (Sussex, Surrey etc) I think that shooting is likely to have too many human casualties.

No sorry I think the gamekeepers shot more foxes accurately,cleanly in one day to keep numbers under control.
Whereas fox hunting you might get a fox you might not so whats the point?
With people walking their dogs for their usual walk a load of horses and hounds comming from no where could also be potentially dangerous,speaking from experience :-)I also had hounds that would not do what they were told despite huntsman efforts they ran up side of my garden where my dogs were they ran allover the pavements between cars and peed over my car wheels and couple of the hounds narrowly missed by car and the lady was shook up as had to break hard,she had no idea the hunt was in the village and the hounds were everywhere :-(

I think their is potential danger in everything we do and go.

Briony :-)

i hope all antis will be prepared to offer a jobleess foxhound a home

I'm definitely anti, who is going to offer a foxhound a home, when all they've ever been taught is to kill poor foxes..it's not the dogs fault it's the huntsmen, they have made the dogs the way they are, so if (sadly) many of these dogs have to be PTS you only have yourselves to blame! 

I would offer a home to them, if they could be tamed to be pets, but sadly this isn't likely to happen.

Lets put the shoe on the other foot now, if a dozen or more foxes, chased your dog into the woods to exhaustion, then ripped it to pieces would you be so gleeful then as you are when this happens to a fox??

get a grip! foxes arent pets,but nasty mangey things,that kill chickens & sheep for fun,they need to be controlled & their control is interwoven into the fabric of rural communities,jobs social events ,everything. it is not just about hunting

I suspect you will be giving it back pretty damn sharpish - when it rips your house apart in 2 seconds flat.

im wondering if it could be arranged to deliver them all to the house of commons! i believe two peoiple know how to get in

if you think people are "gleeful" when they catch a fox,then you are mistaken.these are people that understand the balance of the countryside
i have seen glee though when an anti has jumped out on a horse causeing horse & rider to be badley hurt!

but hey why are you arguing for,its been banned now,so you should be very pleased with yourselfs

Michelle sorry to keep coming back to you, but as I posted, if there is no 'glee' when a fox is killed, why rub the bloodied tail across your head?

I also think any anti who is glad to see a rider and horse get hurt does much more harm than good.

Fiona

tradition!
they arent drinking its blood.

There are plenty of people in the countryside who appreciate foxes and enjoy watching them and then may later hunt those same foxes. I for one really don't believe everyone who follows the hunt does it out of bloodlust, although i do worry when people refer to them as "nasty" or "manky" because that to me isnt' respecting wildlife and so if they are not respected, how can we trust they will be killed humanely?

If they "have" to be killed, let it be humanely at least.

I really really like Briony's post about the gamekeepers shooting foxes and getting it right because they are experienced. It's good that they are called in by farmers only when there is  a problem. Seems fair to me.I know many have said that can't work but if only....

Lindsay
X

oh whatever! its banned now so whats the point?

Because, if you believe strongly enough in something there is always a point. Maybe the antis are not as passionately against it as we are for it?

Email sent, I'll get my OH to do it later too, form his account.

Sorry if this shows up twice my comp is having an off day lol

Totally on the fence here - BUT, one thing that annoys me is that if the government are so concerned about animal welfare then why are muslims in this country still allowed to kill animals in an inhumane way for 'halaal meat'?
Sarah

Political Correctness?

Double standards which is so typical of the Labour goverment.

Plus it wasn't in their election manifesto so doesn't have to happen before the next election, to try and keep the votes that they think they got because of banning hunting!!!

If they think yesterday was bad, then just wait for the Labour Party conference in Brighton, it will be Civil War.

What ever is this costing the tax payers, instead of that money being used for Pensions, Hospitals, Schools etc.

Leave the Countryside alone and concentrate on the important things!!!!

It surely can't be more important to supposedly save foxes, when a mate of mine parked his lorry yesterday outside a friends house, only to find 5 minutes later it had been nicked, taken down the road and all his Work Equipment taken from it, surely money should be spent on sorting out these sort of areas not making honest, law abiding people into criminals. 

I have the impression that the law abiding citizen of this country is always the loser.

I have sent my e-mail to Blair and will continue to send them on a regular basis every day as should we all to protect our democracy.  England is becoming a Nanny state ran by bigots.

Must just take issue on this " you don't understand the countryside" point of view in regard to anyone who is anti blood sports. I think it shows the utmost arrogance to make assumptions like this - the fact is that the hunt is a thundering nuisance to many people who do live in the countryside , they display the same kind of disregard for others that they are now condeming. Our beautiful countryside does not BELONG to them ! and we are all entitled to air our opinions on either rural or urban issues without being dismissed in such an insulting way.

If game fairs etc are popular enough then they will survive (if neccessary organised by some entrepeneur who spots a gap in the market !)- to suggest that hunting holds the whole of the rural fabric together is arrant nonsense and I suspect wishful thinking on the part of the hunting set who are now threatening to take their toys away  :-D

I was born in the countryside, live in the countryside and work in the countryside ( both here and abroad) -and my social life has NEVER depended on the activities of the local hunt.

Email sent to ban this sick sport . will pass the address on to the rescues to have there say too :)
why do fox hunting people like dogs chasing fox's to only be torn up ? if its just the chase why are the dogs trained to kill?

1, What happens to hounds that dont make the grade ? and trail hounds that retire ?.
2 ,can trail hounds be rehomed to be pets .
Those of you who dont want the sport to be banned but dont know the answer to the questions . you may want to listen what i have to say when i come back to give you the answer to the numberd questions ,
the first question is what id personly like to know why hunts men and women like about the hunt and kill of the fox and would you bring back badger bateing ect. is there points to the sport you dont agree with and why.

I will add that i will be fostering hounds when the ban goes threw . alot of  other rescuers will be doing the same till homes are found

I love the way that some of the pro-hunt posters cant help but sneer at the anti-hunt posters!  We are unemployed townies with no understanding of the countryside according to some  :)  Oh and dont forget that the pro-hunt are allowed to throw poles at the police, thats why the police are issued with helmets!

I am well aware that foxes are vermin that need controling, but face the fact chaps fox hunting is NOT an effective way of doing this.  It is the old/sick foxes that are usually killed, and how many are killed on the average hunt?  Not exactly controlling the vermin is it? 
It is a barbaric sport that has NO place in 2004.

Any comments on the following :-

"One of the Midland's most recognised fox hunts has been secretly filmed holding a fox captive in a specially designed chamber before subjecting it to a prolonged 'dig out' involving a huntsman, hounds and terrier men armed with spades, pitchforks and drain rods.

The unprecedented film, showing scenes akin to the controversial 'canned' hunting of big game in Africa, was obtained during a major undercover investigation into the activities of the Croome and West Warwickshire Fox Hounds (1). It reveals a catalogue of fresh video evidence incontrovertibly proving that fox hunting is an elaborate game that has nothing to do with pest control - and everything to do with killing for sport.

During a four-month operation, League Against Cruel Sports investigators infiltrated the Croome Fox Hounds and gathered extensive evidence of hunt staff attempting to ensure a ready supply of foxes to chase and an exhilarating experience for paying participants. Covert film shows hunt officials systematically making use of a network of specially constructed artificial earths in a secretive process designed to source, locate, chase and kill foxes for sport. "

Anybody like to defend this in the name of their beloved "sport"

What you are referring to is not current news Tim, is it?   I'm that its about 4 or 5 years old.   In NO way do I condone what you have reported -  but you are just adding to stereotypes.
Margot

What you are referring to is not current news Tim, is it?   I'm sure that its about 4 or 5 years old, and that people were prosecuted.  Let me add that in NO way do I condone what you have reported -  but you are just adding to stereotypes.
Margot

Margot, this was April 2004, so current by my standards.  In what way am I just adding to stereotypes? Just reporting documented facts.

Tim - your posts might have had a shred of credibility had you not been such a complete and utter tosser beforehand :)

Oh dear, take it personal insults are the only way you could respond.  Speaks volumes.