For people who worked for companies such as Turner Newell, later taken over by Federal Mogal who suddenly find their pensions no longer exist, the government pension legislation was just about their last hope of any sort of retirement. They will be highly impressed to find the fox dies in a different way whilst they are trying to live without the pension they paid for. Still, they will be pleased that Tony Banks is happy.

Regards, John

This debate could go on for eternity with very few minds being changed one iota.  Just as people have different views about the monarchy or politics in general or troops in Iraq........

BUT, my opinion is .....  I cannot totally disagree that there is a need to control the fox population, although I do feel that there are better ways than hunting as it is now.  In my eyes what would be better, would be people paid to do a job, just like pest controllers paid to deal with rats etc.  There would be legislation in place to make sure it wasn't a "voyeuristic sport", and to be sure that kills were as clean as possible, yes, people would still be against it, and to be honest I don't think I would be totally happy, but I would feel better knowing were doing it, and doing it properly, even if we had to pay higher taxes, because it was their job, rather than a way to fill a Sunday morning, there are plenty of other social, sporting activities available.

On a slightly different tangent, I remember hearing something on the radio some time ago (possibly years) regarding baiting foxes with something that sterilises them, was this ever tried, and was it successful at all?

Hayley

>baiting foxes with something that sterilises them, was this ever tried, and was it successful at all?<

I don't know anything about this. Can you recall how they were going to ensure that it only affected foxes, and not any other animal who came across it, including our dogs?

I truly can't remember JG, just remember that it seemed a good idea at the time, maybe it involved putting the bait in known fox holes?

Baiting foxes with a birth control agent is risky. You must use something which is atractive to the fox or it will never accept it. If it's nice then you could easily find that too many foxes have taken it and the fox population is decimated. Once numbers get below a certain point the gene pool will be too small for the animal to servive. Government organisations are never good at that kind of thing! There was a case only this year where a team of shooters were helicoptered into a deer estate in Scotland because they said the estate had not culled enough deer. The estate argued that the deer population was sustainably but the authorities culled them anyway. Years of experience count for nothing when a government department speaks.

Regards, John

To shoot foxes an experienced country person would sit by their regular runs quietly early in the morning or at dusk and would not need to shoot them from a long distance and to any decent shot that is an easy target. A far better means of control, no ceremony, just job done. Certainly no need for beaters, dogs, red coats or a sherry to start.
Amos

With the recently-introduced firearms regulations, there genuinely aren't enough people qualified and available to do the job ...

You make it sound easy Amos but it is anything but. I'm in the woods regulaly but only see foxes possibly three or four times in a year. I hunted up a wood on several occasions during the summer to try to reduce the virmin. We had some guns standing around the edges but we only saw one fox and the guns never got a clear shot at that. This was in the same wood the hunt found six just last week! The best chance is lamping and so far this year two people have been shot during lamping sessions, one died!

Sorry to saw this but far and away the safest is to hunt with dogs. 

Regards, John

John, you can come and see foxes in my garden every night :( They often keep me awake :(

Daisy

The urban fox is possibly the one most likely to do the damage when Rabies gets here Daisy. The do gooders capture them and release them into the countryside but unfortunatly the poor fox cannot cope with it. Without its usual source of food, dustbins, it starves to death.

Regards, John

I believe the wording of the Hunting with Dogs bill would make it an offense to have PLANNED to take your dog out to hunt, therefore if your dog caught and killed a rabbit 'accidentally' then you would have not broken the law( and after all if it was just you and your dog out for a walk it would be pretty difficult for anyone to prove that you had gone out hunting instead of a nice walk ! ) - in Scotland where there has been a ban in place for some time not one person has been prosected because their dog caught a rabbit whilst off the lead !.  Of course if you have large pack of hounds, terriers and a group of people on horse back it would be pretty difficult to prove that your sole intention was not hunting !.

I find it interesting that those who support hunting shy away from admitting that they do it as a form of entertainment. An interesting question : in the new Forest there are wild deer and wild ponies , the deer are culled by hunting with dogs imagine the outcry if the ponies were culled in the same way ! it would be completely unacceptable just as  blood 'sports' are to the overwhelming majority of the population.

Teri may be right in saying that foxes should be culled by 'professionals'  if this is indeed the most humane method of dealing with them, this would also provide work for some of the hounds but  would only need a couple of licensed people who should be regularly inspected to ensure that they are dispatching the foxes the quickest way possible. Hunting ( and shooting) as sports should be banned - there is enough death in the world without using it as a way of amusing yourself for a few hours !.

I cant believe people actually insert the word "enjoy" inbetween hunting,blood sport,cruelty,torture etc. Fox hunting or hunting down any animal to the point of exhaustion and letting a dog rip it apart or whatever is totally sickening and extremely arcaic.
I'm shocked and surprised that this disgusting act had not been banned 100 years ago,we live in a civilised world now where things such as this should not still be going on! How any animal lover could condone this is beyond me,i love all animals and i cant stand the thought of any one of them suffering and to see the look on the faces of the blood thirsty swines chasing down those poor foxes atop their horses just makes me cringe. There has got to be another more humane way to treat this problem??? We used to have a fox overpopulation here and they were all poisoned which i dont agree with either,it is just as bad as hunting them down.

Someone said that the word "sport" puts people off,well it does put me off,no animal should be made to suffer for the sake of some sicko's warped idea of sport!

How would you control them Ozzie?
Dawn.

<we live in a civilised world now....>

Oh really, don't you watch the news?

All I have seen for the past few years is humans finding more diabolical and sadistic ways to kill each other and all our politicians are concerned about is to ban the hunting of wild mammals with dogs!

I would not mind if people were not such hypocrites. It is okay to ritually slaughter animals because it is a religious ceremony and we cannot be seen to be bigots, its okay to process chickens through concentration camps because we must have cheap food. Its okay to castrate pigs without anaesthetic or dock lambs tails (but not dogs!), but don't let people hunt foxes with either a clean kill or escape at the end of the hunt because it is barbaric.
Let them instead be shot, snared or gassed, it is much more humane!

Talk about double standards.

I have no problem with people wishing to ban hunting if they are not part of this hypocrisy. If they do not eat meat or animal products, wear leather clothes or shoes then they have my respect.

The truth is the average British citizen doesn't really know or care about hunting and would not put it high on a list of government prorities.

snomaes

I like that post - very well put.

trevor said >>>"I believe the wording of the Hunting with Dogs bill would make it an offense to have PLANNED "

oh thats ok then cos i definitly wouldnt plan to actually go out hunting...it would just sort of happen accidentally when we weere excercising hounds!! :)

I'd believe you Sam, honest :(

Trevor said>>> "in the new Forest there are wild deer and wild ponies , the deer are culled by hunting "

Um I believe the newforest buck hounds were disbanded some years ago !

"Um I believe the newforest buck hounds were disbanded some years ago "

surely it's the principle at stake here - if it's acceptable to hunt down deer why is it not acceptable to hunt down wild ponies ? ( and no i'm certainly not advocating that !).

The comparisons with animals that are slaughtered for food and the cruelties that go on within that industry are not valid because of the fundamental reason behind this ban - hunting with dogs is done as a SPORT - battery chickens are not kept this way for entertainment and their death is not reduced to a voyeuristic spectacle.

My job involves negotiating with governments around the world to try and stop the worst kinds of animal cruelty - the most common comment that is said to me is " well the English hunt foxes don't they - that too is barbaric ".

It must be time for any country that calls itself civilised to move away from using animals in this way.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

You may see it as a sport - around here its seen as a necessity.

But if you cannot get basic facts right Trevor (IE the new forest buck hounds do not even exist!), then what hope for the rest of your comments?
newforest ponies belong to commoners & are controlled undert their breeding policy......deer are not...hence they need to be culled.

>hunting with dogs is done as a SPORT

Forgive me for being dense (it's been a long day!) but I'm getting the impression that it's not hunting with hounds that people object to, it's the fact that other people (the ones who pay the hunt staff) go along too? Is that correct?

Are there any wild ponies in this country? Certainly all the ones in the New Forest are owned, and there are regular sales of surplus stock. It's the same reason why nobody hunts cattle or sheep - they aren't wild, their numbers are controlled, and they aren't pests.

Sadly Trevor,

It would seem that regardless of how eloquently, clearly and repeatedly the basic subject matter is explained, it is (somehow) falling on deaf ears or being twisted into a completely separate issue.

I've yet to read a post that alludes to WHY the "sport" of fox hunting is so enjoyable. 

Teri   

I have tried to explain why it is essential Teri. As to whether it is enjoyable, I'm an engineer and yes, I enjoy my job!

Regards, John

Hi John,

Nice to see a bit of humour -  and you are always so polite and pleasant!

For the record, I haven't actually asked why it is essential - however I am always glad to hear an engineer happy in his work ;-)

Regards, Teri

I always was a little mad Teri, but my attitude is, if you are going to spend most of your waking life working you better be doing something you enjoy! If I was able to live my life all over again I dont think there would be many changes in it. (With the possible exception that I would start with my Labradors earlier in my life without so many false starts with other breeds :) )

Regards, John

>I've yet to read a post that alludes to WHY the "sport" of fox hunting is so enjoyable.

Okay. I don't ride to hounds, but I often foot-follow, and speak to those who do ride. It is fun meeting up with other friendly people. It's fascinating watching hounds work the scent - the way their song changes when they find the scent. It's not done at breakneck speed over a pre-arranged course - you never know where the scent is going to lead. My riding friends tell me that from their point of view a kill is unimportant - even if hounds do kill the field hardly ever sees it anyway. That's not what they go for. And also, if something has got to be done (and it does need doing) what is wrong with enjoying your job? Just out of interest, what is it that you enjoy about your hobby (whatever that may be)?

Many of the people who allow the hunt to ride over their land will not allow drag-hunting over it because there is no benefit to the farmer in that, so that generally is not a viable alternative.

That's part of what makes it fun for me - it will affect others differently. So perhaps you will reciprocate and say exactly what it is (because I keep asking) that other people object to the most.

>My riding friends tell me that from their point of view a kill is unimportant - even if hounds do kill the field hardly ever sees it anyway.

When I hunted a number of years ago I never witnessed a kill
I was aged from about 15 to 17 when I hunted - there was no other experience in riding that matched the "thrill" of riding in a group like that, of not knowing where you'd head to, of seeing the hounds work, of seeing the huntsmans control over the pack, of seeing such experienced riders tackle what seemed impossible obstacles to me while I went through the gate ;)
To me it wasn't about "the kill" but of course I knew that was the object of the day.
My heart, even now, still beats a little quicker when I see the Hunt

Hi Jeangenie - and THANK YOU :-)  :-)  :-)

At Last, after almost 150 posts, you are the first person to give the slightest insight into why someone would enjoy the *sport* of fox hunting!

OK, Call me old fashioned - no, perhaps futuristic is more appropriate in this thread ;-) - but off hand I think there are a multitude of ways to have  >fun meeting up with other friendly people< that don't involve participating in a non professional capacity with the slaughter of animals.

Aren't there tracking events to enjoy with dogs? Lure coursing? Admittedly not with fox hounds and perhaps lacking >their song changes when they find the scent<   Nevertheless enjoyable gatherings of like minded people in a rural environment.

>if something has got to be done (and it does need doing) what is wrong with enjoying your job?<  -  I agree with you JG, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it!  If it's their JOB!  So, by all means, let the masters of the hounds and trained huntsmen ensure that it is done as quickly and painlessly as possible - and they should be paid a proper wage for their hire - not be dependent on subscriptions. 

>Just out of interest, what is it that you enjoy about your hobby (whatever that may be)?<   Colours, textures, inspiration from nature, photographs, architecture, travel, general surroundings - my hobby is interior design.

>So perhaps you will reciprocate and say exactly what it is (because I keep asking) that other people object to the most<

Of course, JG, although I'll think you may find that I have explained this before ;-)  It is NOT the fact that professional huntsmen with specifically trained hounds carry out the essential culling of over population of foxes in the UK farming communities that upsets the general public.  It is the image of a band of riders, (ie. non-professional handlers of the hound pack) following the hunt and enjoying it as a *sporting activity* that does.  Were there never a *hobby* faction to fox hunting in modern society, this would not be nearly such an emotive issue.   If it were left to the huntsmen and hounds alone - and let's face it they wouldn't exactly need the red jackets then <LOL> - it would look a lot less like a celebration of a fox being shredded.

I genuinely hope that, regardless of personal opinions on the subject, you can at least understand the point I am making - and I appreciate you making the effort to be so specific too.

Regards, Teri

So, have I understood this right? It's not the fact that hounds are used to kill foxes that people object to most, it's the fact that other people accompany them - literally 'go along for the ride'? Is that why adults call young children 'scum'?

And the fact that the huntsmen wear the red coats? I don't mean to sound rude, but I think that is somewhat silly - to want to ban something because you don't like the clothes!

And no, lure coursing is completely different - that is done with sighthounds over a very short distance. It is more on a par with greyhound racing.

But thank you for trying to explain your objections. I may not agree with your points, but at least now I know what they are. :)

The huntsman only wear the red coats to distinguish them from the rest of the field. This ensures that others do not go in front of them and get too close to the hounds.

We could say the same about you - despite being offered information on hunting in an eloquent, clear and repeated manner, it is (somehow) falling on deaf ears.

beaters?????  Cant say I have come across them out hunting before!!:)

Just caught up with this - wish Blair could have a download of these arguements.

And it was he who sent human beings to be killed in a war in Iraq.    But human life obviously not so precious to him as the life of a predatory fox.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I reluctantly feel that hunting *may* be the best way to kill a fox although i dislike the idea of any animal being killed. If it really has to happen and hunting with hounds is the only way, then so be it and i would accept that.

However, there are so many things that make me very uncomfortable when the subject comesup. (Before anyone says i know nothing, i used to support hunting for many years because i was so involved with horses and i have also followed the hunt - unusually both as a supporter on foot  and later as a protester so i probably have a fairly unique postion compared to some people).

I live close to the New Forest and often visit an area lived in by the renowned photographer Eric Ashby, who was a very shy and gentle man with a big garden in the midst of the hunting territory in the forest. He put up with the hunt coming onto his land for many years, i believe it was over 20 until several things happend to cause him to take a stand: a deer was killed in his garden, and the hunt also disrupted the badgers' sett on his land and the badgers, who he was filmimg for the BBC, left the sett. The man was distraught as he had made wildlife his life. He made the first colour wildlife film for television and helped to bring wildlife to many who had never seen it in this close up way before. He used always wild animals and worked with patience to get the shots he wanted.It was he who filmed The Private Life of the Fox, a stunning film in its time.

The film for the BBC had to be cancelled and he won a case against the hunt which had to pay damages to him. The hunt then set up a big fence around his garden and land so that effectively no wildlife could go in and out as it used to. I was totally disgusted at this because it was so obviously intimidation. Hunt followers also taunted him and left dead and mutilated foxes and other animals in his garden. I remember many reports from the local paper and photos. HIs place was called "Stalag Ashby" by the locals :(

It was so unfair because the hunt were at fault in the first place and just because one man had courage to take a stand  - not just because of his wildlife but ALSO because his own livelihood was threatened, he was intimidated.

I have also been unhappy about the fact that occasionally men associated with hunts have been convicted of badger baiting. One can onlyh hope that the hunt supporters feel the same disgust as i do. In the TV discussion a few years back, i also felt angered at the film of a huntsman attempting to drown a stag by holding its head underwater - drowning is  a terrible death, where is the mercy and love for and respect for nature and wildlife? Where was the gun?

I have many friends on both sides of the debate and I can see both  sides, so it makes it hard for me to join the debate, but at the end of the day i have to be true to what i believe, and that is that no animal should suffer. Therefore if foxes have to be killed and hunting with hounds is truly the kindest way...

I'm not sure the fox is always killed outright althought that may often be the case. A lead hound may bowl it over but if there are several hounds on it at once what happens then? Ive never seen a kill but common sense suggests that in that situation it may take a bit longer to die.

I'd actually feel better if i was convinced hunting with hounds was the best way, but i am just not sure.

Lindsay
X

For the first time in my 26 years I saw two foxes the other morning and was truly amazed, I stood and watched them for ages.  It is so unusual to see anything other than rabbits and the occasional deer (and I live in the country) that I was totally dumb founded and rooted to the spot.  What I saw were two creatures living free in the wild living as they should and hunting for food BUT I also know the other side to these animals, the side that breaks into chicken runs and kills for what appears to be "fun" because they dont always take all that they kill :(

I have never been on a fox hunt so I cant be sure in my decsion that I agree with it but from reading various stuff and speaking to people on BOTH sides I am 99% sure that I agree with it (yes that 1% is thinking ahhhh cute cudley foxy :-o )

What I would like to say to all these people who disagree with they killing of "innocent" foxes is do you eat meat? do you know where you meat comes from ?  I can guarantee that most of you eat meat which comes from an intensive farmed situation - a pig kept in an indoor unit to live un-naturally on mesh, unable to rear their young in a natural way or even clean themselves as they are unable to turn around, battery hens cramped in cages, cows whose young are taken at a few days old who call for their babies in such a woeful way just like you if your baby was taken from you :(  I could go on, and before anyone asks, yes I have first hand experience of this.  This is what Tony blair should make priority, not the hunting of a fox who has led a NATURAL and FREE life, of the hunting of a rabbit by a dog which has also led a NATURAL and FREE life.  I agree with the pro hunting slogan seen around the country fairs this weekend "B*****ks to Blair " I just wish I could get hold of a badge - I would wear it with pride :)

We have the calf thing in the field next to ours - its very upsetting the way the cows call for them, it goes on for hours :( :(

I think you're absolutely right, blondebird. I think this Government has got its priorities very wrong, and there are many far more important issues that need addressing first. I also believe that the welfare of the millions of food animals in the country (and their deaths) is also of greater priority, if only because of the numbers involved. Slaughterhouses, both 'secular' and religious, are guilty of greater cruelty to animals than hounds to a fox.

But they don't get votes :(

Which is what it all boils down to. :(

Whilst I am in favour of hunting, some of the pro-hunting arguments can be a little tenuous!

Fox control - Yes agreed in hill country hunting forms a vital pest control purpose. However, in places like Leicestershire & Rutland foxes are encouraged and relatively protected to enable hunting. Lamping and terrier work are far more effective means of controlling fox numbers. Many gamekeepers are told to leave foxes alone so that hunting can take place.

In many parts of the country hunting is probably the best friend that the fox can have. Trust me, without the interests of the hunt to protect them fox numbers will see a significant decline in some areas.

My own view is that whether man gets directly involved or not a fox is going to die in unpleasant circumstances in one way or another. Retirement homes or even euthenasia are not an option!

Interestingly, those that hunt seem to get the most abuse for 'blood-lust' even though they are probably the least likely of any field sport followers to see, or be involved with, the 'business-end' of the kill.

>My own view is that whether man gets directly involved or not a fox is going to die in unpleasant circumstances in one way or another. Retirement homes or even euthenasia are not an option!

An excellent point, Havoc.

Will pm you with where you can get a badge :)

:) thanks

Me too.

How many people would want to ban fox hunting if the fox resembled a giant flea or spider? or something else unattractive?

If any of you have witnessed the carnage left by a fox in a field of ewes and lambs or chicken coup or even pet rabit hutch maybe you'd be less sympathetic , the fox will kill everything not just the food it needs to live. 

How many of those who oppose hunting, will leave poison down for rats and mice? will kill fleas or mites on your dogs, kill garden pests or nesting wasps if its inconvenient?

You can't be selective over the ethics of killing either you do or you don't, if you do for any reason then don't critisise others.  Everything has the right to live, worms, fleas, foxes etc but if we choose to end the lives of certain creatures then we cannot condone those who choose to end the lives of nice looking creatures.  Don't forget some of these creatures we kill die much worse deaths than the fox.

Sharon

Good points, Sharon. I know many people who are anti-hunt are happy to have someone come out and poison rats - and that's a slow, painful death. Are there protestors calling the council's 'pest control operatives' "Scum"? Not that I've noticed.

I'm surprised no-one has said we could give the fox population something like Mixy in the rabbits :rolleyes:
We could then walk round the countryside and see them suffer like the rabbits my dogs have been catching regularly recently on my land that I have to then "despatch" :(

SaraW - who has hunted in the past and would again if circumstances allowed

Thought I would count up how many on this thread are against the ban and how many are for it.

Sort of a little poll of Champdoggers.

At my count (mind my maths leave a lot to  be desired) I make it 21 against the ban and 7 for it.

If that is a reasonable cross section then it surely seems that the majority don't want it to happen!!