Absolutely!

Sorry, forgot to include cost, it was (from memory) about £115

> I told you about 5 different tests applicable to your breed

Turns out they aren't a problem in my breed though upon further research so no they are not really applicable, it's just testing for testings sake.

> Ask 10 different breeders and I suspect you will get at least 5 different answers.

And there will be a firm set that they agree on - perhaps there is your 'minimum' requirements.

> They then recommend some other tests which are applicable to the breed in question

They don't recommend, they say they should be considered - and that is where the lack of clarity is - do people need to do them or not.

> Prove it

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=4088

http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/uploads/1/5/9/2/15927418/fbcehealthschemesummary2019.pdf (page 6 gives recommendations on what is acceptable)

That's where you start if you want ot be a responsible breeder of French Bulldogs. It took me less than 5 minutes. You then go and talk to people who breed, people who show, people who run the breed club, and you find out more. If you tell me to go and do that you probably won't like the response

I repeat, there is no excuse and I stand by that.

Mark R:  Bundle Testing is initially an answer.  The price for such is £135 (Assured Breeders have discount) ie £120 per bundle irrespective of breed but only the ones highlighted earlier on sleeping_lions list are eligable.  Every other breed has to take responsibility for the cost by individual test.

"Turns out they aren't a problem in my breed though upon further research so no they are not really applicable, it's just testing for testings sake."

I agree with Sleeping Lion - test first and then decide if it is a problem don't decide beforehand.

"They don't recommend, they say they should be considered - and that is where the lack of clarity is - do people need to do them or not."

Your are the expert in your breed surely you know ? Or maybe see my answer above.

It took me less than 5 minutes.

To use google and post a couple of links. Yes that is the easy bit we can all do that.

Now distill that information into a set of coherent rules that can be appled fairly and squarely across the board and determine whether a breeder, stud dog or litter is worthy of inclusion on a website thet promotes responsible dog breeding.

"You then go and talk to people who breed, people who show, people who run the breed club, and you find out more. If you tell me to go and do that you probably won't like the response"

What because to get it is slighly harder than you first claimed when you said "but it really is that simple to find out what you can test for as a general rule"

I think you've missed my previous post about testing for main conditions, it is easy enough now with bundles to test for 'all' conditions, even those that aren't relevant to Labradors.  Who knows, in other countries there may be even more tests that have been developed that I don't know about, but as far as I know, the 5 main conditions, which are included in the test bundle, are the ones I'm most bothered about, and want to know the results for.  I do not condone testing for the sake of testing.

> I agree with Sleeping Lion - test first and then decide if it is a problem don't decide beforehand.

Your prerogative

> Your are the expert in your breed surely you know ? Or maybe see my answer above.<br />

I have never claimed I was an expert, I am far from it.

> To use google and post a couple of links. Yes that is the easy bit we can all do that.

But it's quite obvious that a lot of breeders don't! Or they do and just ignore what they find, then say it's difficult to find it out!

> Now distill that information into a set of coherent rules that can be appled fairly and squarely across the board and determine whether a breeder, stud dog or litter is worthy of inclusion on a website thet promotes responsible dog breeding.

I never said that was easy either, I specifically said in an earlier post that it would be hard.

> What because to get it is slighly harder than you first claimed when you said "but it really is that simple to find out what you can test for as a general rule"

No because I don't have French Bulldogs and don't need too... If I did, I would do it.

It is simple to find the advice. It may not be overly clear at times, which is what needs addressing but it is there, a couple of clicks away.

Perhaps CD should speak to breed clubs and the like and try to come up with a set of criteria that would fit with the responsible breeding ideal that you push rather than making the excuse that it's too difficult.

"the 5 main conditions"

as defined by who ?

The breed clubs

Sleepng-lion:  Number Over Breeding:  As an experienced breeder of Labrador Retrievers, I thought you would be aware of this fact and indeed fellow posters on this forum have confirmed it as early as in the last 10 days,
The tests of KC Combi Package does not offer testing for 150 conditions, only the ones highlighted in your post regarding YOUR perception of what is relevant.  Whoever told you SD2 was more prevelant in 'working 'lines'?.  As already stated all Labradors come from the same blood/genetic pool originally so where is the'cut off' that working lines are more prevalent and leads you ro believe your girls are immune?  Just to clear things up for someone who is very much on the breeder learning spectrum - is it necessary for your dogs or not?  So many different opinions - are you surprised 'new comers' can't follow anyone's advice in reality?

"Perhaps CD should speak to breed clubs and the like and try to come up with a set of criteria that would fit with the responsible breeding ideal that you push rather than making the excuse that it's too difficult."

Speak to the Kc - One answer
Speak to the breed clubs - A different answer
Speak to breeders on here - Another different answer.

Easy isn't it

> The breed clubs

So not the Kc then ?

Christ I never said defining the criteria for advertising on CD was easy! I said it was easy to find the information that was out there.

Do all three Mark. Make your decision and prove that CD really is all about promoting responsible breeding and not just the money, because at the moment it seriously looks like the latter. Take a stand, step up and lead the way.

Sleeping_Lion:  You don't believe in testing for testings sake: Mmm.  That's why you have had testing for 150 conditions ?

SD2 and PRA are more prevalent in working lines, it's a simple fact, anyone in the breed who doesn't know this is showing a huge lack of knowledge. 

I've had three litters over 8 years (12 years of planning), not a huge amount of experience, but at least I have done my research, and not claimed to be experienced and all knowing.  Labradors are a numerous breed, yes, but there are very few litters that are well bred, and a huge demand for well bred puppies, hence some breeders having people on waiting lists for years prior to pups being on the ground.  The 5 conditions I have highlighted are the 5 main conditions recommended to test for by the breed council, google it! 

I take it you've hacked my email account and can see the list of over 150 genetic conditions that my bitch was tested for?  I've already said all are not relevant to Labradors, but yes, some bundles do include many, many more tests than is required for the breed that is being tested for. 

Where have I said my girls are 'immune' - it's a known fact that working lines, because of the split in lines with Labradors, are more prone to some conditions, and show bred are more prone to other conditions, yet again, maybe you need to sit and do a bit of research rather than just post things that show a lack of knowledge. 

The advice is simple, health test your dogs according to the current guidance from the KC and breed clubs/breed council, which is all easily available on the internet these days, use information like the EBV and CoI, and don't breed when you have failed health test results.  Perhaps you should bear that in mind. 

In answer to your question about my youngster, pending health test results, how she matures and whether she is a good example of the breed, yes I will breed on, I have people waiting until 2024 for a litter right now, and more wanting to go on a waiting list for a potential 2nd litter, all hypothetical until she's grown up, and, should I find she's not suitable to breed on from, I will help my waiting list find a puppy elsewhere, from someone who gives the same amount of care when it comes to breeding.  BUT I am under no illusions that she is such a unique Labrador that I MUST breed on, she's great, but there are many other options should she not be suitable to breed on from.

Are you a newcomer?  Your posts on another website states 17 years breeding, I have a screen shot to remind you if you've forgotten about it.

Because it was cheaper to test for a whole bundle than 5 individual conditions

Masajackrussell:  Your latest message to Mark R:  You have never said the criteria for advertising on CD is easy however, looking at all of your posts - it is only show people who test for every conceivable thing that will be allowed on CD site.  Would that be your 'elite' group of show people who pay nothing toward the upkeep of the site or I am allowed as a gun dog worker who tests and pays an annual fee for the privilage?  'Christ' - that is offensive to me as a christian & church organist to take the Lord's name in vain - blasphemy but that is an entirely differntt subject - apologies.

"CD really is all about promoting responsible breeding and not just the money, because at the moment it seriously looks like the latter."

That is a pretty serious, bordering on libellous. allegation so would you care to to justify it ?

Can I just ask, nothing to do with the current conversation as such, but the new feature that shows price, does that take into account the adverts that don't show price? 

Out of 30 litters at the minute (for Labrador puppies) only 10 have prices for pups (or they did when I last looked) and the average price was £1,810 - which is astranomically high.  Slightly off topic but what is CD doing to combat the excessive price rises with pups during Covid-19?  Is it something you're warning potential puppy buyers about or are you taking more pro-active approaches?  Just interested with everything that has gone off over the last few months.

It is the impression that CD is giving off Mark. The tagline 'Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding' does not correlate with allowing advertising of dogs and litters that are not responsibly bred (i.e. health tested with acceptable results and ideally worked or shown to prove their quality).

The fact that CD lets anybody and everybody pay to advertise makes me think that the main aim of the website has deviated from what I expect was the original one (hence the tagline).

This is just my personal opinion, however, if that is how I see it perhaps others do too.

"Can I just ask, nothing to do with the current conversation as such, but the new feature that shows price, does that take into account the adverts that don't show price? "

It might be best to start a new thread if you want to discuss the current puppy prices.

I just thought I'd ask, as it kind of fits in but half doesn't, with the discussion about responsible breeding, health tests etc.

"with allowing advertising of dogs and litters that are not responsibly bred (i.e. health tested with acceptable results and ideally worked or shown to prove their quality)."

Is that a universally accepted defintion of responsibly bred or one you have just made up ?

"The fact that CD lets anybody and everybody pay to advertise"

Another pretty serious, bordering on libellous. allegation so would you care to to justify it ?

"I just thought I'd ask, as it kind of fits in but half doesn't, with the discussion about responsible breeding, health tests etc."

I agree it is related but rather than derail a thread regarding health testing it is better served in its own thread

I don't need to justify anything Mark, it is just my opinion that I am entitled to have. It is an impression I am getting from your site and your responses on here. You are more than welcome to correct me if you do in fact have criteria that people have to meet before they can advertise. I am happy to accept that my opinion could be wrong but surely you should be appreciating feedback on your business?

> Is that a universally accepted defintion of responsibly bred or one you have just made up ?

It is quite a widely accepted position I believe, certainly one held by people within my circle. We have already agreed there is no universal rule.

"You are more than welcome to correct me if you do in fact have criteria that people have to meet before they can advertise"

You yourself are a member and therefore agreed to the following Ts & Cs before you joined :

https://www.champdogs.co.uk/info/conditions

Terms and Conditions of Membership
Champdogs membership is open to non-commercial dog breeders and owners. We do not accept membership applications from commercial breeders or puppy dealers.
We expect all breeders on Champdogs to adhere to the relevant breed society/club ethics and expect all the appropriate health checks for their breed to be performed.
No dog or bitch owned by any member shall be mated with any other breed or with unregistered stock. Breeders found to carry out this practice will be removed. Exception: At times the KC grants permission for the inter-breeding of pedigree dogs in set circumstances.
We reserve the right to refuse or terminate membership of any breeder found to not be acting in the best interests of their dogs. In particular any breeder found to be breeding from an underage bitch or having two litters from the same bitch within an 11 month period will be removed.
Any breeder who knowingly breeds from a dog with unacceptable health test results will be removed.
Any breeder who deliberately breeds to produce non-standard colours will be removed. Exception: Under certain circumstances we will may not remove a breeder who has good reason to breed non-standard colours as long as health is the primary consideration in the mating and the colour is a secondary factor. However any such litters will not be allowed to be listed on Champdogs.
Breeders must set the price of a puppy at a level which fairly reflects the time spent and costs incurred in raising the litter. We will remove any breeder who seeks to profiteer by charging an inflated price for any reason.
Champdogs considers the current Kennel Club age limit of 12 months far too young for a bitch to be bred from. We apply a minimum age limit at the date of whelping of 18 months for toy breeds and 24 months for all other breeds unless the relevant national breed club stipulates a different age.
We will not list a litter where the sire of the litter is aged under 12 months at the time of mating.
Bitches will not produce more than 4 litters in total nor will be bred from after they have reached 8 years of age.
We expect all members to offer support and guidance to their puppy purchasers throughout the lifetime of the dog.
Important Note : The Affix field may only be be used for a single registered National Kennel Club Affix. This may optionally be followed by your breed. eg. Myatuk Alaskan Malamutes. Your affix will be verified with the Kennel Club before your details are published on the site. If you do not have a recognised affix then the affix the field must be left blank.
It is your responsibility to ensure a valid email address is provided in your records. Members who do not maintain a valid email address will have their membership cancelled and their details removed.
Multiple sign-ups by a single person are prohibited. If you have forgotten your id and password please contact us and do not join again. Where a person has joined multiple times ALL their listings will be removed.
All members must list their surname, include a full postal address and phone number.
The website listed in your records must be your own non-commercial dog related website.
It is your responsibility to ensure that all information on your account is accurate and true.
Members may not use their "Website Link Text" for advertising slogans.
All breeders must register all of their litters with the appropriate national kennel club.
Stud dog owners must ensure any litters their dog sires are registered with the appropriate national kennel club.
County Computer Consultants reserve the right to refuse an application for membership and to terminate membership without being obliged to give reasons or explanation

Additional Terms and Conditions for Advanced Members
All pictures and text on your pages must be relevant to dogs you own and reside with you. You may not make reference to any other breeder or their dogs without their prior permission.
Animals held in joint ownership, must appear on the account of the person they reside with.
You may refer to previous and forthcoming litters on your main page, but the details of all litters must be entered on the Litter Register.
The litter register is provided to list details of litters you own and have whelped yourself. You are not allowed to add details of friend's litters or puppies your stud dog may have sired. All litters must be whelped at and sold from the registered owner's home address.
You may only use a litter listing to sell puppies from the litter itself. If you have more than one litter for sale please add an additional listing for each litter. There is no additional cost for an extra litter listing.
It is strictly prohibited to refer the contacts you receive from your litter listing to a third party or to use those contacts in order to sell puppies yourself on behalf of a third party. Breach of this condition will result in immediate removal from Champdogs.
All breeders who add a litter to the register must complete the KC breed register numbers of the Sire and Dam of the litter, as well as the KC breed register numbers of the puppies once they are registered. Litters will not be made visible to the public until this information is available and has been verified. A full and accurate pedigree must be supplied for all litters listed on Champdogs.
You may only list puppies for sale whose coat colour is listed as an acceptable colour for registration by the Kennel Club. The colour of all dogs listed on Champdogs must be described accurately and in line with the colour listed on their KC registration documents. In addition we will not accept any litters on Champdogs for which either parent is registered as "Colour Not Recognised By KC" nor will we accept any litter which, in our opinion, has been bred with the intention of producing puppies of an un-recognised colour.
Accidental matings do happen. However no member of Champdogs will be allowed to list a litter which has been bred from an underage bitch or that breaks any of our other rules.
Once a litter has been added to Champdogs, it may only be removed under exceptional circumstances, eg. for a phantom pregnancy. If this occurs please email admin as soon as possible.
In order to assist in keeping the information on the litter register current, please update the "litter status" in a timely manner. Failure to do so, will result in the litter being automatically marked as all sold and may result in your subsequent litters not being listed. If you wish a litter to be re-activated after it has been marked as all sold please contact us. Breeders whom routinely leave "sold" litters open, will find their membership is not renewed.
Your account may not be used for the sale or re-homing of older stock.
Dogs must be at least 18 months old before they can be added to the stud dog register.
Only dogs whose coat colour is listed as an acceptable colour for registration by the Kennel Club may be added to the stud dog register. In addition we will not list a stud dog which, in our opinion, is being used with the intention of producing puppies of an un-recognised colour.
Stud dog owners must disclose the results of all health tests to the bitch owner prior to mating. In addition if their dog is a carrier or affected by a condition for which there is a DNA test available they must ensure the bitch has been tested clear of the condition prior to mating.
Stud dog owners must not allow their dog to be mated with a bitch who has whelped a litter within the previous 9 months.
The Bred Here section may be used to list a maximum of 20 dogs you have bred but no longer own. You must however have the current dog owner's consent. You may not use these pages to make advertisements of any kind.
All other dogs listed must be owned and reside with you. Each dog may only be featured on a single page. A full and accurate pedigree must be supplied for all dogs listed on Champdogs.
Breeders must add and provide proof of all health test results for any dogs and litters they have listed on Champdogs.

>Would that be your 'elite' group of show people who pay nothing toward the upkeep of the site or I am allowed as a gun dog worker who tests and pays an annual fee for the privilage?

"The 'elite' group of show people" to whom you refer pay the same amount for the 'upkeep of the site' as working gundog breeders (who are just as 'elite').

Sleeping_Lion.  Everything on your last post:  Your knowledgement of SD2 & PRA is commendable---is my knowledge of such the same? As for the need to google anything.google away yourself
So you are aware that Labradors are an over numerous breed?  You are not adding to the breed nos when you test results come back and you plan a litter?  As you specified, there are lots of good breeders out there.  I am one of the ones you quoted as having reserve list for over 2 years so please don't make that your crutch you are not unique in that respect.
Hacked your email:  You have openly went on & on about how many tests you have undertaken with your girls on this forum'  The last thing I am interested in is your e-mail account - I can assure you! but then comes the claim that you don't agree with testing for testings sake. That is really misleading to those who have read your previous posts. Immunity unless working strain: If all Labradors irrespective of lines are of the same gene pool (which I thought you would be aware of), why are you saying that your girls are out of this parametre?  You can't give advice re KC Guidelines - it's what you you have previously discouraged even though you are heavily involved with KC. Re your reserve list until 2024 - good luck with that as through experience 50% usually drop out and are you going to sell any remaining Pups for money when the 50% do drop out?  Re a newcomer, I've been breeding animals since I was a child. Over only the last 3 years  since wishing to become a responsible dog breeder have I taken notice of KC recommendations so yes I am a new comer.

> We do not accept membership applications from commercial breeders

In her own words, Hoggie is a commercial breeder. In fact she seems very insistent that we should call her that rather than a puppy farmer.

Something’s clearly very wrong here.

Annual Fee Members;  Well I apologise Jeangenie if that is the case.  Some of your members stated that you are all free to join this forum and that's whyno notice is taken of you by CD as they are only in it for the money.

I feel like Luke Skywalker right this mintute, everything you just said is wrong. 

I never described Labradors as over populated, or over numerous, you are posting that as if I said it.  And, btw, I am not a man, while we are on the subject of things you obviously don't understand. 

Well bred litters are in demand, having a huge waiting list doesn't prove that you are breeding well bred pups, but those who are breeding well bred pups often do have a good sized waiting list in advance. 

It's a parameter, and my girls are from dual purpose lines, not working bred lines, so my girls are more prone to EIC as an example, but your dogs, which are from working lines, are more prone to PRA and SD2.  Yes, they are all from the same genetic background, but when gene pools were closed, and there were some splits within breeds (Labradors aren't the only breed with a split between working/show/pet bred lines) and different genetic conditions came to the fore in different lines, surely you should know this? 

What are you on about?  I'm not involved with the KC, I just make sure I read up on the most recent guidance, perhaps you should give that a try?  And actually, I've had members on my waiting list for a few years already, and they want to wait because of the care I take with my planned litters, if 50% of your waiting lists drop out then that's your affair, but don't apply that to me, you make enough assumptions as it is. 

So you've been invovled with dog breeding since you were a child, but only just within the last 3 years decided to educate yourself, but within those three years bred 7 litters without understanding that a 1 elbow grade means a dog has osteoarthritis, and will most likely pass this on to progeny, and that the EBV has confirmed this with the matings that took place.