One way street... you can all say European vets are crap and putting all puppies in europe at risk .. come on people get real

> Do any of you find the word kennel there

I didn't say you used kennel, I mearly replied to hoggie, stated that the quote in jeanjeanies post time 17:42 was from your words> The difference I see rather clearly is that my girl is my beloved pet and not just “a bitch”

I think if u look at the first quote by jeangenie about trusting European vets considerably more than english  u will see how I drew the conclusion that english vets had been stated to be inferior .
True the word inferior was not used but the implication imo was the same

Like I said far above, you are shooting the messengers.

I'm really sorry that science says you are doing harm by x-raying your pregnant dog, but that's what you're doing. The correct response, confronted by facts, would be to decide to do things differently in future - not to attack the people who told you the facts.

>Smart fact: I trust European vets and doctors considerably more than English ones.. the historical data speaks for itself

Er, what 'historical data'? You can't just make statements like that and not give the actual data.

>Next fact: I live 30 minutes from the closest out of hours emergency vet hospitals I prefer the SMALL risk if it exists of ONE X-ray over being in a position of losing a puppy or my beloved girl if there is a troubled labour

An x-ray many days before delivery doesn't tell you anything which is going to offer you the magical protection you seem to want. Puppies can move into difficult positions, placentas can detach prematurely, puppies can die in utero and then be difficult to whelp and so on. And 30 minutes is nothing, by the way. That is very close.

>The difference I see rather clearly is that my girl is my beloved pet and not just “a bitch” so I would rather move heaven and earth to do everything I can to be as sure as I can that SHE will be safe

I guess that’s where we all differ, my girl lives in my heart and I would rather lose a pup than her (money means nothing to me)

How selfish. You would rather your own dog ends up being 'safe' and well over the puppies you will sell to other people, who will have a higher incidence of cancer as a result.

And if your bitch is so 'beloved' that you REALLY want to minimise risks, then you would never breed her at all - because breeding is a risky business and even with the best medical care, bitches are lost, suffer complications during whelping, develop infections after whelping, suffer from eclampsia and so on. So if you REALLY wanted to minimise risk, you wouldn't breed at all. If you decide to breed, you have a duty not only to the bitch but to the puppies you are bringing into being.

>I would be interested to know the statistics of emergency c-sections in England versus the continent, purely because owners are totally ignorant going into the birth .. I’ll bet the numbers are higher in England (bit higher cost to the dam don’t you think?..

You are just making things up now. There is no evidence or suggestion that there is a higher rate of problems in the UK.

>I guess this is the dog world of trolling

No, it's the world of hearing things you don't like. I'm sorry that's so difficult for you. It makes learning very difficult.

Lexy:  Kennel Bitches>  you were relpying to me?  A NEW THREAD IS REQUIRED...this is way off subject of Whelping. To continue discussion someone needs to open a new thread relating to behaviour by Forum Members otherwise everyone is going to get into trouble from CD Admin.

Perhaps we should leave admin to decide who gets into trouble and who.doesnt ? And if a thread has gone too far off piste?

> Lexy:  Kennel Bitches>  you were relpying to me?  A NEW THREAD IS REQUIRED...this is way off subject of Whelping. To continue discussion someone needs to open a new thread relating to behaviour by Forum Members otherwise everyone is going to get into trouble from CD Admin.

perhaps you need to read posts a little more carefully. Some use the quote option(the words come up in grey, like above), this help know whom the reply is to, along with the notification the person will receive. All my recent posts on this thread have been part of the thread & replies made in relation to the OP(Original Poster)!

To Whom it may concern: PATRONISING!  You've obviously all found a new target,,,,if you are up for the challenge to start an APPROPRIATE thread, feel free to join in to some diverse opinions.

Taken from a research paper from a BRITISH renowned vet

Radiographs are not necessary to diagnose a pregnancy. In fact, you can get an answer to that question in one of the ways it’s done in human medicine, through an ultrasound. A vet who’s handy with an ultrasound can confirm pregnancy in as little as 18 days from ovulation.

An x-ray won’t give you that information until practically a month later, well after she’s starting to look outwardly pregnant.

Are Dog X-rays Safe?
Anytime radiation is involved, there will be some risk, otherwise the staff wouldn’t gown up in lead aprons before taking radiographs. The vast majority of veterinarians agree that an accurate puppy count and the information it provides breeders is worth some exposure to radiation.

We’re all bound by the idea of ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable), which means we only expose our patients to as little radiation risk as necessary to achieve our diagnostic objectives.

By the time the pups are old enough to be detected on a radiograph, much of the early, critical development has already taken place. By this milestone, the pups have minimal risk of developmental issues due to radiation.

Nay-sayers often cite an older study that suggests a high risk of cancer later in life for pups exposed to radiation in utero. However, veterinary radiologists point out negative effects emerge from cumulative radiation, and this study measured the effects of radiation levels roughly equivalent to 100 consecutive radiographs. A pregnancy radiograph series requires only one or two images at most.

I’d wager far more puppies are lost to dystocia than exposure to microdoses of radiation from a pregnancy radiographs. In my mind, it’s totally worth the risk.

Lexy:  Untrue.  The OP was re whelping.

> Lexy:  Untrue.  The OP was re whelping

Yes I understand that but the OP stated her bitch was a pet & like many others who have posted whom have litters, their bitches are beloved pets too.

furriefriends:  Every single Member has 'gone off piste' so maybe everyone should be banned....the written proof is here.

Lexy:  the original thread relates to whelping.

We had one European-trained vet who wanted to run expensive hormone tests on a bitch because she had seasons every 8 months. He'd been taught that all bitches have seasons every 6 months, and anything else meant there was a medical problem! He also thought that green discharge when a bitch was whelping was perfectly normal and nothing to worry about, on the basis that it happens when the placenta was detached. Even when it was pointed out to him that a detached placenta means its unborn whelp isn't receiving any oxygen and will very quickly die, he still insisted it was normal. And breeders - especially first-time breeders - are supposed to put their faith in these people.

First off I'm glad your puppies arrived and and are now doing well, congrats.

Looking back over the whole thread, the first page is full of many people answering your many questions with good advise which you seemed happy with, it's not until the subject of xrays came up, members gave their opyions on the use of xrays on pregnant bitches and two of the posters did agknolege that some countries do routinely do them while the UK do not. I don't read any of them as sarcastic or as having a go at you but simply stating how it works in the UK and in what circumstances they would or wouldn't do one and why. Then you said "All I have got is sarcasm, reproaching and little else" which ignores all the other advice people took the time to give you with your other questions previously.
I suppose that is the problem with the written word it's easy for different people to read the same post differently. It seems you have taken some offence to some of the posters opions on xrays and some have taken some offence to some of your replies after.

The majority of the breeders here are like you with their dogs are their pets first and foremost. The use of the term bitch is with some is simply because it's the correct term, nothing more.

I sincerely hope your litter continues to do well for you.

JoStockbridge:  X-rays and ongoing discussiom>  I'm soory Jo but looking at the timing of your last response you haven't followed the threads.  What happens is posters make their opinions felt and then edit them.  It means no one is getting a true picture as to what is said to individuals.  Horrible - sorry to burst your bubble...

Thanks Jo for your kind words
However .. I was told « yeah sensible for the vet charging for the X-ray «  in response to me explaining why I felt it was worth the minor risk in my situation
That’s just for starters.. then being sent links to old cancer research  saying if I can still X-ray after reading that then basically I’m a selfish terrible human..
near in mind this is after I said the X-ray was done so what’s the point ..? Just to make me feel bad
Then it descended into a slamming match about whether UK or europe vets are better
Sorry to say but some of the posts were downright attacking and not at all in the spirit I expected from a forum of grown adults

> What happens is posters make their opinions felt and then edit them.

8 out of 117 (I think) posts have been edited. Edits have to be done within a short time frame and most of the time people do it to change spelling or add something (normally with the phrase edited to add before hand). I’m pretty sure Jo has the full picture.

(For clarity - edited to change ‘I’ to ‘I’m’ in my last sentence)

The timing of posts is expressed in UTC: Coordinated Universal Time. The same as GMT .
This makes them appear to have been made an hour behind the time they were made following BST- or am I missing something?

Looking at it it shows it as an hour before as I made mine at approx 9:50pm UK time not 8:50pm

masajackrussell> Edited posts:: What proof of editing for any spelling mistakes do you have? I've been on the receiving end so please don't try to make it an innocent action.
Please don't speak for Jo...Everyone else on the Forum would be slated for such an assumption.  No comment to the 'kennel bitches' response I gave to you? Selective or not?

Oh and what has that response got to do with 'Whelping' may I add?  There is a new thread for discussing Forum Behaviour but as suspected very few have taken up the challenge,,,,

Garbo: UTC:  I am not stupid - I am aware of what UTC means,  You missed the point of measured editing.

I’ve been reading this thread as it has gone Through and not personally seen any major changes.

My comment on your ‘kennel bitches’ response - are you now claiming you did not say this is how you keep your dogs:

they are all in kennels 6ft x 6ft for each dog within an enclosed barn.

I’m pretty sure you only get minutes to edit a post- maybe admin could advise?

Yes you do as I’ve tried to edit something shortly after and been too late

Masajackrussell:  'kennel bitches':  I did not say they were housed in 6ft by 6ft kennels.  They are out all day every day with myself, hubby & my gamekeepers.  The ones who have enjoyed their working day sleep quietly in their heated kennels yes but my goodness they deserve a quiet place. My farmhouse extension houses all non working in the day dogs - you really need to accept reality and negativity to everything will make you ill during these times.

Garbo:  Editing of posts.  Your right about minutes but a lot can be written in that short space of time...why do you think some happy postesr all of a sudden feel the need to react strongly? Have you seen the most recent post to Havanais-eli from onetwothreefour?  Edited but still horrendous!

> I did not say they were housed in 6ft by 6ft kennels.

That’s a direct quote from your first post on this forum. Even though it is now deleted I have it in it’s entirety as you replied directly to me so I got it sent through as an email notification. So yes you did say that - that is reality.

And I’m perfectly well thankyou

>That’s a direct quote from your first post on this forum.

Absolutely correct. It was stated they live in 6ft by 6ft kennels within a barn.

And yes; the time limit for editing; to either correct spelling or add something for clarification, is about 5 minutes. After that is too late.

Masajackrussell: 'kennel bitches':    Don't start your 'picky' parts of discussion again,  Open your mind and realise you only have the ability to take things out of context to make your point rather than see the whole picture.

> Open your mind and realise you only have the ability to take things out of context to make your point rather than see the whole picture.

Nothing has been taken out of context. Here’s the whole paragraph:

Since retiring, my dogs are my life! Here's another contraversial issue... they are all in kennels 6ft x 6ft for each dog within an enclosed barn.  They have a seperate sleeping part to this kennel with deep bedding. a heat lamp and a thermometer of which the reading is recorded each evening. (just one part of licensing/breedership agreement)

ETA: I’ll post the whole thing if you would like me to for more context. You have kennelled dogs Hoggie. Own that fact and stop trying to backtrack.

Jeangenie,  My Kennels are 6ft x 6ft in my heated barn and the working dogs do sleep in there.  What's your problem?

Masajackrussell:  Taking things out of context:  This a complete and true statement and one I have no wish to change.

Good.

Masajackrussell:  Yes my dogs who have worked in the day sleep in an enclosed barn in a 6ft x 6ft kennel.  And your problem is?

Masajackrussell:  Glad you are able to deal with it.  Oh and what did this all have to do with the Topic/Thread - Whelping?

Ugh...

> No one on here that I have come across has 'Kennel Bitches'.

Someone does...

Your response to this comment I made:

-/- By Hoggie [gb] Date 27.09.20 18:04 UTC
Masajackrussell> And despite your beliefs it is not me...

And yet you have now said that you do kennel your dogs.

My problem is not that you kennel your dogs Hoggie. I know a lot of people who do. I am also trusting from your posts that you do keep them very clean and tidy.

My problem is that your story changes every time, you can’t stick to one truth and when those supposed truths are exposed as untruths more changes get added to the story. You then seem surprised that people haven’t taken to you on here. It is the boy who cried wolf. No one who was involved in the first thread you posted on trusts you. If you were consistent in your responses and perhaps a little more humble when inconsistencies were found then people might have been more receptive.

That is a genuine explanation for you. It is not me trying to wind you up. Perhaps take it on board and things might improve for you on here. I’m trying to be helpful.

Edited to remove a couple of random bc’s that came from who knows where

> Masajackrussell:  Glad you are able to deal with it.  Oh and what did this all have to do with the Topic/Thread - Whelping?

Nothing I just responded to someone else’s comment. Off to bed now.

Jeangenie:  I have never stated my dogs 'live in a 6 x 6ft kennel within a barn - ever. They sleep there if they have been working on our commercial shoot during the day - and again - your problem is?  Re time limit for editing:  do you realise how much can be written/said in 5 mins or even what the option is to 'Private Message' on here?

> However .. I was told « yeah sensible for the vet charging for the X-ray «  in response to me explaining why I felt it was worth the minor risk in my situation...then being sent links to old cancer research  saying if I can still X-ray after reading that then basically I’m a selfish terrible human..

Reading from the outside i really do think it's a case of miss reading intentions causing issues. I read the vet comment as not aimed as a critic of you but more that as some vets feel it's not safe so not worth the risk as routine and some vets think it's fine and as we know sometimes vets are not always right I think the comment was more aimed at vets. I think perhaps some have felt insulted after helping with your other questions and this may have effected the way some have answered (The cancer research and other replies were after this). I think this is the root of the problem, you have felt insulted by some replies and others have felt insulted by some of your replies. I'm sure that wasn't the original intentions.
Perhaps time we all leave the x-ray topic there, both sides of the argument have been said, anyone who comes along can read the info and decide or look more into it. Before the thread gets more heated and locked/removed.

I know how stressful having your first litter can be, How has your girl taken to it all? As that was your original concern,  has she settled down and taken to being a mum?

Thanks Jo for being the topic back to what it was meant to be
Maggie took a day or so to really get into it, she has become very attentive, feeding and cleaning in a very relaxed way
She does not go far from them and is instantly on alert if she hears any squeak
However, as I suspected she is really depressed to stay with them all the time, she is desperate to get out and sit with me just for some ”normal ” time .. I try to encourage her to go back and stay but I don’t want to force her and she end up resenting the pups for them separating her from me..
that said, in the night she is with them for the most part
Before anyone jumps to any conclusions about the set up
I have a large whelping box with a baby pen around it so that Maggie has the option to remove herself from the heat but still be within the confines of the puppy area..
occasionally I leave the gate open so she can have a little freedom  on the understanding with her that if a pup cries she goes back immediately
The pups say for themselves that things are ok.. they have all gained 30g each day and are feeling very strong and healthy
Their coats are silky soft and healthy looking
Maggie is happy for me to handle the puppies, zero issue , but I didn’t expect one as she trusts me implicitly
I have had a nightmare with temperature control.. I had a heating pad under but even on the lowest setting they kept all moving away , clearly too warm
So I put my central heating on which is underfloor and that seems to have worked a treat (just awful for the rest of us)
I’m trying to find the right balance for them because the temps I read online is far too hot for them (29-32)!!
Even at 26 they are showing they are a tad warm and their bellies feel warm
I think I read somewhere that after the first 4-5 days the temp could be reduced a little but i can’t find any consistent advice on that
They all now have names (in accordance with French law on pure bred dogs)

>She does not go far from them and is instantly on alert if she hears any squeak

However, as I suspected she is really depressed to stay with them all the time, she is desperate to get out and sit with me just for some ”normal ” time .. I try to encourage her to go back and stay but I don’t want to force her and she end up resenting the pups for them separating her from me..
This is very common, and to avoid causing the bitch stress or the puppies to be left alone for too long many breeders spend their time in the 'puppy room' with the bitch, often to the extent of only leaving them to go to the toilet. With one litter I had to sleep right next to the whelping box because if my bed (cushions and a sleeping bag) were further away the bitch (all my dogs are beloved house pets and the word bitch isn't meant in any derogatory way, it's just the correct word for a female domestic canine ), would come and snuggle with me instead! I live like this with them - luckily I don't live alone so there's someone to take turns on puppy duty and the other dogs aren't neglected - for the first couple of weeks; once their eyes are open the bitch can safely spend more time away from them. By the fourth or fifth days the bitches are always asking to be taken for a walk with the others so they get a break as well!
Hope this helps.

> I’m trying to find the right balance for them because the temps I read online is far too hot for them (29-32)!!<br />Even at 26 they are showing they are a tad warm and their bellies feel warm

I found the same Havanais_eli and have not used any extra heat source yet. Although I have only had summer litters. I expect for a winter litter I would just try to keep the entire room at a certain temperature. Mine have been happy to cuddle each other on vet bed for warmth and as you said sometimes they are still too hot. Don’t worry too much about what the temperature actually is. You are doing the right thing in my book by watching how the puppies react and adjusting if necessary. So pleased they are all doing well.

Not so much because I’m already ”living” in the puppy room because the whelping box is in the corner of my living room.. so even though Maggie can see me the whole time, she wants to come out and sit in her place at the side of the sofa right next to me
So unless I physically put myself inside the whelping box, she wants out..
i just did the weigh in and they have gained , ranging from smallest gain of 14g to the big one gaining 35g .. so I suppose she is not neglecting them in any way
I would just prefer to see her with them more while they are this young
Either myself or my husband has been in the room 24/7 literally , we have done split shifts since birth so they are never alone (even for toilet !)

It sounds as if they're doing well, and you're making any changes when the need arises. If the pups are warm, quiet and gaining weight there's not too much to worry about. Enjoy this time of relative peace!

Glad to hear she has settled with them. My girl wouldn't stay by the box, like you I had the box in the living room (just across from the sofa) she would get upset if Cain made a noise but when he was quiet she largely ignored him. I'd have to tell her to go feed her puppy and many feeds were done on the sofa at first, and she couldn't possibly sleep in the box. After a couple days she did get better and would go and feed him without me telling her to.
I found the same thing with the temp, for the first few days I made the hottest side of the box the temp my books said and had it getting cooler towards the other side and Cain spent most of his time in the middle or the cooler end so we started raising the lamp after the first few days.

As long as the pups are settled, quiet and gaining you must be doing something right ;)

I wasn't going to add to this thread (too scary!) but just to say re good and bad vets and the UK vs European vets.   My local practice has an Italian and a Spanish vet and also one from Australia.  However, when in Canada, I only had experience of 2 vets, one good, one not so..... so that was 50/50.   Back in the Uk, I've been through way more bad vets (or those I could not work with?) than good ones.   In fact out of 6 different vet practices, I managed to find only 2 who I'd say were good (excellent in fact, including my current one and one out of 2 before we moved West) and the rest - couldn't move on fast enough!  All were British.  Whether my experiences uphold the idea that European vets tend to be 'better' than British ones, I don't know.

Just to repeat I'd never go for x-ray until past the due date, if needed.    And that applied to whichever country I lived in.

Also,  OP, make good use of the first 3 weeks with a litter - getting as much shut-eye as possible.   With any luck, mum should be doing the work ... your turn will come later, once weaning starts!!

Modern technology can be so helpful.

In the past I usually had my phone between shoulder and chin, during whelping, to Mentor or stud dog owner.

photos were 2 weeks out of date for sharing due to developing and postage.

Now we can share real time.

Rather similar with x-ray vs Ultrasound.

With my first litter I had breeder friends from another breed come and help with whelping, though first pup had already arrived.

For me pup seemed small (she was) and very cold (I'd previously had only ever handle newborn rabbits, who are naked, but very warm by comparison).

I was very glad of my friend, as next pup born was twice the size of first (biggest in litter) and got stuck, lubricant and correct timing got her out.

Experience of breeder or mentor will be invaluable to help decide if things are going normally, albeit slowly, or intervention needed. 

Sadly most vets (unless breeders themselves) have little breeding experience, generally only doing C sections.

Not surprising really with so many different species.

> I would hope that all c-sections were emergency ones, because routine elective sections are very bad for a breed; they soon become the norm and in some breeds the ability to self-whelp is almost lost

I was horrified on several Facebook groups to discover breeders in USA and Australia mainly choosing and advocating routine elective C sections.

Others who would choise this route to avoud weekend whelping, due ti lack of emergency vet cover in reasonable distance.

Some went as far as to maintain it was 'more responsible'!! Less painful andbtraumatic for the bitch, fewer stillborns etc. I was horrified, and pists git quite heated.