If he is like most male dobes he will love living with two bossy women. 

My neighbour has always had dobes up to 4 at a time and they have all been great with my dogs.  She had one lovely male who I used to bring around when I had puppies as he was so good with them. 

I always used to take any pups I had over 8 weeks to visit with them, so they get used to different dogs.

Pedlee, I wonder if when all this has settled and the boy has found a new home you are happy with, you might write up this experience as one of the blog articles?

It is a perfect example of just how many responsibilities a breeder faces and I'm sure a fair few of them will not occur to some just starting out. It also shows how even the very best of breeders can find themselves stretched and how you have really had to go the extra miles to begin to get a resolution.

You clearly are a good and responsible breeder and I am sure all of us can learn from your experience.

From what I've been told sillysue he is fine with dogs, children and people, but I last saw him as an 8 week old pup. The 1st foster carer had huskies and a cat and he was fine with them.

I'm happy to write about this awful experience if people think it would be useful for one of the blogs.

Dobes in Need did say they wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where he's gone (it's their policy) but will give me regular updates of how he's getting on for as long as I want them (which will be forever).

Full marks Pedlee for all that you have done for this lad. I think you have worked so hard to get him sorted the best you can. As someone said "There but for the grace of God" Lets hope he finds a great forever home now and is able to relax and enjoy the rest of his life.
Life sometimes throws us a bum deal and we have to try and get through it the best we can. I think some comments on this thread have been cruel. We do all need to take responsibilty for the dogs we breed even though sometimes it can be difficult. I feel sure that had you not been able to place him as you have somehow you would have dealt with it one way or another, you obviously would not have just thrown your hands up in horror and walked away from your responsibilies.
Fingers crossed for his future.
Aileen

Thanks Aileen. x

> Full marks Pedlee for all that you have done for this lad. I think you have worked so hard to get him sorted the best you can. As someone said "There but for the grace of God" Lets hope he finds a great forever home now and is able to relax and enjoy the rest of his life.
> Life sometimes throws us a bum deal and we have to try and get through it the best we can. I think some comments on this thread have been cruel. We do all need to take responsibilty for the dogs we breed even though sometimes it can be difficult. I feel sure that had you not been able to place him as you have somehow you would have dealt with it one way or another, you obviously would not have just thrown your hands up in horror and walked away from your responsibilies.
> Fingers crossed for his future.
> Aileen

*LIKE*

> I think some comments on this thread have been cruel.

I doubt they were meant that way, sometimes it is hard to read tone in a short or blunt post.

Posts are not just for the benefit of the poster, but will come up on searches, and this one will highlight the ongoing responsibilities good breeders have and how they can really put one in a pinch, and this contemplating breeding need to think about this very possible scenario.

I'm shocked, really I'm shocked..........

Those of us who breed know darn well that we don't leave our litters side for 2 weeks, many not for weeks after that, we don't do anything to stress the dam and we put everything into raising a litter.

I don't allow any family dogs into my home when my girl is rearing a litter not until they are 8 weeks old. Many of our dogs even in a multi dog household do not react well to their 'family' dogs being anywhere near the newly whelped litter.

I can't imagine how your bitch would have reacted Pedlee to a strange male Doberman suddenly appearing in the house. I wouldn't put my bitch through that stress.

When you take a dog in (I've had plenty of my pups/adults during holidays, illness etc) you don't take it in unless you can look after it, make it feel welcome, care for it, give it time, walks. I would not have any strange dog in my home whilst my bitch had a litter.

What I would do is ask a family member to take the dog for me, which I know they would as we always help each other out, but that is luck I have a large dog loving family, I know not everyone has that.

As breeders we do what is best, Pedlee you've done what is best, I will honestly say I would not have had the dog if I had a new litter, nothing to do with money, but I won't cut back the care of the dam and litter, and I wouldn't take in a dog I couldn't give my time to.

If there was no-one else to help, then you've had to look elsewhere.

Glad the dog is going to be ok now. :-)

I doubt they were meant that way, sometimes it is hard to read tone in a short or blunt post.

I think some comments came across exactly how the poster`s meant them to!!

comments  may well come up in searches and be beneficial to others wanting to learn, but  some of the comments made were NOT made for that porpose, they were mean and  cruel .

They were judgemental, and no amount of  wrapping it up in "educational benefit for the future " now will change that, some people need to  step off the pedestal they have built for themselves, and  realise "life  " cant be planned out.

I am shocked (well no not really)  that Pedlee has been criticised because she did not have the foresight  to see into the future 9 yrs later that a dog she bred is in need of help, how dare she move house and breed a litter, instead of NOT doing any thing, just incase  by any chance she may  find herself in this situation.

I think it's silly to keep going over this but I just wanted to say, Pedlee, I think you are a fantastic breeder!!! GOOD ON YOU!!! Your pup needed you and you never failed him.  I wish every breeder were like you :)
Also, you thought of your bitch with her new babies too! As well as juggling every other aspect of life!! Pat on the back! I wouldn't have risked my tiny pups with a strange dog, straight from the pound.
I think you should be very proud of yourself instead of answering naysayers!! Take a deep breath and let the negative posts go :)

Well said Aileen, couldn't agree more.

I think some comments came across exactly how the poster`s meant them to!!

         

Sadly, so do I :(                                                                                                       

Perhaps the concern for the dog stopped the more critical posters thinking first, no one can see into the future to that extent and I don't think those who criticised had thought it through, well I hope that is the case.

Pedlee, well done with the result you have achieved you did the very best you could and IMO are to be congratulated. Settle back now and enjoy your pups and if you get a chance some sleep.

Thanks Jackie.

Sorry Pedlee, I thought I knew a wonderful home for your boy. My friend adores Dobes even though she and hubby have 2 GSD bitches at the moment. She fell in love with the photo of him and begged her husband to agree to taking him in, but the voice of reason ( hubby) insisted that he didn't want to chance another dog spoiling the wonderful bond that exists between her 2 bitches. The answer was NO even though she tried every type of persuasion. Having had Dobes before she would have been perfect, and she lives in Norfolk ( so you could have visited ) Sorry - It was a good idea but it didn't work.
I hope he finds a good home soon, he doesn't deserve to be treated badly.
By the way I think that you did everything possible for him  and should be congratulated for your efforts and not criticised.

Perhaps the concern for the dog stopped the more critical posters thinking first, no one can see into the future to that extent and I don't think those who criticised had thought it through, well I hope that is the case.



Hopefully you are right and maybe some apologies will appear :)

Hopefully you are right and maybe some apologies will appear :-)

Well if not, I will sadly have to admit to being wrong.

I think a combination of concern for the dog and not reading right through the OP - as I said there but for the grace....

I think that is a lovely thing to say .

It's a very wise (and unique) person who knows exactly what is in store for them 10 years along the way!

Let's be honest here - there but for the grace of God could go any of us at one time or another!

Exactly!

All these people that have a spare kennel, what would happen if they got 2, or 3 dogs come back unexpectedly at the same time?

Every eventuality cannot be covered at every time, and nobody knows exactly what's around the corner. I did my best for this boy, I'm just sad that some people feel it wasn't good enough. I've had very many PM's offering support and really appreciate them.

And as expected no apologies, so those people obviously stand by what they posted.

It's impossible to cover all possible eventualities so we responsibly do our best, which is what you did. You didn't shirk your responsibility, and neither had you put your entire life on hold because of "What if ..." If you find a source of reliable crystal balls, please let us know!

> It's impossible to cover all possible eventualities so we responsibly do our best, which is what you did. You didn't shirk your responsibility,

and that is all anyone can ask, and exactly what Pedlee has done.

I think some us said that you do have to expect the unexpected and to the best you can, and most of us can manage somehow, usually with help from our friends and breed contacts, and gave examples of how we have managed similar situations.

Another reason why a breeder cannot affair to breed in a vacuum but needs to be part of their larger breed community, not only in order to be able to see and choose ones breeding lines, but for the back up one has within that community, be it from stud dog owners, our mentors friends or even former puppy owners who will often be there for you, thank the Lord.

Well it seems I was wrong to think an apology would be forthcoming and I am very sad about that, did think that the original post had been misread or that the offending posts were from the concern for the dog but there has been opportunity to withdraw the comments and it has not been done, not even an effort to justify - very sad. Hope those involved remember this when something in their life goes pear shaped but I hope that they do not have to endure such unthinking comments on top of their already stressful situation. 

Well said Nova. It is sad,  because this forum can be so wonderful both for support and information, and yes criticism where justified!

In Pedlee's case the criticism was unkind and unjustified. Pedlee, as you know many more of us commend you for your determination and caring attitude both to the boy in trouble and your bitch and her litter. Don't let the minority upset you. You have done so well in very difficult circumstances.

Best wishes.

I don't think we should be hounding anyone for an apology.
I did not share their view but I do think people are entitled to their own opinion.

I don't think we should be hounding anyone for an apology.

Don't think anyone is hounding, if that really is someones opinion then they will not apologies nor should they - we were saying it was sad that it should remain someone's opinion, once they realize the true state of things, and as that would seem unlikely an apology would be in order.

Some of the remarks made seemed unfounded and I was suggesting an apology or and explanation would clear the air, we can I take it ask why someone holds the opinion they voiced.

Stooge, I hardly think suggesting apologies might be forthcoming is 'hounding'!

It seems apparent there won't be any, so maybe best to let matters lie- Pedlee knows the majority of us believe she has done the best she could, for all her dogs at a difficult time. There is a difference in voicing an opinion and being unpleasant in my opinion.

> There is a difference in voicing an opinion and being unpleasant in my opinion.

I quite agree. It's not always a case of just stating an opinion. It's finding it necessary to snap at people that causes bad feeling.

> It's finding it necessary to snap at people that causes bad feeling.

Maybe a little refresher of what was actually said.  :)  Comment was actually passed that no harshness was intending PLUS an apology if that was how it was being perceived.

Like I said, all I see is someone giving an opinion that happens to differ to the majority.

I was not sure whether to say anything further, but...

If Pedlee was not a long-standing member of the forum, the response here would have been somewhat different.  That doesn't seem fair.

After all, putting aside the practicalities and the reasons for it, we have here someone who has bred a dog and been unable to personally take on the responsibility of rehoming him, later in his life.  Yes, they did find other ways to help him - but via a rescue organisation, taking up valuable rescue resources which might otherwise have been used for another dog.  It's not for no reason that most rescues 'hate' breeders...  actions like this don't really give them a good name.

Meanwhile, over on the 'Breeding' forum, we have a topic called 'Ethical breeding', with a link to 'Should I breed from my pet bitch?': http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89071.html

This explicitly states: "A responsible breeder also has a lifetime responsibility to the puppies they produce. This means being prepared to take back one of their puppies (however old he/she might be) for rehoming should the need arise (unfortunately people's circumstances do change), even if the timing is not convenient for the breeder. Responsible breeders do not "pass the buck" to Breed Rescue or to general Rescue Societies."

It is a bit hypocritical to have this posted up on the forum to refer newcomers to, and to deter people from breeding - when long-standing members are 'allowed' and supported when they are not abiding by it!

I know of many people who have decided not to breed at all, simply because they don't know where they'll be (in many ways), years from now, nor if they will be able to meet that responsibility.  Some have decided just to own stud dogs (although they also have some responsibility for pups produced, not as much as the bitch owner).  I'm not sure why some should hold themselves to this high standard whilst others expect to be seen in the same ethical light, when they don't meet it...

Although it is a difficult set of circumstances, it is not ethical to pass on responsibilities for dogs you've bred, to others.  At the very worst, there should be costs put aside to pay to kennel a dog whilst a home is found - so that the burden for this does not fall on rescues.  That should be in addition to any money put aside for breeding costs incurred.  (C-sections.)

Ye gods and little fishes! Rabid, no matter how high our ideals may be, life does catch us out sometimes! Pedlee is not only a longstanding member, she is a responsible breeder and a caring one!

   I have been a member of this forum a long time and usually keep away from controversy, often just sending a PM of support. This last week or so I have allowed myself to be caught up in two controversial threads! It must be very uncomfortable up there on those high perches!! Possibly a long way to fall too!! Again it is worth repeating, there but for the grace of God.......

On that note I have decided to bow out of this thread as it is just going round in circles:)

Just will add, sorry if some you don't understand my first sentence- it's an old phrase which expresses exasperation!!

That is all very well Rabid, but it is totally subjective as to just how much is enough to have put aside.  I suspect if we posed that question we would get many different answers.

What swings it for me, in Pedlee case, is she did NOT give up but devoted a great deal of time and energy (another set of resources she was probably running thin on) over a course of obstacles until she found the solution.

>Responsible breeders do not "pass the buck" to Breed Rescue or to general Rescue Societies."

Pedlee said: "I paid to get him out of what is apparently and awful kennel and gave the foster carer money for his keep. I organised for him to visit my old vet, again at my expense and set about trying to find him a home. It's when the foster carer let me down, let him go to the 2nd carer who then also ran into problems, that the real problems arose.

After exploring every avenue and contact I have I finally managed to get in touch with the only organisation willing to help. I've organised professional transport to get him from the 2nd fosterer to Dobermanns in Need, who incidentally offered to go halves on the transport, but I've paid the lot."

Do you honestly think this is 'passing the buck'? Finding not one but two foster homes (which let her down) then funding the vet visit, travel arrangements etc ... do you think this is 'not accepting responsibility?

I think this is an example of a breeder going the extra mile for one of her 'puppies', regardless of how long they've been a forum member, and demonstrates what can happen in anyone's life.

I too was not going to say anything more - but

> It's not for no reason that most rescues 'hate' breeders...  actions like this don't really give them a good name.

I am not at all surprised when I read the total hypocracy written by a few here - absolutely shocking :( Not at all surprising that breeders have a bad name when they set themselves up as totally perfect :(

Fortunately, as has been proved by most of the posts on this thread, there are many good, responsible breeders and most importantly, just very nice people

Rabid,

I'm sure if Pedlee did not have this litter she would have had the dog straight away, I would also predict that if things had gone to plan with the fosterer (who let her down) after the litter had gone she would have then been able to have the dog at her home, any returned dog needs to be assessed, may need a little training and it's personality and character needs to be checked over before even thinking of finding a new home, you can't do any of that with a litter on the ground, dealing with the dam, the pups, the new owners, the reaction between the Dobe and the Dam and the Pups.

Pedlee was in a terrible situation knowing the dog could not over the next few weeks come to her own home, she has frantically tried everywhere with no luck, that is not her fault, the dog needed moving quickly as the fosterer could not look after him anymore,

A responsible breeder is at the forefront in organising everything to do with our pups and adult dogs that does not necessarily mean coming home, if you don't have people/other breeders to help at that particular time.

The breed rescue will vet carefully and they have said that they will keep Pedlee informed even after re-homing. (I would also enclose a letter here for 'the new owners' with my details to be passed on.)

The only thing extra I would do at this time (which may well have already been done) is also explain to the breed rescue that once my litter is homed if the dog has not found a well vetted home by then, I would like the dog to be returned to me to then care for and home or maybe indeed keep, I couldn't leave one of my dogs in a kennel once the litter had gone.

It is just really, really bad luck with the timing, for me it is just that simple..............

>It is just really, really bad luck with the timing, for me it is just that simple.......

Absolutely.

Anyone who says that someone who can't guarantee that at any time in the next 15 years they personally can take a 'strange' dog into their home, probably needing isolation for a while, shouldn't breed .... well, that rules out all small breeders. The responsible breeder does their utmost to help find one of their pups a new home, not that they have to personally provide it.

I agree that it's really bad luck with the timing and circumstances, but I think it becomes a slippery slope... just how much, then, do we expect breeders to do?  Are we now revising the ethical statement which we refer others to when they come to the site?  Should this be edited to make exceptions?

As for the cost of things, I don't doubt that Pedlee paid a substantial amount of money - however keeping a dog in kennels for a couple of weeks will cost much more - a cost now incurred by a rescue.  Yes, I would expect someone who has brought more than one litter of pups into the world to have more put aside for unexpected dog expenses than the fee for an emergency c-section.  Of course a breeder does not have to personally provide a home - but if they can't, they should be able to pay for kennels for at least a few weeks, whilst finding a home.  I don't think it's a lot to ask to expect breeders to have enough money put aside for a dog to stay in kennels for a few weeks??

I'm not on a moral high horse, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy involved in having a no-exceptions statement such as the above which we refer people to, whilst then making allowances for those we know better who are long-standing members of the forum.  If you want to make exceptions like this, then fine:  The statement we refer others to should be edited to make room for such allowances and exceptions.  To have 2 different sets of rules depending on whether someone is known to the forum or not is hypocritical beyond words.

>just how much, then, do we expect breeders to do?

Apparently they must never become ill or be hospitalised, they must be immune from the effects of any economic recession ... sometimes with the best will in the world things are logistically impossible at times, not merely 'inconvenient', and that's nobody's fault. Pedlee went out of her way to help one of her pups and that's to be applauded; and it would be the same whether she'd been a forum member for 10 years or 10 minutes.

> I don't think it's a lot to ask to expect breeders to have enough money put aside for a dog to stay in kennels for a few weeks??

Pedlee has already paid out, I would imagine, at least the equivalent of kennel fees, in transport, food, vet fees etc.

I don't think I'm quite saying that, JG, although of course to try to show that my opinion is invalid, you could always exaggerate it to a complete extreme... ;)

Having sufficient funds to kennel a dog for a few weeks is not quite the same as being 'immune from the effects of any economic recession'.  Not sure what becoming ill has to do with it, as a dog would be in kennels.  What is 'logistically impossible' about having funds set aside for unexpected kennelling?

In my eyes the point is quite simple:

1.  There are many more dogs in the world than there are homes for them.  Worldwide, we are destroying hundreds of dogs on a daily basis, because there are not homes for them.

2.  If you are going to be a 'breeder' - which means someone who brings more dogs into the world, voluntarily and by choice - then you need to be able to make exceptional provisions for those dogs to be able to justify your choice to bring more into the world.  You have particular responsibilities - and great ones.

3.  If you cannot make exceptional provisions for them, and they end up using up valuable rescue resources, then I cannot see that as being 'responsible breeding' - howsoever you reason this particular situation to have come about, and whatever the particular circumstances are.  There are just no exceptions.

> If you cannot make exceptional provisions for them, and they end up using up valuable rescue resources, then I cannot see that as being 'responsible breeding' - howsoever you reason this particular situation to have come about, and whatever the particular circumstances are.  There are just no exceptions.

Oh well since none of us can be sure exactly how our circumstances will chagne maybe 10 or 15 years from now, all ethical breeders had better not breed any more and leave the production of dogs to the  thoughtless money makers who couldn't give a sh1t what happens to the puppies they produce as long as they get  their money!!!

Really, you couldn't keep aside a few hundred pounds for emergency kennelling?  Yes, if you can't do that, then I think you'd better not breed!

Ok so an emergency comes up that affects your family that your emergency kennel funding is needed. Are you saying that you would put your family second to the possibility of a dog coming back ?

> Really, you couldn't keep aside a few hundred pounds for emergency kennelling?  Yes, if you can't do that, then I think you'd better not breed!

yes, there have been times in my life when I would have been unable to raise a tenner. I am not in that position now and hope never to be again but How do I know that it wont?  Come to think of it  how do you know that you won't at sometime in the future be unable to keep your dogs and might have to pass them on to rescue?

I'm sure that when Pedlee's over this crisis she'll recompense the rescue for their help.

Boarding Kennels require vaccinations or titre tests to board your dog can you guarentee that 8 years after you have sold a pup it will have either of these things to be able to kennel it or are you suggesting that the dog should remain in the care of the council kennelling until its time is up which after all in most cases is only 7 days. A litter doesnt grow up in 7 days a new foster carer maybe found but this then means the dog moves around once more pushed from piller to post at least now the dog will stay with breed rescue until full checks and assesments are done and a suitable home found.

Really, you couldn't keep aside a few hundred pounds for emergency kennelling?  Yes, if you can't do that, then I think you'd better not breed!

Granted, but with moving, c- section, rearing pups, that emergency money seems to have been spent, I certainly would never ask Pedlee to go into her finances that is private, but perhaps with moving, doing up a new house on top of everything else, credit cards, savings etc are gone at this time, now that can happen to each and every one of us.

A responsible breeder to me is someone who cares, who worries, who tries to do what is best, Pedlee has done all of those things and who knows she may well end up with the dog anyway if the D. Rescue are not able to place him.

I could look at things the same way as you from the safety of my home and knowing I have the funds if needed to use a kennel, but I've learnt in life people get knocks and people have financial emergencies and troubles and I try not to be so complacent. :-)

So let me get this right rabid. Not only should I be able to see into the future and have a purpose built kennel to allow for a returned pup to stay at any time, plan litters more carefully so that they don't coincide with moving house, have a spare room free at all times to allow for a returned dog that may need isolation and keep thousands in reserve for c-sections/breeding complications/kennelling fees and I should somehow be able to plan that none of the above happen at the same time (which is what has happened to me)?

Things happen, timings aren't always perfect and sometimes what we'd like to do just isn't possible....

There are a good few expressions that spring to mind that I would not dare use on here but perhaps 'let them eat cake' sums up the lack of insight.

I strikes me that those who think Pedlee lacked foresight should perhaps take a look at themselves when it come to insight.