> i agree but can only go by what op has said and on that alone iv said what ive said if she says all helth done we can only believe that because the breeder of her bitch surely wouldnt help and find a stud without knowing the results!?.

Good point!

Good points Dorcas.

I try to answer questions as quickly as I can!  I am not what you would call a professional breeder, bunt I do recognise my responsibility to my litters I always have. From what I have gathered from several talks with the breeder:

Once my bitch had her puppies, my bitches breeder visited the stud dog owner to look at another litter and saw photographs of my puppies has decided to start a new line - the same line as my bitch.  She says she is at the top of her game and there are people in her breed circles who are desperate to steal her lines.  She doesn't want this to happen and so wants to restrict my bitch and my puppies.  I do not have a copy of a contract that was signed at the time of purchase.  It doesn't really matter as I knew the endorsement existed and I won't lie. All along my breeder knew I wanted to breed, I have had bitches from her before and she has always in the past assisted and advised, even when my first bitch was not endorsed I spoke to her to get her advice since she is far more knowledgeable than me. If I sign the contract I will stick to it, whether it is legally enforeceable or not.  I do not intend to ever go back on my word.
The KC was very understanding and said they agreed that what was being done didn't sound fair or legal, but that this situation was not in their regs so there is nothing they can do.  I cannot afford to take the risk of not getting the dogs registered, it isn't fair on them or the breed.  One of the reasons we vet owners and charge for puppies is to ensure the new owners have thought long and hard and can afford a puppy for its whole life. I hope I have answered all questions?
I appreciate you are only getting my side, all I asked for was advice on what to do, not to be judged or to have ny breeder judged.
Again, thank you for all the advice and kind support.

I've been reading with interest and will not comment on either the breeder nor mentors ethics but...
as for the contract, I'm pretty sure it's not legally binding as their are no witnesses.  I take contracts as a 'how to' rather than a 'must do' (Kind of like a guide?) When I write them as they are pretty un-enforcable.
It is entirely up to you how you do this.  After all, it's you that's trying to show this breed where she is obviously quite high up, breed wise.  I, however, got sick of the 'school bully' attitude of some people who think they can control what I do.  Grew some nuts, as my gross OH would say!!lol

> It doesn't really matter as I knew the endorsement existed and I won't lie.

It does matter actually because the wording of the contract could go in your favour with the KC providing you have adhered to the requests then they could remove them IF its worded the right way. 

Just an observation on the latest information provided but would any good knowledgable breeder change what I presume would be medium to long terms plans for her breeding strategy and direction based on some photos of a litter of puppies rather than seeing them first hand and also by the age of the puppies at the moment ? Seems very strange to me and doesn't sound like the full facts and reasons have been really determined or spoken about.

Agree Claire the key is what was in the original contractand terms under which the endorsement would be lifted. You should have a copy to refer to, breeder should also keep a copy, if you have met the requirement in the original contract Not the new version the KC will lift the endorsement. If that original contract states the breeder is under no obligation to lift endorsements in any circumstances you have no case.

all i see is ppl trying to help you ,if you stick to what you sign thats fine but you still cant stop them showing what would be the point in kcrg the litter???....i really dont see much point in any of it why do the new onwers want the pup kc ,you or the breeder cant stop any of the new owners showing the pups.

Nonetheless, assuming that these are the facts, the fact remains that the bitch breeder arranged and involved herself in three separate matings (two with her son's dog) with the very same bitch she refuses to lift an endorsement on. How does one explain this?!

The stud dog owner, presumably a member of the breed club and who has a lifelong responsibility for the welfare of the pups, is also colluding in this...why?

I think we should put the contract to one side (it is something of a fig leaf for the bitch breeder it seems to me) and look  squarely at the actions of the bitch breeder- actions speak louder than words, they say.  That is if we are being told about events exactly as they happened.

My next move would be as mentioned before, to ensure I had a copy of the original contract then I would approach the breed club for their advice.  If this person is so "high up" within the breed I expect the breed club wouldn't condone this sort of behaviour.

It seems to me that this lady has been surprised by the quality of this litter and is feeling a little threatened.  This would explain the apparent shift in direction for 'her line' to emulate the mating with one of her bitches. 

Me, I would get the puppies registered, agree to the puppies endorsements and then lift once the new puppy owners had met the requirements set out by YOU and the new puppy owner as any contract only exists there, not with a third wheel, your bitches breeder.  The KC and (I expect the breed club) would back you as this breeder has no claim on the puppies and the new criteria is unjust.

Also, just as an aside...if I was the breeder I would just ask for a bitch from this litter which is surely the quickest way to get your hands on this new bloodline without the time and expense of having to produce your own litter?

I do wonder if the OP offered the breeder a bitch she may become more likely to honour the agreements as set out in the original contract??

The thing is we do not know the exact wording or the T&Cs in the contract.

> I do not have a copy of a contract that was signed at the time of purchase. 

The kennel Club require something signed by both parties re the endorsements, if there is nothing the breeder has signed by you about the endorsements they can lift them, as they are not properly placed.

This refers: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/365

"In attempt to lessen the Kennel Club's involvement in what is essentially a private dispute, the Kennel Club will apply the following criterion when assessing whether or not an endorsement should be lifted, as per Kennel Club regulation B12. Written confirmation must be obtained from the new owner at the time of sale to state that they have been made aware of any proposed endorsements, even if the endorsed registration certificate is given at the time of sale. In the event of a dispute where such evidence exists, the Kennel Club would normally decide in favour of the vendor's endorsements being retained. Conversely, in the absence of such written evidence, the Kennel Club would normally decide in favour of the purchaser and lift the endorsement. However, this would only apply in cases where a dog is transferred from the person who placed the endorsement to a new ownership."

Also I am sorry the lines in a breed belong to the breed not to one person to control, they may have been developed by a person, based on what their predecessors passed on, but the whole point is to benefit the breed as a whole.

I am grateful for all your support.   I did offer a puppy.  I don't really think there is anything else I can say or do to change the situation.  The only thing reporting to breed club would do would be to antagonise further and I sorry to say I have been bullied into submission, I am not a fighter.  Sadly, I do not think I have any choice but to sign the new contract.  I have however learned a very valuable lesson for the future.

That was my understanding too ,Brainless. I cannot understand why the KC are not being more helpful in this situation.

Karrie appears to have done her utmost to breed a healthy litter of puppies. I assume from her posts that she has done all the relevant health screening and been open to mentoring by the breeder of her bitch. Now she has a litter of puppies which cannot be registered if this situation is not resolved. I can only agree that by refusing to lift the endorsement, the Kennel Club are endorsing the breeding of an unregistered litter. This makes nonsense of their oft reported excuse for registering puppies bred from non health tested parents ,that it keeps the puppies under their umberella ( or words to that effect).
Without wishing to digress, I'd like to share an experience I had over the Xmas period. I was telephoned by a lady who had two large litters of a popular breed 'on the ground ' and was seeking my advice/help to sell them . She had done no health screening whatsoever, was unable to tell me the kennel names/breeding of the girls, other than that they had lots of champions in the pedigree. Nor did she have the name of the stud dog to hand but assured me that he had been 'tested'. The same boy had 'done ' both girls for a very low stud fee and she assured me that she hadn't expected both girls to get pregnant. The puppies were being reared in a barn although I must say, she had made huge efforts to rear them very well  and I was impressed by the efforts she had made to recussitate a sickly puppy. But...these puppies were being sold at top market price and, of course, she had no problem registering them with the KC because no endorsements had been placed on the registrations of her girls. I was very patient with her but could not help but think, another breeder might have given her an 'earful' and quite right too ! As far as I'm aware all the puppies are sold. Seems very unfair in the light of Karrie's situation.

Karrie, it's unfair for you to have been bullied into submission, lesson learnt or not!

Do the KC run a scheme where they have representatives or volunteers geographically spread that could help?  Maybe called district advisors that could pursue this with further with the KC on Karrie's behalf?

I have had bitches from her before

I do recognise my responsibility to my litters I always have.

So you have had bitch(s) and litter(s) via this breeder before, a much more intricate relationship than previously thought, what were her requirements previously, have you been able to show or breed from the previous bitches you have had from her? It all sounds to be much more complicated than previously thought and you obviously have a strong relationship and history here.

Looks as though you did not actually sign the endorsement requirements at the time of your girls purchase (that really is the get out, you have to sign) but you are going by your word that you knew she was endorsed, you can know...... but if you don't sign the papers it is not a legal endorsement, it really is your get out to having the breeding endorsement lifted, you were quite willing to have the KC lift once you complained about the contract, so why not knowing it was not a legally binding endorsement?

If you really do not want to fight this as your word is your bond if you sign this contract, (bless you) three questions:

1)  Have you actually talked to your girls breeder about this?
2)  Have you asked if she would at least not have a problem with you showing and breeding from the dog/bitch you keep?
3)  What on earth is the point of this litter?   There has to be a point!

If you continue with this contract you must get your puppy owners to also sign to say they understand the endorsements that not only will you never, ever lift a breeding endorsement, but your owners are not to show their dog either, they too can decide to blow you a big raspberry if they wish to show in the future....... but at least you will not be angering the breeder who you have a relationship with in playing your part in this 'wish list' of a ludicrous contract.

In conclusion.....this contract is not legally binding but you are keeping your word, maybe as time goes on you will think stuff it, I'm lifting, showing and potentially (if all is well) breeding from my dog, but that is up to you. :-)

Health testing:  My bitch has a lower than average hip score - it's so low I want to scream it from the roof tops!  This breed isn't required to have any other testing.  I took advice on what precautionary medicine to get from the vets prior to mating and during pregnancy: anti biotics and herpes. 

> That was my understanding too ,Brainless. I cannot understand why the KC are not being more helpful in this situation.
>
>

did she explain there was no signed document re endorsements, or was I reading it wrong and there was but she had not kept/had/lost her copy.

I don't recall if we had a written agreement, I certainly didn't get a copy and to be honest I am afraid to ask for a copy as it is bound to rock the boat. 

ps, I don't think anyone can control the showing element?

To Carrington.  Thank you for all your comments.  I knew the endorsement existed.  My breeder knew all along that I would want to breed and was extremely helpful when my bitch came into season.  The trouble began after my pupies were born.  There was never any suggestion that I would not be able to breed and there was never any suggestion that I would NEVER EVER be ale to lift endorsements I placed on my puppies.

> I don't recall if we had a written agreement

Get back onto the kennel club and demand that she proves that the endorsements were in place and you signed an agreement with the T&C's on it, if she cant produce the document then she is in breech and the KC should lift the endorsement. 

Karrie, I know your intimidated and worried about standing up for yourself here and none of us are in your shoes, but you'll only get it changed if you talk to your breeder 'nicely' about how much this litter meant to you, let her see the human side from your point of view on this, that the whole purpose was to be able to show and breed from your bitch yourself as she knew and originally agreed to, that you feel the whole thing is unfair and you have put your bitch through all this, yourself, the stud dog all for nothing if this contract stands.

You are endorsing your pups and will not lift, (as a courtesy to her wises) there is no need for any kind of contract between you, you are making sure they all go to pet homes only, but the bitch/dog you keep and put your dam through all this for needs to be the purpose for the mating.

This breeder must have a heart?

As a last ditch attempt lay it on the line, tell her how upset you are, you have nothing to lose, and if all else fails I guess you sign.......... I truly would ignore it though, and do what I wanted - but you're very honest and it does go a long way in the dog world, although you may wish to say you only signed under duress and threat of not having KC registered pups?  Your still being honest and no-one would think ill of you. :-)

I think a number of us would like to sort this out on your behalf, both with the KC, with the breeder and with the breed club.

There is an argument that by bringing this right out into the open you are doing a greater good for the breed. However, you would probably lose this woman's friendship and you might have to outface a number in the breed club who prefer to sweep things under the carpet/turn a blind eye, especially if your 'mentor' is influential.

I would not trust this woman in future, she is clearly capable of being ruthless and bending the rules to suit her own purposes- whatever they may be.

I think your only hope would be to form an alliance with the stud dog owner and see if they would stand with you on this issue and then to try to find yourself a new breed mentor. As you say though, you are not a fighter and you need to find a way through that does not create huge anxiety for you.

If the mentor is 'influential' then even more reason to flush this out in the open as doesn't this type of 'influence'need nipping in the bud to stop such practices carrying on. This is just bullying in the sense of not caring about anybody or anything but their own gain and self importance.

>However, you would probably lose this woman's friendship

I think that ship has sailed really, with friends like that who would need enemies?!

M.

I'm trying to piece together this jigsaw. :)

Am I right in thinking that you've been 'working' with this breeder and having bitches from her (and breeding from them?) for 13 years?  Have you been showing them too?

If you've only been breeding from the bitches and they are going to pet homes, does it matter that they are endorsed?  I would endorse all my puppies anyway unless they were going to show homes/exhibitors that I trusted.......

Karrie do you have the bitches KC registration ?
Did you transfer ownership to you at the time of purchase ?
Was the bitch sold to you on breeding terms ?
Did you pay full price for the bitch ?
Did you also pay full price for stud fees which is in most breeds equivalant to the price of a puppy?
Did you get a puppy pack with the bitch ?
What documents were in the pack ?

As others have said if the endorsements were not talked through with you at the time of purchase and you and the breeder did not sign then as far as I can see the endorsement is invalid.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed.  I think we have reached the end of any possible solutions - other than the one my bitches breeder wants.

On that note, I'll close this thread now.