Good for you Kenzi. Anything that can be done to stop these sort of people and the trail of heartache they leave behind is a good thing.
Good luck with your lovely puppy, please come back and let us know how you get on, the information may help someone else in the same situation in the future.

As I don't think DNA tests are reliable to find out breed, I think your only option will be to find a championship Poodle judge to have a look at your dog and give a statement -how else will you be able to prove it ISN'T a Poodle? Maybe contact one of the breed clubs for help?

Thats actually a very good idea,im no expert but even just looking at him his ears are a totally different shape to poodle ears,you cant see in the pics but they are set higher up and flop down,rather like a larger version of schnauzer ears if you get what i mean and at the weekend my friend noticed he doesnt have the same tail as poodles either.Im no sure this isnt a badly bred poodle but actually a poodle mix as he does seem to have a soft poodle puppy coat and not one person we meet on walks guesses he is a poodle.I just hope i manage to do something before they breed another litter.if anyone knows the member pippasmummy then can you please  aske her to pm me.thanks

I hope you do get to stop this breeder hun, And the KC need to know that a bad breeder is reg there puppies as KC. God only knows how the sires and dams are treated by this breeder but the pictures in my head dont show a nice picture. good luck and well done for not giving up

DNA tests to discover dog breed origins are much more accurate. The KC launched a partnership with Wisdom at Discover dogs last year so that owners of 'Heinz 57' types can find out what breeds are behind their crossbred dogs. Recent studies have shown some breeds to be closer linked genetically than it has been thought previously.

Thanks,ive had a look and wisdom seems really reliable so i will give it a go x

Kenzi I do hope you get to the bottom of this, if only for your own peace of mind.  As I've said previously I think you may have a so called 'Schnoodle' a cross of poodle & schnauzer.  I know it was mentioned these are usually marketed at a higher price but in today's market where litters can be hard to shift you'll be find that suddenly the puppies the breeder has for sale will be the breed you are calling about.  A friend who stupidly rang a gumtree number about a Jack Russel was told they were all sold but they had one that wasn't picked up from a deposit and did they want that, they agreed as long as it was a smooth haired one.  She picked it up for £150 and while dropping her to work the next day it was in the car with her husband.  I can't resist puppy kisses so jumped in for a wee cuddle, the clipper lines were all over it's body and head and it was as close as I've ever seen to an Irish Terrier x JR puppy.  You guessed it, she now has a long haired ginger ITxJR pup who she loves to bits but not what she was sold.

With regards to the ears, a poodle has long ear leathers and as a pup if you pull them forwards towards the nose they should almost reach, with a schnauzer they are set higher and shorter.  Also when schnauzers are teething you can get some ears lifting a little so they stick out a bit, sometimes they even stand up, so keep a close eye on the ears, if they start moving up and out then probably not full poodle.  I looked at your pictures again and I just think he is gorgeous, has a very cute kissy wee face, I'd see this wee man fell on his feet when he landed in your family :-)

well out on a walk today we were stopped several times and again no one guessed what he was and one even said that she had poodles all her life and that this little guy was definately not a poodle.He seems to be changing daily and any poodley features he did have are disappearing fast,this is very worrying because it means that a lot of these horrible breeders can pass these pups off as poodles when they are very young because its harder to tell.

I wouldn't take too much notice of the people you meet on walks Kenzi ;)   Very few will have any breed expertise ;)

I get told regularly that my Bedlington Terriers are just Poodles in a Bedlington clip   by Poodle owners!   That's when I'm not being told I have a lovely 'Doodle'      They aren't poorly-bred Bedlingtons either and have all done very well at the shows.

It was even worse when they were young pups - then EVERYONE said what lovely Poodle pups I had! despite the Bedlington clip!

Sad to say, the average person in the street hasn't a clue what they're looking at with pups or dogs ;)

Regarding changing every day, have a search on here for posts from people panicking about the show pup they have kept/bought going out of shape, nose too long/short, ears going awry, legs going gangly ('at the legs and wings stage' is how it's often referred to ;)   And how many experienced people feel they've let the best of the litter go.  If experienced breeders find it difficult, how much more so when you haven't got experience in the breed or in rearing pups ;)

> well out on a walk today we were stopped several times and again no one guessed what he was and one even said that she had poodles all her life and that this little guy was definately not a poodle.

Could that be because he is a non-standard colour?
If you want a definitive answer, I'd try an established Poodle breeder (who would know what stages they go through as puppies) or as Goldmali suggested, a judge.

I understand what youre saying but this isnt about having a fluffy coat or a non standard colour,his ears are starting to stick out and flop over they are nothing like poodle ears,even if he was a standard colour he wouldnt look like a poodle.he is getting his haircut soon but thats not going to make him look anymore like a poodle,he will just have a poodle haircut,a bit like the pic of the black poodle posted earlier that has a bedlington clip which proves a haircut can change them in to what you want but i know in my heart he isnt a full poodle but gorgeous never the less.however this is about stopping the breeder doing this again,remember they have registered 2 random dogs as the parents and thats fraud x

> however this is about stopping the breeder doing this again,remember they have registered 2 random dogs as the parents and thats fraud x

Most definitely.... and I am on your side, just making sure.... and I hadn't realised his ears were starting to fly! As Marianne said, you won't get expert proof that he isn't a Poodle unless you go to a breeder or show judge who can state that he isn't (rather like having an expert witness in court cases).

>Could that be because he is a non-standard colour?

If you want a definitive answer, I'd try an established Poodle breeder (who would know what stages they go through as puppies) or as Goldmali suggested, a judge.

I agree with Ms T, I know your aim is now to stop the breeder which is brilliant if she's breeding crosses and passing them off as poodles. But I'm on an American cocker forum and even in America where the breed is popular, the people on the street have no idea what they are if the person has a less well known colour, people with red/whites are told they are Cavalier crosses, and as for the sables! And these are often well bred examples too. Nobody over here ever knows what George is. I think your puppy is lovely whether poodle or schnoodle, but I admit I'm very curious as to what the DNA test will confirm!

In the past  people have often commented on my black American Cocker pups as being "lovely poodles".  The info from the person in the street, even if they have had the breed for years is not reliable.  I think we all understand you want some sort of legal redress with the breeder, and support you, but I don't understand your unwilingness to follow my advice, which has been echoed by lots of other posters too, to get a written opinion from a respected poodle breeder and or judge.  This will certainly help with your case against the breeder.  Ideally, your best evidence is DNA from the registered parents, and from your pup, to prove they cannot be the parents, but this would only work if they are microchipped so can be positively identified, I think.

I, apparently, own Alsatian cross Collies and Chihuahuas, according to the people you meet when out walking -and even according to some vets. There was even the one vet that tried to tell me there was no such thing as a Malinois, as it wasn't listed on her computer! And yes it works the other way around too. There are dodgy breeders. I met a couple at training club once who asked who had bred my "GSD" as she looked so similar to theirs. (The only similarity, apart from breed, was the lack of a saddle.) They had been sold a Malinois as a GSD as the breeder didn't have any GSD pups left! (I know exactly who it was.) It all just goes to prove that unless you're very involved in a breed with showing etc, it can be hard to tell a breed, especially when it's not a good example. And to PROVE  legally it is a certain breed or not you do need expert witnesses. My ex husband was heavily involved with the DDA, being a canine journalist. I remember he used to say the prosecution in court cases would use a scale of points to prove if a dog was an illegal Pit Bull or not, but that even a Yorkshire Terrier would score around 80 points out of 100, as it had a pair of eyes, a pair of ears, four legs etc......

he is getting his haircut soon but thats not going to make him look anymore like a poodle,he will just have a poodle haircut,a bit like the pic of the black poodle posted earlier that has a bedlington clip which proves a haircut can change them in to what you want

Kenzi, you have just illustrated perfectly what I was trying to get across, you seem to think that the black poodle with the Bedlington haircut looks like a Bedlington.  To me he's just a Poodle with a haircut - there's no way I'd be fooled by a clipped poodle.  I was presented with an expertly clipped Poodle (Bedlington Clip) at Crufts the year before last and wasn't fooled in the slightest - I knew what it was straight away despite it being a non-standard Poodle colour as well!

I hope this shows you just how difficult it can be for a non-expert to really know what they are looking at ;)  Contact an experienced Poodle breeder or judge as suggested and you will have more of an idea of what you're dealing with. 

I totally agree with you wanting to stop these people fraudulently selling pups, but the last thing you need is to weaken your case by incorrectly identifying your pup and an expert opinion is your best option IMHO

By the way, at 16 weeks+,  teething is beginning and pups' ears can do very strange things.  Drop ears can begin to 'fly', pricked ears can drop, and all sorts in between ;)

well thats my solicitor appointment booked,hope these awful breeders get what they deserve!! just for the record if they are found to have registered a fake litter,would the the kc ban them from registering future litters?

They may well fine and ban them from dog activity for a number of years but they will go on breeding dogs and selling them unregistered because that is what they are doing now. But that is no reason for you not to continue.

> hope these awful breeders get what they deserve!

Do we buyers also get what we deserve?  Who pays the price for our lack of research?  There is a lot of information available about how to find good breeders, and the steps a potential purchaser should take to ensure they get a healthy puppy from tested parents and a puppy that at least resembles the breed the it is supposed to be.

I've read not only your posts Kenzi but literally dozens of others over a fairly short period of time and I'd dearly love to know how people like you are missing this advice.  Could your experience inform others?  Where would YOU put all this advice so that others do not get duped?

It's so disheartening to keep reading that well meaning puppy buyers are falling for such nonsense from misinformed, unethical puppy producers ... :(

I guess some breeders can talk the talk and sometimes people make mistakes and have to learn from them but im trying to correct my mistake to save someone else the upset of buying a pup that isnt what they paid for!

I have been following this thread with interest.for some (very annoying) reason I cannot see the pictures so can't comment on what breed your pup looks like. HOwever,I would like to add that by going down the legal route and attempting to get justice by stopping the 'breeder' ever duping anyone again is honourable. You,like many others have been caught out.after much research I thought I had found the perfect breeder but in hindsight I could have found better.we all make mistakes. The easiest thing for you to Do would ae to say 'oh well' and get on with enjoying your pup.by making a stand which won't be cheap or easy,is,IMHO highly commendable so good on you

> I guess some breeders can talk the talk and sometimes people make mistakes and have to learn from them but im trying to correct my mistake to save someone else the upset of buying a pup that isnt what they paid for!

Admirable kenzi, and well worth pursuing if you've been lied to.  However I think it just as important to educate buyers to look elsewhere as it is to stop this sort of breeder with prosecutions.  If these unscrupulous breeders start to find it more and difficult to sell their puppies then they may stop breeding - as it won't provide the level of easy income they are hoping for.

If you did no research at all then that is one thing but if you tried to research and found advice difficult to come by or hard to understand then perhaps that can easily be addressed by talking to the provider...

As a recommendation to others what would guidance would you give to prevent them from making the same mistake as you?  What websites or advice pages would you send them to?

> As a recommendation to others what would guidance would you give to prevent them from making the same mistake as you? What websites or advice pages would you send them to?

Breed Clubs.
Okay so not all breed clubs are equal; some are better than others. But you are more likely to find the honest breeders there, than anywhere. The usual caveats of 'See puppy with Mother', and 'Walk away if you don't like the conditions' still apply, as does 'Ask to see documentation'. It's not a foolproof recommendation but it has to be the only way I can think of to really guide a prospective buyer.

Join a breed club and visit more than one breeder . go to a local KC dog show to see your breed in the ring and meet and talk to people who know where to get a good puppy from. always see where the puppies were brought up and see them with there mum. exspect the breeder to ask you lots of questions and ask them if they offer life time suport. ask to see all the paper work such as health tests that the sire and dad has had. A good breeder is dedicated to the breed not just there own dogs. so you want to see photos on walls and breed related things everywhere including show rosettes. they will also be a member of there breed club . Always ask the breed club if a breeder is ok. as they will alway send you down the right path. and get as many books on the breed as you can so you can lean as much as as you can about the breed including what puppies should look like :)

Kenzi,  I tried to think what Id do in your position because you are one of many. We see them here on this forum all the time, there is even a breed specific forum for people who bought unhealthy specimens of my breed.
The common theme seems to be that most blame everyone else but themselves, try to sue the breeder, blame the KC etc

Perhaps if you really wanted to change things you would write everywhere the things youve learned from this experience.
Find out and post on the dog sites about how to find a reputable breeder, what checks you would now make and give tips to would be buyers in the minefield of puppy buying.

If you research this and put your anger there, youd make far more of a difference than chasing one puppy farmer who has very thick skin. ,

The common theme seems to be that most blame everyone else but themselves, try to sue the breeder, blame the KC etc
Hallelujah!  Well said tooolz! :) 
There is sooo much information on t'internet these days and on this site in particular that I can really see no reason for people to be making these mistakes and buying from such obviously unreliable puppy producers.  They all seem to start researching AFTER buying so that they can blame others rather than doing their research BEFORE they buy. :(

I think it will be very hard to educate the public totally 'en masse', but if we keep chipping away at individuals then at least we are helping some people see the light.
A friend from work decided it was time to get a certain breed of pup ( lovely lady and well suited to caring for a dog) and brought in all the local papers and was searching all the ads for a breeder or a pup. I was horrified and gave the details of puppy farms, BYB and all the health tests ( or lack of them ) etc etc and convinced her to search on CDs breeder listing. She found a lovely breeder not too far away, visited, was given the third degree. The breeder insisted on meeting the rest of the family, gave the husband the third degree as well as she wanted to make sure that all members of the family wanted the dog. My friend then waited 8 months for the pup to be born and ready for rehoming. She now has a beautiful pup with all health tests, she still speaks to the breeder on a regular basis to keep her updated and the breeder even looked after the pup for a weekend when my friend had a wedding to go to, to avoid the pup being looked after by some else that may upset the pup.
She is well pleased and feels the wait for the pup was well worth it, however she had no idea about PFs or BYBs and it really came as a shock to her to find out these things. So now she is passing on this info to other people she meets, so maybe slowly, slowly we will get a few people educated.

she had no idea about PFs or BYBs
sillysue :) I know nothing about the mechanics of a car so I don't look in the local newspaper or look on the net and buy the first one of the type that I want from there!  I ask people with more knowledge than me so that I stand a chance of buying something reliable.  And I'm Mrs Joe Bloggs!  No brain surgeon, just a 4 O-level girl!
I really don't understand people not taking time, trouble and advice when buying a dog that they are going to live with for hopefully the next 12+ years that needs to be healthy and have a good temperament to live with any children that are in the house or visit the home in that time.

"This post was to help me legally not insult me for not giving the pup a shaved face like a poodle.I have chosen to have him fluffy,i simply dont like seeing a poodle with a nose shaved to the bone regardless whether its the way man says it should be.i will take him to my groomers for a face trim bath and general neaten up but his coat is soft,smells devine and absolutely not a tangle in sight so please no more insults that my daughter neglects this little guy,you couldnt be further from the truth!! ( this is with regards to posts suggesting i dont make an effort or neglect the pup)"

Firstly, other than the colouring, I thought he could very well be pure poodle.  But Kenzi it is entirely your choice as to how you maintain your puppy's coat. He looks immaculately groomed to me.  Not had time to read this thread in its entirety...but do you know what, if more people opted to keep their poodles with unshaved faces and feet etc, there would never have been this ridiculous influx of silly poodle crosses. You only have to look on the puppy sites to see that under the poodle section there will be far more crosses than pure bred poodles - how sad is that ? I am a huge poodle fan and I actually like them in the pet clips (like the lamb clip), the show clips are fine for showing of course ;-)  But I do genuinely believe if there were more poodles around with more fluffy faces, they would be far more popular. They are fabulous dogs (especially the std imo) and it horrifies me to see how they are crossed with anything and everything because people want a cute fluffy dog (whether they get one is another matter) - ie they want their cross breed to inherit the poodles curly coat, it all beggars belief !

"his ears are starting to stick out and flop over they are nothing like poodle ears,even if he was a standard colour he wouldnt look like a poodle."

Hmm, I see your point. I wonder why they advertised this pup as pure bred poodle if he is a cross - they could probably have got more for him if they had admitted he was a cross breed. Unbelievable but true !

>I was horrified and gave the details of puppy farms, BYB and all the health tests ( or lack of them ) etc etc and convinced her to search on CDs breeder listing.

It is always worth recommending our excellent Puppy Buyer Guide: http://www.champdogs.co.uk/info/puppybuyer as a starting point. This way they get a good idea of what they should be looking for (and avoiding!) before they approach any breeders :)

sillysue I know nothing about the mechanics of a car so I don't look in the local newspaper or look on the net and buy the first one of the type that I want from there!  I ask people with more knowledge than me so that I stand a chance of buying something reliable.  And I'm Mrs Joe Bloggs!  No brain surgeon, just a 4 O-level girl!
I really don't understand people not taking time, trouble and advice when buying a dog that they are going to live with for hopefully the next 12+ years that needs to be healthy and have a good temperament to live with any children that are in the house or visit the home in that time.

West Coast are you a cautious person by nature? I'm not. Someone once said to me well you wouldn't buy a house without having a survey would you. Well yes I've bought several without any problems.

I've bought dogs from ads in the paper becasue I didn't know any better. I didn't think about the consequences because I'm not a worrier. Since coming on here I realise that it makes sense to go to a breeder and get a health tested dog.  I know an accountant who bought his lab from a someone he arranged to meet at a service station. Its not just about intelligence its about educating people.

Toolz and westcoast....i have only ever blamed the breeder and myself for this mess,not once have i blamed the kc,they were and have been absolutely fantastic!!!

Cav lover,thanks for the lovely comment,he does has a wonderfully groomed coat,not clipped but in immaclate condition and even when he goes for his appointment it will be a tidy up and teddy bear clip,no shaved face or pointed toes.

Freds mum and dogs a babe,thanks,i do feel like i need to do something and yes i will be giving advice to others from now on.my daughter actually looked in to getting this pup but i shouldve known better because i put so much effort in to searching for a show pup,a pet should be no different,i know that now!

West Coast are you a cautious person by nature? I'm not. Someone once said to me well you wouldn't buy a house without having a survey would you. Well yes I've bought several without any problems.
No Flora2, I'm not cautious nor am I foolhardy - it's all about risk assessment.  I've also bought many houses without surveys - I know what I'm looking for.  But I know nothing about cars and so I would ask for help from someone who does.

The people who buy from bybs or puppy farms (not referring the OP here) obviously don't know what they're doing or they wouldn't consider viewing the pups having read the adverts.  They make their choice, pay their money and live with the consequences of their actions, which we all have to in our lives.  My objection is when they try to blame others for their thoughtless actions.  We all make the wrong decision sometimes and we need to accept the responsibilty for that.  It's buyer beware in every purchase.

I'd like to add, that even if you,ve read up on what to look for in a breeder, it's still very easy to find yourself making the wrong decision if you only visit when puppies are on the ground. The heart can easily rule the head and nagging doubts can be sidelined.

I made a terrible mistake this way a few years ago. I had actually done loads of research, spoken to and visited breeders to find out all about the breed and been added to the waiting list of a litter which would have been perfect for me. However i was very curious about a litter I had heard about via a breeder I'd spoken to - one from working lines.

There was no fraud or misrepresentation by the breeder - infact she is scrupulously honest. I just made a foolish choice and then didn't back out when I had the chance.

I visited and put down a deposit and then started to worry that it was the wrong choice. There were lots of pointers that it was a bad decision (temperament of the dam and limited socialisation of pups), but I felt committed by then - not by the money ( it was a very small deposit) but I didn't want to let the breeder or the puppy down.  Lots of heartbreak later, I have certainly learned from my mistake. I'd always visit the breeder prior to a litter being born now, and I see it as the sign of a good breeder that they'd want you to.

Sometimes it takes making  a painful mistake - or witnessing someone else do so, to make your realise all the advice is there for good reason.

Your bad experience will make us all more aware of the fraudsters out there, and anyone reading this thread can learn from it, so thanks telling us about it.

Thanks toon x

I made a terrible mistake this way a few years ago.
We've all made mistakes Toon.  The difference is that you're accepting responsibilty for your mistake, not trying to blame someone else......... :)

If this is aimed at me then what you are saying is the breeder isnt to blame?  i an NOT  randomely blaming people,i have blamed myself for being stupid but im also sick of people joining in with this post who clearly just enjoy an argument so yet again.....of course i want to take legal action because regardless whether ive made a stupid mistake,the breeder has broken the law and needs to be stopped otherwise there will be dozens of other so called kc reg mini poodles out there that arent actually poodles,please no more insults,i came on for advice legally,ive now made an appointment to see a solicitor,i am accepting ive made a mistake but i dont even know you and you dont kno me so please stop judging me!!!!! just for the record,apart from the breeder who is clearly in the wrong who am i meant to be blaming??

Perhaps before you go to a solicitor you need proof that the puppy isn't the breed you bought?

I'm not sure his nose not looking like you think it should and being doubtful his ear carriage might not be quite right is quite good enough to take legal action against the breeder.

There's nothing like having a bit of proof in court :-)

Charlie brown,unfortunatly there is more to it than perhaps being a cross breed.the litter was advertised as kc reg,after several weeks of getting nowhere with the breeder i called the kc and was told they hadnt even registered a litter of poodles,when i questioned the breeder they got quite abusive and promptly reg a litter but the mum was a completly different colour.now the pup is changing daily,its very difficult to see in a pic but he is nothing like a poodle,its not his colour or his fluffy coat he is simply not like a full poodle and i still have all the emails as proof that he is meant to be,even if he was they have reg a litter with the wrong parents and are claiming to only have one female poodle but i have emails,with pics attached that says otherwise.x

Charlie brown,unfortunatly there is more to it than perhaps being a cross breed.the litter was advertised as kc reg,after several weeks of getting nowhere with the breeder i called the kc and was told they hadnt even registered a litter of poodles,when i questioned the breeder they got quite abusive and promptly reg a litter but the mum was a completly different colour.now the pup is changing daily,its very difficult to see in a pic but he is nothing like a poodle,its not his colour or his fluffy coat he is simply not like a full poodle and i still have all the emails as proof that he is meant to be,even if he was they have reg a litter with the wrong parents and are claiming to only have one female poodle but i have emails,with pics attached that says otherwise.x

It is always worth recommending our excellent Puppy Buyer Guide

Thanks admin, yes I gave her a link to this as well, she was well pleased with CD and very grateful for the advice and the excellent breeder she found here. She has passed this advice on to her sister and neighbour as they are looking for pups as well. This is what I mean about teaching one person the correct way to find a pup can snowball and spread to many others by word of mouth.
As buying a pup is usually done far less frequently than buying a car then this is why many people do not realise the pitfalls. It needs education, as common sense often goes out of the window when confronted by the thought of a beautiful fluffy pup.( this is not in any way pointed at you Kenzi )

Yes Kenzi, but it would serve your case better to have all the problems backed up as evidence.  You have to remember that if this goes to court you are putting a lot of facts in front of the judge, the more facts and expert opinions you have in your papers the better.  If you have the proof that the pup's Mum is one colour and the registered Mum is another that is great, but if part of your claim is also that the pup is not 100% poodle you will need some expert opinion of this if DNA proof is not available or totally reliable.  If you are not adding the porbablility he is not all poodle to yoru cliam, then of course the expert opinion does not matter on that issue.

i would really reccomend getting a dna test to prove 1 way or the other x

Yes im definately getting him dna tested and would am also getting him checked by someone ho has experience with poodles.