and you only need a spot check (the french are stopping a lot of people to check they have brethalisers and hi viz, traingles etc).

So, besides knowing that France is strict and doesn't let in pups under 12wks and that Holland is relaxed and does allow this - do we know what other European countries do about pups under 12wks being imported?

You have to check the rules with each country's embassy/consulate.  In the old days MAFF- had a print out for each country's rules, easy peasy in one place.

So, if you were doing this properly and by the book, and you wanted to buy a pup in eastern Europe and bring it to - say - the Netherlands, you'd need to check the regs for each country you're driving through and perhaps drive hundreds of miles out of the way via countries you're allowed to enter with an unvaccinated pup...?

Yep, or fly pup, in all but UK Ireland (where you can only fly a pet in Cargo) the checked baggage price for the pup is very reasonable.

There is a European Law which covers the movement of dogs into EU countries in regards to the rabies vaccine.  This states the same as your previous post detailing the Dutch rules.

"Member States may authorise the movement of animals listed in parts A and B of Annex I which are under three
months old and unvaccinated, if they are accompanied by a passport and have stayed in the place in which they were
born since birth without contact with wild animals likely to have been exposed to the infection or are accompanied
by their mothers on whom they are still dependent. "

As such France may have decided that they will not authorise such movement although many member states have and there is very little border control between most member states, certainly the borders between France, Germany, Belgium & Netherlands have no border controls, just a sign beside the motorway announcing your entry into the country much like county borders in the UK.

All EU member states are required to abide by this law.

France could technically allow it but I was told by their ministry of agriculture that permission would not be granted.
The pup travelled over there 3 weeks after his rabies jab- they weren't checked at all but it wasn't worth the risk to either me or his new owners.

Yeah I did quite a lot of googling into France and it seems that they've decided not to allow it.  No idea why, but France is a PITA for any paperwork, which it seems must be about 25 million pages long and incomprehensible even if you speak French.  So I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

I just wondered how the other EU countries are dealing with it and whether they are allowing it or not - it looks like Holland is. 

Had an enquiry from Italy and they too don't allow pups under 3 months in.  So it means 16 weeks if they want to import.

Is Holland the only place then I wonder?  What about Scandinavia?

Finland allows pups younger than three months without rabies vac...
Exported there 1.5 years ago.
Sweden has had different rules to most of the europe and UK, not sure what they are now after the changes beginning of the year.

Latvia allows them in as well, exported there few months ago at 10 weeks driving via Holland...
I'm pretty sure Germany is the same :)...

Noora, if you drove via Holland, am I right in thinking that you (or puppy owner) drove via France?

Will add Latvia and Finland to the list!

I think they would have driven straight to Germany :) poland and lithuania...

I just wanted to check if anything has changed, since this post ran in 2011-2, regarding importing pups to France?

I've had an enquiry from someone in Germany for a pup -  they would need to import to France from UK and then drive to Germany.

Are we still looking at rabies at 12wks and then 3wk wait, or has anything changed?

I believe it's now minimum of 12 weeks for rabies, but as the vaccines in UK are licensed for use from 3 months for the sake of a few days I'd do three months and 21 days wait, which still apples, though in addition since December 2014 there is the requirement for the owner to travel with or within five days so that it isn't classed as commercial movement.

Why can't they go via Holland?
If Holland & Germany allows pups to move before rabies ( don't know the current rules for above countries). Or fly from UK to Germany as generally coming from UK pups can travel without rabies if under certain age.

> If Holland & Germany allows pups to move before

You may find that info is out of date.

In 2012 we were all in EU required to harmonise re Pet movement, and that means no movement before Rabies and 21 day wait.  It's why now dogs coming in and out of the Republic of Ireland have the same requirements, even though in the past there was free movement between Eire and UK.

Fortunately UK and a couple of other countries were able to keep the requirement for tapeworm treatment.

I exported pup to Finland month ago and Finland definately allows imports without rabies coming from UK so thought there might be other countries the same in EU

Pups can no longer travel to Holland or Germany prior to completion of pet passport - rabies at 12weeks then 21 day before travel. No legsitimate way around this

Great, thanks folks. I guess we would need to keep & socialise this pup to 15ks.  Thanks....

Can I just check - what is required for travel to the US, as they are not part of the Pet Passport/EU?  Do they also require rabies for pups, and what age could pups go there?

I know under three months they didn't' need Rabies, and age depends on airline policy but there were some changes last year.  http://www.cdc.gov/importation/bringing-an-animal-into-the-united-states/dogs.html "Importation of Unvaccinated Dogs

Importation of dogs that are not vaccinated against rabies is allowed on a limited basis. Unvaccinated dogs may be imported if:
•They are arriving from a rabies-free country where they have lived for the past 6 months or since birth (check the country list here),"

I last sent one at 11 1/2 weeks, and another couple took one back in cabin at 9 weeks 10 years back

Great thanks - so it sounds like that would be ok to export from UK to USA without rabies jab, but after completing other initial jabs (so at 10wks?) as that would be a good idea I think...

They have differing timings for puppy jabs in USA, mien went with two, but their vets then did a third at 16+ weeks.

Most airlines have a minimum 12 week rule on flying puppies

Is that recent change as I have pups flown from 9 weeks (accompanied in cabin) and 10 weeks in hold and imported a pup at 9 weeks from USA in the days of Quarantine.

Perhaps some airlines are more  flexible if pups traveling  in cabin but certainly when looked into this previously the airlines were saying 12 weeks for travel in hold ( Australia, Canada, etc )
You wouldn't ever contemplate traveling one of my breed in cabin it would be chaos :)

I exported one of our puppies from the UK to Switzerland.  He was 4 months (I wouldn't fly a puppy younger than this) and I went with him.   He only needed a Health Certificate and of course, his Export Pedigree so he could be registered over there with the Swiss KC.   There was no need of rabies and it was the same with those hounds we took to Canada, and those we later had sent out to us from the UK.   It could have been done, but frankly I felt happier not to stress their systems any more than necessary.

I think all that has changed now MamaBas, as all the EU countries have come into line under the Pet Passport scheme.  Which sucks a bit for those which are rabies-free and previously could use fewer restrictions.

> You wouldn't ever contemplate traveling one of my breed in cabin it would be chaos :

They'd never be small enough they have to be under 5kg in the bag, LOL 

Even my breed can only just make it at 8 weeks, thankfully the 9 week old was not weighed

I have found young pups (have had them go from 9 to 14 weeks depending on various regulations) they travel very well, probably as a young puppy will just sleep.

> I have found young pups (have had them go from 9 to 14 weeks depending on various regulations) they travel very well, probably as a young puppy will just sleep.

Each to their own, bearing in mind not all breeds of puppies are the same.   Hounds are very sensitive and again I personally wouldn't subject one to a flight - which isn't just about the flight itself in any case - at under 4 months.  The one I flew with was that age, and the two I had sent to us in Canada as puppies, were 5 and 7 months respectively - two separate occasions.   Mind you I needed the extra time to make sure the early promise was still there!!!

Interesting that there are now blanket restrictions re rabies vac. a la Pet Passport.   Ridiculous when coming from country with no rabies!!

I think young pups often kick up a fuss and are fearful when first leaving, but then get tired quickly and fall asleep.  I think that, long before the flight began, they would be tired just from the car journey and the airport experiences. 

I picked up a pup in a hire car, drove to a train station (1hr) and took a 4.5hr train in 1st class(!), then flew in a private plane home (1hr), with pup in a bag with a zip-opening on my lap. 

Pup screamed blue murder during the car journey, and kept trying to climb out of the puppy bag next to me, and puked up 3 times.  I cleaned up and got the train.  Pup (exhausted) then slept without moving for the entire 4.5hr train journey and it was easy peasy.  Explored the airport for a bit (tiring) and then slept the flight in a very loud tiny plane. 

Other pups I've collected have made lots of noise at the start of the car journey and then generally been ok and gone to sleep after that.

Conclusion:  Most noise tends to happen at the start!  I would be worried about them in the hold, though - I'd definitely want the pup in the cabin.

> I would be worried about them in the hold, though - I'd definitely want the pup in the cabin.

As long as you don't take your seat to make sure the captain is doubly aware that there are live animals in hold (he should be anyway), and that yours is on board. 

The temperature in the hold is then between 15 - 20'C much more comfortable than the cabin temperature.

Having experienced the delay coming back from the US, when standing at Dublin airport waiting for the plane to be fixed, an it getting so hot, I was thankful she was in the hold, and much more comfortable.

> I would be worried about them in the hold, though - I'd definitely want the pup in the cabin.

As long as you don't take your seat to make sure the captain is doubly aware that there are live animals in hold (he should be anyway), and that yours is on board. 

The temperature in the hold is then between 15 - 20'C much more comfortable than the cabin temperature.

Having experienced the delay coming back from the US, when standing at Dublin airport waiting for the plane to be fixed, an it getting so hot, I was thankful she was in the hold, and much more comfortable.