Go & find yourself some good working HPR's.  Even the Natural Aptitude Test organised by the Large Munsterlander club takes in most of a day all the elements the dogs are expected to participate in.

But it's not continual high exertion, is it? I'd imagine there are good breaks in between the bursts of activity, just as there are on a shoot.

Neither is the GN, it's one race and then that's it, horses are entered for race after race on the day.  The Nat Apt is split into several parts and you get taken around each part and your dog is expected to show it's natural ability through tracking, pointing, water retrieve etc.

I don't believe any horse, not even the greatest long-distance runner, would be able to manage the exertion needed for a collie working sheep on the hills, for example. But that's not horses were designed to do.

>I find it hard to believe that the chances of a bitch dying are as high as 1 in 40.

For some breeds, if left to whelp naturally, the death rate would be a heck of a lot higher than that.

but thats why breeders avoid whelping naturally then, to cut down the risk - they don't continue with a high risk birth for the sake of it?

But that just perpetuates the cycle of bitches who are unable to give birth, either through body shape or inherited inertia.

Giving birth is inherently dangerous, with maternal and neonatal mortality always a risk to be considered. But you always hope that it will go well. It's the same mindset as entering your horse in a race.

> But that just perpetuates the cycle of bitches who are unable to give birth, either through body shape or inherited inertia

Well I can't say I find that acceptable either. But going back to this topic, I do not consider the risks to the horse acceptable.  I think to have a mindset where you accept that level of risk of fatal injury to your horse is inhumane.

Oh I agree - its a bit like only entering a horse in a race its capable of racing though - and a horse that needs oxygen after it races does not sound like a healthy candidate for the GN - so its placing the horse in an unacceptable risk.

>a horse that needs oxygen after it races does not sound like a healthy candidate for the GN

I agree totally - that horse shouldn't race again. It's owner/s should retire it to a less strenuous existence. In an ideal world all 40 starters would finish.

Been reading this with interest..

Would it be the same race if it was limited to half that number of runners?

I think it would massively cut down the risk of horses being injured/killed in the race if there were only 20 runners..

I havent paid much attention to waht Animal Aid have to say, I find them deeply misleading and not actually interested in animal welfare, but in politics and banning everything possible.

I have to say of the two horse racing 'versions' we have... (lets not include the lesser known equine 'racing' sports such as the driving stuff or endurance or arab racing) - I prefer the jumpers to the flat every time - those horses running are in their prime, are mature animals when they start and stand as good a chance as any competition horse of reaching a good old age. Compare to flat racers... well there is no comparison - you may not see many horses lose their lives IN a flat race, but the numbers that dont make it even into the trainers yard due to the way they are produced is disgusting, then the numbers from there that never make it to the track... then the ones who get to the track but break down soon after their first outing... That accounts for more horses than NH racing lose IN races, far far more.

But thats not what you see on the tv, so its ok? I really... dont see why (and ive worked on a flat racing yard and a NH racing yard!) flat racers cant be started even 18 months later than they are - uit would make such a MASSIVE difference to the numbers who make the grade, and the numbers who survive their first year.

Carla - i know you have retired/ ex racers and suspect your view may be slightly coloured by that (because the good uns from the good owners and good yards dont tend to wind up needing to be rescued!) - but if beating horses over fences was the way ALL NH horses were taught to jump theyd all be totally sour and be impossible to get to jump, or even impossible to get a jockey on them.

At a yard I worked at we had one mare brought in, aged 6 and she had been trained this way by a muppet. Fortunately shed been bought by a much nicer person and it took 12 months to get her to the point where you could take her on the gallops safely and take her over the schooling fences - she was SO sour about jumping! Once retrained shed loved it and ran very nicely, but abusing horses to make them jump does NOT produce winning NH racers - who on EARTH wants to ride something at those speeds, over fences, that is sour and nasty and wants rid of its rider at the first opportunity? Jockeys, especially jump jockeys, are not totally brain dead, and no decent jockey will risk his life on a horse that cant/wont jump sensibly.

>Carla - i know you have retired/ ex racers and suspect your view may be slightly coloured by that (because the good uns from the good owners and good yards dont tend to wind up needing to be rescued!) - but if beating horses over fences was the way ALL NH horses were taught to jump theyd all be totally sour and be impossible to get to jump, or even impossible to get a jockey on them.

I'm not sure I said NH horses get beaten to jump, if I did I didnt mean to. But there are a LOT of horses that get whipped in show jumping and I just can't stand it.

Ah now.... showjumping, ESPECIALLY the lower levels ... there is some absolutely horrific behaviour going on (and ive seen some shocking displays of anger taken out on horses by adult riders in televised events, whether thats young riders behaving that way getting away with it and carrying on... or just random one offs... i dunno)..

One thing i think doesnt help there is that the really talented jumpers tend to be what they call 'quirky' - and what Id call 'mad as a box of frogs', so from the grass roots level up, there are lot of kids out there starting on ponies they really cant control and moving up through the ranks to the eventual lunatic warmbloods... that they cant really control.. its painful to see even without anyone beating a horse up with their whip, riders fighting the horse all the way round a course!

I daresay (and i do know more about racing than show jumping having neeeeever liked leaving the ground much), that a lot of these horses are so heavily bred to jump and do appear to love jumping (see the ears lock forwards when Mr Frothing At The Mouth showjumper finally is actually facing the fence and with his head low enough to see it!), that they will take a helluva lot of abusive riding before they get so sour they cant be sold on.

And coming off round a show jumping course, even if you have the most lunatic jumper ever bred - is not the same risk as coming off at racing speed potentially under the hooves of 20+ other horses!...

> I'm not sure I said NH horses get beaten to jump, if I did I didn't mean to. But there are a LOT of horses that get whipped in show jumping

Comparing Apples with Oranges then. I think a comparison ( at the county level you gave) with  more credence would be point to point. ;) (from my experience I haven't seen this 'battering' of horses but some horrific saddle weights which is a more sustained and serious abuse to my mind)
    For my part I welcome the much needed changes that have come about since HRA took over from The Jockey Club and the sport has become more 'open' in allowing access to veterinary records etc, The welfare issues that have been addressed since, too many to name but just 2 weeks ago the new Whip Ban (down to 16... so still some way to go) and any Jockeys that contravene this face a ban.
       Still a ways to go but going in the right direction to my mind.
I would like to see a return to the old school breeding and a move away from failed finer flat racers being used. Interesting Red Rum comes up... He was a nice big jumper I like big bottomed horses :)  and more conformity in the course jumps, if others can get right I cant see why Sedgewick ( as a prime culprit) can't :(
   

Sorry for the delay lilacbabe. It was from the first day.

Theemx, I remember vividly when I was at HOYS a few years ago.  Watching one of the young showjumper classes where some fat snotty nosed kid was constantly whipping her poor horse.  She got such a booing and mouthing off from the audience it was amazing, she stormed out of the ring with a very red face.  As with the dog competition world there are the good and bad in horse competitions as well.  One way that they used to make a horse pull his feet up as he goes over the jump was to tie an end of the pole to a pully and a person would stand on the ground, tug the rope so that the pole would knock the horse's feet - next time the horse went over it made sure to get extra hight and tuck the feet well up. Speaking of psychotic kids riding - one place I used to go would just stick 20 kids on 20 ponies and let them gallop all round the school! This was a "warm-up" apparently.  One kid also had a poor pony with every contraption under the sun attached to it - we called it Gadget Pony.  If a kid can't ride in the most basic of tack then as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be riding.
I'm not keen on horse racing and it is very hipocrytical of the Beeb to show it.  To be perfectly frank I have yet to see a thoroughbred, of racing parentage, with problem free feet.  I have seen far more problems associated with racing than dog showing - but of course there is more money in horse racing and that is the crux of the matter ;-)

i do really think there are different sides, i worked on a yard and we held pony club there and believe me if we saw anything like that they would have been told to dismount and leave the manege.
with regards to flat racing they are most definately broken in far too young its like asking a giant breed to do the olympics.
And the grand national, the horses do enjoy it  however i do think it is way too far to ask a 4 and a half mile gallop and 30 jumps.
i would prefer to see at most 3 and a half miles and fewer jumps.
I used to compete in 1 and 2 day horse trials and you wouldnt believe the amount of work to get to that fitness never mind what they need for a 4 and a half mile gallop wih 30 jumps.

I'd like to see the whip banned full stop - it disgusts me. Everything about whips disgusts me - from the manufacturing and blatant marketing of pretty pink ones for little girls - they are designed to cause an animal pain ffs!!

yeah, I have seen them asked to leave too, but then the public don't see what goes on behind closed stable doors afterwards :(

Some people are unsporting, cruel and spiteful. Changing rules won't change their personalities.

It does though. In the horse world there is a perception that whipping horses is acceptable... why is that? If whips weren't allowed in racing or in show jumping then it wouldn't be seen as acceptable. Sad fact is that children are introduced to hitting horses at a very early age, when taught to ride on bored, sour horses in some riding schools and encouraged to hit it and make it go.

I was responding to your comment about 'not seeing what happens behind the stable door'. If a person is going to punish their horse in private, the banning of whips in competition won't make any difference.

I agree Carla, I think the whip should not be allowed. I was lucky enough to be taught to ride by a great horseman, (not that I am great!) but I was taught to use my voice, a light touch and a shift in balance, and never needing to hit a horse at all. Just about every time I've been to a riding school you see kids thumping and kicking the horses and yanking their mouths around! I agree if the whip wasn't allowed in racing and show jumping it would help to change attitudes.

> I was responding to your comment about 'not seeing what happens behind the stable door'. If a person is going to punish their horse in private, the banning of whips in competition won't make any difference.

I think it is always worth taking a stand as to what is acceptable practice. Equally you could say there is no point in saying you should not hit a dog either because of course someone can always do so behind closed doors. But if the general attitude is that hitting is not acceptable it does make a difference I think.

Trouble is i think you see this sort of thing in most animal sports, I can't bear to see dogs hauled out of the agility ring by its collar or scruff on its hindlegs and you dread to think what will happen to the poor dog later on. Competition brings out the worst in some people.
WHen i was younger i had one riding instructor that was very heavy handed and was constantly telling me to whip the horse when it wasn't going right, and so its not surprising youngsters are being brought up to do it, they may not have been taught any differently.

I think. Jeangenie. you have put it very well and I agree with you totally. I couldn't have put it better.
Those Steeplechasers are as fit as possible and bred for that purpose and if they didn't want to run or jump they damn well wouldn't. Try making a horse do something it don't want to. Its near impossible!! same as with 3 day eventers. they do it because they are happy to. If they aren't they won't do it.
Like anyone I don't like to see a horse injured or die but no-one knows when their time is up and I would rather see a horse well fed and cared for, racing, than one neglected in a field because its ickle owner can't be botherd to go out in bad weathe to check its alright. Neglected horses & ponies are a far to common a sight.

You really think you can't make a horse do something it doesn't want to? What about loading horses who are frightened of trailers? Yes, of course you can, given the right training, conditioning or even the wrong methods - look at how they swim young cobs across the river at Appleby - they drowned one recently too!
Saying that they only do it because they love it is a cop out - sorry. They do it because they don't know anything else. They sure as heck wouldn't choose to run until they fall over and die.