Dextersmom,

It would seem the show world has had a narrow and lucky escape then.

There is more vitriol in any one of your posts than I have encountered in 10 years of showing.   I don't show very often, but when I do my dogs are placed often enough and well enough that I should be the subject of much malice and back biting. 

It hasn't happened.

Whether that is because of the lack of malice in other exhibitors or a reflection of my treatment of them I am unsure.  But I always take the view that you can't expect to be treated well if you treat others badly and it does seem to be the case ;)

Regarding PDE

The point about it is that Ms Harrison decided to ditch the objective, balanced, scientific approach of the Documentary programme for the subjective emotional and frankly biased approach of a Docu-Drama.  In her own words it made more of an impact.  

It is no surprise therefore that caring, health testing breeders wouldn't want to be involved in any other programme associated with either Ms Harrison or Passionate productions.

>The breeders of the type of GSD seen in the breeds homeland haven't suddenly started to want breed surveys, compulsory health testing since PDE, the senior breed clubs(GSD League & BAGSD) have been wanting this for over 20 years.

I know that; and hopefully recent developments might put some weight behind them getting it. 

>however the clubs whose members breed to the breed standard of the 1950s(the one that had the notorious "noted suspicious of strangers added to cover up the poor temperaments of that era)continually vote against any such proposals as their members do not want any health assessments nor impartial assessments of their dogs again the current breed standard nor their working abilities, they are also the ones wanting to split from the GSD & call their dogs "Alsatians" & bring back the breed standard of the 1950s.

I know that too, but those that breed true to British lines have got to be in a minority now MM.  There are those that mix the lines but the West German Show lined dog is predominately the most common in the UK. 

dextersmom,

The only pure vitriol on this forum seems to come from you. Please don't make empty assertions about forumites love for their pets. I'm sure you are capable of debating points in a less emotional way.

If you read back you would see that many here find some value in what was said in PDE. However, it was overly one-sided in that there was no acknowledgement at all of the good work being done by many breeders. This omission was seemingly knowing and deliberate, to enhance the impact of the programme.

Sure, there are bad apples in the world of dog showing and of dog breeding, just as there are dodgy producers and commissioners at the BBC; it is just too easy to tar all with the same brush.

The shame is the programme might have had a lot more support if it had been made in a more balanced manner, giving some credit where due, after all it was meant to be a documentary not a polemic.

Of course, the one thing we cannot know (and she will not be able to admit it if true) is that JH was pushed by her commissioning editor at the BBC to hype up the bad news element. Bad news invariably sells much better than good and every producer knows that every commissioning editor wants the ratings and the headlines garnered by a contentious programme.

In my view, JH does seem to be genuinely interested in dogs and perhaps started out with a different programme brief. It is possible to be factually correct but misleading at the same time and that has allowed many a programme maker to get away with blue murder. As another poster said, some truth is not the same as the whole truth. To be frank, so long as the results are not open to legal action no TV commissioner cares that much about the "truth", whatever they might say.

Nobody likes to be "played" and I'm rather afraid that this is how many dog breeders feel about the PDE programme and the way it was made.

Dear Dextersmom

> He does not need to win rosettes to earn my adoration, he does not have to be the envy of other breeders to gain my affection. He does not have to be talented enough to be cast as the leading dog in Annie either. No all he has to do is be him - a big buffalo boxer

My big old boxers have a pretty good old life, dont go to shows, have healthy hearts, I've never seen a case of epilepsy ....but I'm a dog breeder, do I squeak in as an acceptable owner or are the two mutually exclusive?

I suppose you had to get your boxer from somewhere.

Dextersmom.
I've been waiting with baited breath to hear your positive contribution to this debate. I've been waiting to find out what is your extensive experience of the dog world in general and have ignored your sweeping generalisations and wildly inaccurate accusations.
I'm still waiting for a reason why you should be taken seriously.

As an (above average intelligence)  dog owner since 1961, exhibitor since the '70s, breeder, committee member, club secretary, breed notes contributor, newsletter editor, breed health coordinator and championship show judge your negative attitude saddens me.

> I wonder Ms Harrison - what you think of the work being done on EBVs in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels by Sarah Blott?
> The team at the AHT seem very positive about it.

I think it's a terrific endeavour, it's great that the KC is funding it and I applaud all those who are contributing data to it. Now all that's needed is for more of the top cavalier breeders to submit DNA and MRI scans of their dogs.

Jemima

Can you tell me more about the test that can distinguish between stone-formers and non stone-formers?

Jemima

Hi ms harrison,
I do breed and show dogs, and must admit I didn't like your last program as I feel it was unbalanced in its view point.  However I can probably understand that the post production team and bbc cut parts to show a more shock factor version.  I am curious about the new program through.  Have they allowed you more time to show both sides of the argument especially in respect to breeds such as the GSD and the fact even they have wished to split to a germanic type and an english type?  Also can we be nosey and ask what breeds will be featured?  If you can tell us.  Dalmations are in it for a guess.  I am personally not against your work as I see it like you are trying to change the world for the better from your own personal stand point, something which we are all trying to do for our breeds. We all just have different ways to go about it.

General bit to everyone
When it comes to the GP and buying dogs.  The ones who we what to buy from us ARE the ones that will have reseached breed and would understand any health issues within the breed they like.  I have had one positive thing come out of the program and that is I dont get as many idiots contacting me who haven't got a clue about dogs in general.
The only thing that worries me now is the number of non kc reg pups which have come from dogs that have been endorsed because they weren't suitable, crosses from none tested stock and puppy farms.  I personally these are a bigger problem than all the pedigree issues combined.

Emma

>Can you tell me more about the test that can distinguish between stone-formers and non stone-formers?

Urine tests. If they're not forming crystals they can't make stones.

well said dill
why is this person allowed to carry on posting  insulting remarks
and others are getting edited
she sure has a very short sighted view of show people and dogs
everyone i know shows for pleasure and fun
my dogs do not need to prove anything
they are my pets first and anything else is a bonus

> Urine tests. If they're not forming crystals they can't make stones.

And if you breed from non-stone formers it reduces the incidence of stone-forming puppies? I'd be interested in seeing the data on that if available.

Jemima

>And if you breed from non-stone formers it reduces the incidence of stone-forming puppies?

I don't know if anyone's collated any data on that. It would certainly be an interesting and useful study to embark on. I'll suggest it at the next meeting I attend.

Ms Harrison, as a member of the viewing public and pedigree dog owner (who has at times found themselves in a show ring), I'm interested in how committed you truly are in showing a overall view of the situation?  And if this is indeed your intention, how do you plan to reassure pedigree breeders that this will be carried out?  Because having compromised your integrity once, the temptation may be great to do so again.

Edited to say that my original answer re: the poll was Undecided - after having read the publicity comments I would change that to a No.

> I think it's a terrific endeavour, it's great that the KC is funding it and I applaud all those who are contributing data to it. Now all that's needed is for more of the top cavalier breeders to submit DNA and MRI scans of their dogs

I do think that your programme forced many Cav breeders to choose to join us or be cut adrift on their own little island...and I'm happy to say that they are joining us in droves but
....if I choose to breed a litter from two A scanned parents ( both rescanned over 5 years - very rare) with a very low COI I will struggle to find enough suitable homes because - to the general public my breed is fatally flawed.

Jemima (if I may call you that) please give some guidance to the G P on how to locate just such a pup, not because I need the money but because I genuinely want to find a way to work with Sarah and Tom at AHT to save this adorable breed. No point in EBVs when the resultant pups are not wanted.
People want pups, people will source pups...please use your programme to help them locate the healthiest pups.

I have a very 'important' bitch, she's from a SM clear cluster of dogs, she is clear, she produces clear and she has an excellent heart but I cant ensure that she will only have one bitch - just for me - and I'm not prepared to compromise on the quality of the owners of her pups.

> if I choose to breed a litter from two A scanned parents ( both rescanned over 5 years - very rare) with a very low COI I will struggle to find enough suitable homes because - to the general public my breed is fatally flawed.

> Jemima (if I may call you that) please give some guidance to the G P on how to locate just such a pup, not because I need the money but because I genuinely want to find a way to work with Sarah and Tom at AHT to save this adorable breed. No point in EBVs when the resultant pups are not wanted.
> People want pups, people will source pups...please use your programme to help them locate the healthiest pups.
>
> I have a very 'important' bitch, she's from a SM clear cluster of dogs, she is clear, she produces clear and she has an excellent heart but I cant ensure that she will only have one bitch - just for me - and I'm not prepared to compromise on the quality of the owners of her pups.

You've done all the health-tests, have a valuable dog genetically and you want the best homes for any pups you might produce..? In which case I don't think you'd have problems finding discerning, quality homes for them. Indeed, I've heard that breeders who can meet all the health-screening/protocol criteria are having no problems selling their cav pups; and that breeders who don't come up to same high standard are having a tougher time of it.

Carol Fowler, Margaret Carter and other cavalier health campaigners have been inundated with people who love the breed, desperate for guidance on where to buy a healthy cav pup. So much so that Carol has just put the puppy buyers' guide (below) together.  I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

Jemima

INFORMATION AND ADVICE FOR CAVALIER PUPPY BUYERS ON HEREDITARY HEALTH

*  Go to a Kennel Club registered breeder who can supply you with a ten generation pedigree for both parents of the litter of puppies.  One thing to look for is how many times a dog's name appears in the pedigree.  This will give you an idea of the level of inbreeding in the pedigree.

*  The pedigree information should include an inbreeding score (coefficient of inbreeding, COI) based on a ten generation pedigree.  Ideally this should not be higher than 6%.  The ages at which ancestors died and their cause of death would be very useful.  It will be a guide to your puppy's lifespan and chances of inheriting a genetic disease.

*  Ideally both parents should be seen and their temperaments observed and discussed with their owners. 

*  The age of both sire and dam should be at least two and a half years when mated, and after testing for MVD and SM.   Do not buy a puppy from parents who are younger than this.

*  Syringomyelia:  MRI certificates required for both parents.  Must be at least two and half years when tested and ideally both parents should be Grade A or equivalent (i.e, Skerritt certificate 'cerebellar herniation' only)   Ideally the certificate should also note that there is no ventricular dilation or central canal dilatation; however, few dogs fit this category.   MRI certificates and Grade A for grandparents is highly desirable, especially if done at a later age, say five years.  Note that using A x A parents will not guarantee that all of the puppies will be free of SM, but the risk will be reduced.  In addition, using A x A dogs is an ideal situation but because of the paucity of older SM free dogs and to avoid limiting the genetic pool (making other genetic diseases more likely) some breeders mate grade A dogs to asymptomatic older SM dogs.  (This system is being revised and it is hoped that there will be an official scheme similar to the hip and elbow dysplasia scheme)

*  Mitral Valve Disease:  Cardiologist's certificates required for both parents showing absence of heart murmur at two and a half years.  Certificates for grandparents showing absence of heart murmur at five years.  Ages at which other ancestors developed heart murmurs very desirable.  Note that heart testing should be done every 12 months.  Clear hearts in parents of at least two and a half years and grandparents of five years will not be a guarantee that your puppy will stay clear of MVD, but it will reduce the risk of early onset of the disease.

*  Eye Disease (multifocal retinal dysplasia, MRD):  Ophthalmologist's certificates required showing that both parents are clear.  Ideally the puppies should be tested by an ophthalmologist as well.

*  Dry Eye Curly Coat: This disease is unique to Cavaliers and is visible in young puppies.  These are normally euthanized. 

*  Ear Disease:  A progressive form of deafness has been identified in Cavaliers due to the degeneration of the hearing nerve.  Ask the breeder if any of the dogs in the puppy's pedigree have suffered from deafness.  Primary Secretory Otitis Media (PSOM), a condition similar to 'glue ear' in children, also occurs in Cavaliers.  CKCS ears drain poorly because of the narrow bullae and because their long soft palates block the eustachian tube.  Depending on the degree of severity, PSOM may cause a dog pain or hearing impairment.  Ask the breeder whether any of the puppy's near relatives or ancestors have suffered from this.  Note that MRI screening of sire and dam for SM would also reveal the presence of PSOM.

*  Episodic Falling Syndrome (Episodic Collapse, Hyperexplexia): a syndrome of exercise or excitement induced muscle stiffness then collapse.  The collapse can be brief or last a few minutes.  Affected dogs may show signs from three months of age.  Ask the breeder if there have been any cases of EF in the near relatives or ancestors of the puppies.

*  Pancreatic Disease:  CKCS also have a higher incidence of pancreatic disease (diabetes mellitus and/or pancreatic digestive enzyme deficiency).  Research into these disorders is ongoing.

Research is progressing towards the goal of providing all Cavaliers in the UK with an estimated breeding value (EBV) and eventually a genetic breeding value (geBV).

Please note that this information and advice will need to be modified in the light of new research. 

Carol Fowler
October 2008

dextersmom

you seem to be caught up in the showing of dogs when the discussion is about purebred dogs health - this effects ALL of us with dogs, even people like me - I don't breed & I don't show I simply own a pure-bred dog, yet I can see the negative impact that PDE has had and am worried about the knock-on effect. Good breeders must be fuming about PDE - it did nothing to steer the public towards ethical breeders that love thier dogs and do all they can to breed healthy dogs, such a missed opportunity :(

>the difference bewteen my Dexter and your show dogs is that he is loved for just being him. He does not need to win rosettes to earn my adoration, he does not have to be the envy of other breeders to gain my affection

I think you'll find that your dog is not loved anymore than the show dogs owned by those on this forum, just because they enjoy showing thier dogs does not make them less of an owner.

There is one Pap known to be behind the Modern Cavaliers

Exactly -and the Cavalier is a comparatively very new, created breed. Less than 100 years old. Who's talking about King Charles? The Cavalier was created for a money reward, for looks only. I think that's pretty unique for any breed. So what could possibly be wrong with tinkering a bit more with it to make it healthier? I don't see there is anything whatsoever to lose. I'm not saying it IS the answer, but how will anyone know if it isn't tried? By the responsible breeders, controlled, not the BYBs out to make a quick buck, of course.

I am a pleased as punch I gave up the show world long before PDE was commissioned because the difference bewteen my Dexter and your show dogs is that he is loved for just being him. He does not need to win rosettes to earn my adoration, he does not have to be the envy of other breeders to gain my affection.

So you're obviously  saying then that when you had show dogs, you didn't like them unless they won? That's a big difference between you and those of us here that DO show, then. We take the same beloved pet home with us after the show whether it won or not. Nothing's changed.

I think what she's saying is that her dog doesn't have to be a winner to get her affection, she loves him anyway but that is not the impression she got from others in the show world meaning that dogs had to be winners and the envy of other breeders to be seen off value, I think. 

That said, it's horse for courses, and whilst they may be some who view showing to be more about their ego and yes, I've met some, :p: there are others that do it for fun and enjoyment and love their dogs unconditionally.  

> . So what could possibly be wrong with tinkering a bit more with it to make it healthier? I don't see there is anything whatsoever to lose. I'm not saying it IS the answer, but how will anyone know if it isn't tried? By the responsible breeders, controlled, not the BYBs out to make a quick buck, of course.

Hm my concern about using Paps, Cockers etc is that they would need to start from scratch & not out crossing to another breed. The Pap is a smaller, more fragile breed that would reduce the size of the Cavalier(& there is some thinking that the reduction in size of the current Cavalier is one of the causes of the increase in the visible symptoms of SM) The actual physical structure of the breeds do not resemble the Cavalier-unlike the Kooikerhondje which is bigger that the Cavalier & is more like the Cavalier in construction.

Way too many variables in using multiple breeds to recreate the Cavalier

Jemima,

>Indeed, I've heard that breeders who can meet all the health-screening/protocol criteria are having no problems selling their cav pups; and that breeders who don't come up to same high standard are having a tougher time of it.
>

Potential puppy buyers would have to have a researcher working flat out to find them a pup which fulfils the criteria list -in its entirety .
Concerned breeders have cut back, proactive scanning stud dog owners are frightened to use their dogs for fear of being 'named and shamed' if their dog produces a case - even scanned clear dogs can produce them. Yes there are a handful of 'well used' scanned A dogs being used
(In fact one of these 'health campaigners' advised me and almost everyone who asked, to use one particular dog -very short sighted I thought) -  that in it's self is causing its own problems.
We all wish for the ideal, and many are advertising their pups as such, but I would imagine that the number of litters who fit this wish list would be very small indeed.
As eluded to, this may cause such a reduced gene pool as to make it unworkable IMO.

> Ideally both parents should be seen and their temperaments observed and discussed with their owners

Reputable, health testing breeders would be unlikely to own both (unrelated) parents and all info on potential studs would have to be taken on trust.

> (coefficient of inbreeding, COI) based on a ten generation pedigree; ideally this should not be higher than 6%.  

This may be at odds with EBVs when it comes on stream and higher percentages may be advised.

> Ideally the certificate should also note that there is no ventricular dilation or central canal dilatation; however, few dogs fit this category.

We should soon be switching to a panel decision of Pass or Fail and this may be temporary certificate.

> Note that heart testing should be done every 12 months

We are now advised to do 6 monthly over 5 years.

Perhaps you should re-think the use of the very divisive term 'cavalier health campaigners' when referring to a small handful of contributors to your programme. I like to think that there are many, many more of us making our own contribution, but not perhaps in front of the camera.

> So what could possibly be wrong with tinkering a bit more with it to make it healthier? I don't see there is anything whatsoever to lose. I'm not saying it IS the answer, but how will anyone know if it isn't tried? By the responsible breeders, controlled, not the BYBs

Or we could just let Drs Blott and Lewis - together with Rusbridge, Skerritt et al continue their work and not muddy the waters for now.

> I think you'll find that your dog is not loved anymore than the show dogs owned by those on this forum, just because they enjoy showing thier dogs does not make them less of an owner

Totally agree

> Perhaps you should re-think the use of the very divisive term 'cavalier health campaigners' when referring to a small handful of contributors to your programme. I like to think that there are many, many more of us making our own contribution, but not perhaps in front of the camera.

Yes, you're right. I used it as shorthand but it is divisive and it should be qualified - perhaps as "the more outspoken cavalier health campaigners".

I agree that the puppy buyers guide sets the bar very high - and yes, the size of the gene pool must be considered. The breeding protocols do allow for breeding from older asymptomatic dogs for this reason. This puppy guide can only be interim - the AHT's EBVs will be up and running soon, hopefully.

I have to say I am quite pleased to hear that breeders have cut back and are thinking very carefully about any breeding. It makes sense, short-term, given the enormous challenges facing the breed. I would hope, however, that those that take every posssible step to reduce the risks are not beaten up should they produce SM. No comfort to the puppies, but the data is of tremendous use to the researchers. Also, the name and blame culture is not helpful when breeders really have done their best. The caveat is that I think it is reasonable to highlight breeders who are NOT doing the best by the dogs eg breeding untested dogs, often well below the minimum age advocated by the breeding guidelines for both SM and MVD. Every single one of the current 12 top cavalier stud dogs was first used below 2.5yrs (in fact 10 of them before they were a year old). This is in flagrant disregard of the MVD/SM breeding guidelines endorsed by the Club.

Love your response freelancer!

Karen ;)

>the name and blame culture is not helpful when breeders really have done their best.

Yes, that's exactly what everyone was saying after the first programme. The general public was left with the impression that all breeders of KC registered dogs were the devil incarnate. If only the programme had highlighted the health testing that many breeders are doing, and have been doing for years before the programme, to minimise any risk to their puppies, how much more helpful it would have been.

Can we be sure that this will be addressed, loudly and clearly and with no possible room for misunderstanding, in the follow-up?

> the name and blame culture is not helpful when breeders really have done their best

So why did PDE insinuate that no show breeders were concerned about health issues.

Jeangenie,

Quite!

I doubt you will be able to extract a clear guarantee as to the content and balance of the next programme. No producer in their right mind would give it and that is because the programme has to be signed off by the relevant commissioning editor prior to broadcast. They and they alone have the final word over content etc.. The producer must play ball if they want to get paid. The BBC will want ratings and press, that can only be guaranteed by more contention.

What they may actually do is reversion the last programme and update to show work in progress, however, this will most likely give the impression to the average viewer that the good work is a result of the intervention of JH and the BBC.

>this will most likely give the impression to the average viewer that the good work is a result of the intervention of JH and the BBC.

That would, however, be misinformation and contrary to the BBC's mission statement (for which it receives the licence fee) to Educate. This would leave the corporation open to yet more legal action at a time when it's skating on very thin ice regarding the licence fee.

>I have to say I am quite pleased to hear that breeders have cut back and are thinking very carefully about any breeding.

I think you'll find that it's only the reputable breeders that have cut back. The puppy farmers and BYBs are carrying breeding from their untested pet dogs because of the over-riding impression given that it's only show dogs that are affected. This means that the known healthy genes are being restricted and the unknown gaining a greater proportion of the gene pool; this is not an advancement.

I think you'll find that it's only the reputable breeders that have cut back. The puppy farmers and BYBs are carrying breeding from their untested pet dogs because of the over-riding impression given that it's only show dogs that are affected

That is how I see the trend is going too.

As I said earlier, I think the programme actaully did more harm than good as it didn't point out the correct way of going about getting a puppy that is healthy.

I think the programme actaully did more harm than good as it didn't point out the correct way of going about getting a puppy that is healthy

The effect of the programme was to leave prospective purchasers with the distinct impression that it was far better to buy from a "just one litter" breeder who wouldn't know a health test if they fell over it, had no idea of the dogs behind either parent and were in no position to offer any help or advice to new owners. Even better, to avoid in-breeding, they should buy a (designer) crossbreed with all that "hybrid vigour".

Exhibitors were an easy target - a cohesive group, easily found and easily painted black! Had the programme focussed more on the dangers of breeding without background knowledge, of breeding without doing health tests, of breeding without having adequate facilities, it would have had much more relevance and painted a truer picture.

And - let's not forget - the problems of buying a dog without doing as much research as possible.

Ditto every word Tooolz..

Although trying my hardest to be as open minded as possible I am finding those involved in this PDE are appearing more to be on a further away planet than I first thought. 

Over the holidays I had a couple interesting conversations with puppy enquires. One couple mentioned the show and they said, whilst initially finding the content alarming they could see bias and one sideiness.   I know these people will possible be in the minority but for me it was a welcomed discussion.  Like you I had no puppies to sell. I had one litter in 2008,  I kept a puppy who is winning well already and my freind has another puppy.   3 puppies I sold in 2008 went to people that had all had my breed previously and all came through our breed club as they had done previously.

I have had between 7-10 enquires over the Xmas period and give the same usual advise I have given since they day I got involved in dogs. No others mentioned " the PDE"..

Jemima,

> I have to say I am quite pleased to hear that breeders have cut back and are thinking very carefully about any breeding.

Please ....You're doing it again!!
I said "Concerned breeders have cut back, proactive scanning stud dog owners are frightened to use their dogs"

The others dont give a damn...
the fact that your programme was swiftly followed by a global financial crisis is the only reason puppy farmers are cutting back........ but that is coincidence..... not your effect. The moment improvement in the economy is seen these people will be back selling their " we breed from pets not sick show dogs".

tottally agree
most people i know have decided to postpone any planned litters
for another year
but the BYB and puppy farmers will just carry on with their designer mutts

Jemima,

Can you remind us all exactly who Carol Fowler is? I know some of us know but many on here might not.

Also what do you think of her campaign covering all breeds calling for legal reforms to dog breeding, as featured on Pets Parliament?

http://www.petparliament.com/viewarticle.php?sid=144&aid=94&npage=1

> "people having an intelligence quotient of between 50 and 70 and are able to work under supervision."

please be assured that my IQ is considerably higher that this and i am perfectly able to work without supervision, as i assure you can every other poster on this forum.

we all also find it possible to form coherent and reasonable arguments without sinking to playground slaggings and snide remarks.

> But your collective inability to grasp basic concepts of genetics, single gene disorders, complex gene disorders

please be assured that the majority of posters have more than a basic grasp of genetics, many have in fact studied the subject to quite a level.

> your petulant hatred of Jemima Harrison

i disagree with your characterisation of our distress as petulant but then you are of course entitled to your own opinion. neither would i agree with your description of posters hating jemima- certainly i do not, i reserve such strong feeling for persons of more import to me.

> How come if the first film missed out so much good work being done by breeders i.e. no doubt by your good selves would you want to hide that from the viewing public? Surely you should be welcoming another opportunity to promote all your best efforts.

dextersmom posters on this forum do not wish to participate in anything to do with Passionate Productions because they believe the work of this company to be deeply flawed and biased. we also believe that they provided a misrepresentative idea of the work of pedigree breeders and a twisted interpretation of peoples comments.

> Perhaps you decline to co-operate because really when put to the test your good work does in fact not amount to very much at all.

dear, do you have the foggiest notion what breeders on this forum do to try and give their dogs the best breeding and lives possible? because it seems not. what exactly would you like to see breeders doing? tell us and we will see if the breeders here do so.

Astarte hon,

This 'person' seems to have departed - but perhaps we should understand the temptation for him/her to express sentiments online,

that would have one's ASS SUED OFF , if said to our face and in front of witnesses :-)

lol, i did assume they would have 'hit and run' but i couldn't help the urge to reply.

Astarte, totally agree with you, and also many of the other sensible comments.  People seem to forget that not everyone on this forum are breeders, or show their dogs.  From what I gather, with my limited intelligence, the VAST majority of this forum have a far better grasp of the concept of genetics than I think they even understand.  Genetics is so much more than a sequence of numbers.  It's beyond what happens in a petri dish or lab.  In the very best breeders, it is almost an innate ability.

Thing is if you don't it uses up thread space, once over the hundred marker the padlock looms..which is a shame when a genuinely interesting (and influential) debate takes place especially as Jemima does not post on many other forums, and not all Breeders on this forum have the luxury of being able to ,log in daily, so missing out on their vital say.

One point I would like to add is that there have been "Dalmatian type" spotted dogs around since the time of the Egyptian civilization. (Hieroglyphic evidence was found in the Giza pyramids and the Vallys of Kings and Queens.) Has anyone thought that if we bred from patched Dalmatians the Dalmatian or spotted dog would cease to exist. The dog would resemble a Pointer or patched "gun dog type." Imagine if all breeds were told to give up on their dogs fundamental appearance.

Jeangenie, you have single handedly made some valid points about our breed. Time after time you have identified "holes" in the research sited by the producers of the proposed BBC programme which seem to have fallen on deaf ears. The producers obviously have no intention of listening to balanced arguments and it would appear, at least in terms of Dalmatians that the content of the programme has already been decided upon. I would suggest that no-one else who breeds, shows or has an interest in Dalmatians engage these individuals in conversation. They are obviously going to alter, edit and contort what is being said to suit their own tenuous arguments.

We will have to grin and bear the contents of the programme and do the only thing that we can and write to the BBC and complain. After all, Dog breeders are license payers too.
Dallydog1  

One aspect that no-one has touched on is typical mental and behavioural traits of breeds.

For me the whole point of pedigree breeds is that to a large extent the characteristics are predictable, especially the mental ones.

For some people any dog is acceptable and they could happily own any breed or type or non breed, a dog is a dog is a dog.

For others it is not like that at all.

There are definitely some breeds I just could not live with,a and would prefer a different species of animal than own one.

For me one Mans meat is another mans poison.

When considering crossbreeding you are introducing possibly totally alien character and behaviour traits.

My breed is often mistaken for Huskies by the general Public.

I had a foster dog last year,a  bitch misidentified by Battersea as an Elkhound, who turned out by her looks to be a Husky cross, probably with Elkhound.  she did have some Elkhound/typical Spitz traits, but she was nowhere near the character and temperament of my breed, she was far more wired and energetic and also far needier of companionship, in her new home with just one canine companion she became very over attached to her new owner suffering acute separation anxiety, nothing like a typical Elkhound at all, but quite typical from what a Siberian in rescue might exhibit.  Her new owner very nearly gave up on her.  On the other hand the Elkhound rescues I helped with that came totally unsocialised having lived as a pack adapted far better, even though initially they were comatose cardboard cut outs...

Hi All

I haven't posted here for ages, so long in fact,that I have had to re-join as my email etc is all different now!  I have read this debate with interest and am, like most on here, disappointed at the way Passionate Productions chose to present their findings as so much good could have been done by showing a balanced view.  We all know things are not perfect, but at least there are efforts being made to improve things.  It is interesting that discussion about "in-breeding" has been raised a lot by and through the programme.  My OH is German and was very disappointed by the English version of the Dahshund.  He compared the breed to that in his native land and found that, generally, here, the variety we keep has lost its boldness and working ability and the showring isn't interested whether or not it can do its job.  In order to get back to what he feels is a "true" type and to improve the working ability, we imported German lines and used them to improve the dual purpose ability of the dogs.  I believe the production company is turning its attention to the weighing of miniature dachshunds in its next programme.  I hope it considers the reasons they are weighed - i believe the ceasing of weighing of miniature dachshunds would be a disaster.  The breed already is too heavy and toolow to ground for most of them to be able to do the job they are meant to do.  If weighing stops and nothing is put in to replace it, the breeds would eventually all morph into bigger and bigger dachshunds until we only have one size. 

In Germany, the dogs are measured at 18 months around the girth of the chest to categorise them as Kaninnchen (rabbit size), Zwerg (miniature / dwarf size) and Normal (standard size).  Their size determines the type of quarry they are worked on and is important in allowing free movement in an out of holes and in making sure they are fit for purpose.  In England, for reasons I am not clear about, they only have 2 sizes and they weigh, rather than measure miniature dachshunds.  It is important to keep the differentiation as the breed was bred for a sepcific purpose which will be all but lost if the size goes up and up.  We have 8 dogs at present and only 2 of them are anywhere near the 11lbs (5kg) weight limit.  I have been showing for around 12 years and have never known a dog be denied food or water in order to be able to show.  Judges do not place thin or undernourished exhibits and most exhibitors would have something to say if they saw that practice.  It is true to say that some dogs are not fed until after judging (my own included) as they are more likely to show better and be more keen if they are looking forward to tit-bits!  Therefore, I am hoping that the new programme does not lead us down a path that wold be the death knell for the working stature of our breed. 

Phew - that turned into a long post over Sunday morning coffee!

Jemima I have eight A bitches and 3 A dogs (2 bitches are now past breeding age) and all are of course related, all heart and eye tested  My friend has a similar number.  I can assure you it is not easy to sell pups.  As for Ms Fowler's "Guide to buying a puppy" how many would be pet owners would even know what to do with a 10 generation pedigree to start with always assuming that one has A3 paper and a printer capable of printing said pedigree.  She makes very sweeping statements as if they were fact when researchers do not know the true incidence of SM she can have even less idea as no -one would willingly give her any information.  I amongst many are fed up with the witchhunt that PDE created based on the opinion of an unqualified person's opinion of a scan she purports to have seen. I seriously doubt that I shall ever have another litter

Could I mention that in Pedigree ,there will always be the same names appearing for no other reason than that the Cavalier was popular .

To Timsar we do know now how many Cavaliers are suffering from SM .

In the 2007 Autumn SM News- Letter it was mentioned by the Authors ,that 408 SM Cavaliers MRI Scanned ,were confirmed cases ,whether this would be for Cavaliers World Wide , I don't know ,but if for Britain ,that would be roughly just over 1 %

I really have come to the conclusion ,that because SM is not confined to the Cavalier Breed ,and is in other Breeds as well ,do the Neurologists have a clue about what is happening to be causing the Disease .

Also it has been discovered that around 20%-30% Environmental Factors are involved with the SM Gene or Genes ,how can any Cavalier Breeder be expected to know which Environmental Factor is linked to which SM Gene

The Witch- Hunting has been going on in the Cavalier Breed since it first appeared,by those whose aim it seems to be to get rid of the Cavalier Breed

There have been nothing but Exaggerated Claims by folk who no nothing about the problem.

In-fact I was even told by a Member of the UK CKCS Health Committee ,that if the SM Cavalier Figures were NOT EXAGGERATED ,then no Cavalier Breeder would carry out any MRI Scanning.

Bet Hargreaves

Could I mention Carol Fowler's Information and Advice For Cavalier Puppy on Hereditary Health.

1
Has she ever written out a 10 Cavalier Generation Pedigree .

I have written out 5 Generation Cavalier Pedigrees for around 20 years,would never tackle a 10 Generation .

By the time the 5th Generation is reached ,it's quite difficult to make the names legible .

In .case some-body comes back at me and says Computers could do this, not every Cavalier Breeder will have a Computer!!!

To buy a 10 Generation Pedigree from the Kennel Club would be very Expensive.
2
Carol Fowler's mention of curtailing the use of Cavalier Stud Dogs to only 12 litters.

I have collected the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers for many years, many Cavalier Stud Dogs have lived to a normal old age 12 years upwards.

Those Stud Cavaliers have had many ,many Off-Springs who have also lived to a normal old age .

Have the Stud Cavalier  Good Genes to be lost by Resticting him to only allowing 12 Litters from him.

Finally she mentions that a MRI Certificate be being shown to a Cavalier Puppy buyer .

What type of MRI Certificate A Mini MRI Certificate or a Full Body MRI Scan Certificate ,the Mini MRI Certificate only gives Superficial Information about whether a Cavalier has Syringomyelia or not?

Bet Hargreaves

I don't understand why anyone would want to be in the next program. The unbalanced and down right negative anti views of the last TV program should prove it to anyone. But thats the kind of thing that makes good TV

As for the points make about the Dalmatians, they are very much the views of an inexperienced breeder!

A strange thing really. Generally speaking there is nothing more inbred
than the local estate mongrel. Roaming dog impregnates roaming bitchies
Owner gives puppies away down the road and at first season same dog mates all his daughters!! Yet, for some reason people think mongrels are less inbred than pedigree dogs.

But lets not let facts get in the road of an unbalanced journalism!!!!

Could I ask this question about the MRI Scanning of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels for Syringomyelia .

Has any Research ever been carried out to discover if there lasting effects for Cavaliers from this Procedure ?

Also there have been Reports of a Number of Cavaliers Whelping Deformed Puppies ,could this be due to MRI Scanning .

Has any Research been done on this to find out if it could be being Linked to MRI Scanning?

Bet Hargreaves

To my knowledge of MRI, it is generally a safe procedure as there is no radiation involved as there is in radiography or CT scans.
However to answer your question i have no idea if research has been carried out into lasting effects, but we use a MRI scanner at work twice a week, and we have not heard of any side effects from the MRI itself.