I believe in freedom of choice .

FOR THE DOG.

Can I keep my tail please mum?

Um my baby boy wasnt circumsised!!! One was but that was for medical reasons.

The people that buy a pup with no tail but with papers can not show there dog can they?

> The people that buy a pup with no tail but with papers can not show there dog can they?

They can show if no public admission fees are charged at the show.

I have a hairy bmd and a newfi who require regular grooming. I had to convince my breeder that I was worthy of taking one of her puppies. It is a shame that some breeders are not to particular who they sell their pups too :( So no fly strike here.
I believe that pups should be born with their physical characteristics in tact. Besides from working purposes, certain breeds are docked for aesthetics and showing purposes. My boys are very attached to their tails as I assume lots of other breeds would be :) Maybe I should trim my newfis jowles to stop him slobbering so much!

I have to say i have a huge soft spot for the Rotti and prob always will. I do like them docked and it has taken a while for me to get used to them with a tail.

I have had it explained to me how the tail set is supposed to be and i have to say i am getting used to it and now enjoy seeing the Rotti with a tail and it wagging it around.
People seem to be more accepting of Rotti's now that they have a tail. Weird isn't it..
I can;t see how these breeds who were docked before should have a problem with them now, if they were born with tails and grown up with them then the dog would be used to it. Can't see how any dog who's got a tail would know any different as how to deal with a tail as they wouldn't of experienced a docked one
Am i making sense?? Hope this is coming across the way i'm thinking it.

i grow up with a dobi cross she had her tail and i like dobies with tails, but when 9 yrs ago i was looking for a rottie i wanted one with a tail but could not find one anywhere so i have become used to seeing them without tails and for a couple of years wasnt sure if i would want one with a tail but after much research of small dogs can not find anything that matches the rott so i bought a new pup with tail and would never buy a docked rottie as i want to show and i dont agree with people taking pups to Ireland to have them docked imo thats wrong we have a new law and everybody should stick with it.

i do not like the look of the boxer with a tail yet but im sure i will get used to it.

I believe in freedom of choice .

FOR THE DOG.

Can I keep my tail please mum?

Since when has any domesticated dog had any freedom of choice??

What i don't understand is why do working springers spaniels tend to have a 3/4 docked (or is os 2/3rds not sure, quite long anyway) and yet show springers have a tiny stump? Surely if its to prevent tail damage then its the working springers that are more likely to suffer tail damage?
My springer has a full tail, he is a rescue and despite going into every bush and thick cover (as if he's working) he has never damaged his tail. Hes now 4 and a half. Infact he's probably cut his long ears more than his tail, so whould they have cut them off too?

> What i don't understand is why do working springers spaniels tend to have a 3/4 docked (or is os 2/3rds not sure, quite long anyway) and yet show springers have a tiny stump?

Because the longer dog is sufficient but if you are going to dock anyway why not do it to a length that suits the appearance of the dog best.

Just out of curiosity, do the peeps that think docking is barbaric also think the same of neutering?  After all it is removing parts of the animal that will have a permanent effect on behaviour (and occasionally appearance).

I believe in freedom of choice .

FOR THE DOG.

Can I keep my tail please mum?

Do you apply this to testicles and uterus too?

> Just out of curiosity, do the peeps that think docking is barbaric also think the same of neutering?  After all it is removing parts of the animal that will have a permanent effect on behaviour (and occasionally appearance).

I don't see how docking a dog for purley cosmetic reasons is compareable to neutering???  My last dog was castrated because whenever he smelt a bitch on heat he was a nightmare - repeated escpape attempts (he even got run over), moaning the house down etc... castration got rid of his urges and left him a much happier, chilled-out dog that didn't feel the need to be constantly looking for the bitch he could smell. My sister had her bitch spayed due to a vaginal infection. In both of these cases the neutering was for the benefit of the dog. With cosmetic docking (not docked working dogs)what is the benefit to the dog?

I have 3 working Cockers, all of which are used for working. I have a full spectrum of tails - one is undocked, one has a correct longer working dock and one is docked too short, it's somewhere between a show and working dock (she's a rescue and I got her at 2 years old so no idea what idiot did it to her). Of the 3 I 100% prefer the correct working dock. I have to bandage my undocked boy's tail before every shoot or he gets it tangled up in the undergrowth and it invariably ends up bleeding. He is unstoppable when working, he bulldozes his way into the thickest cover and when unbandaged he did suffer a few (not too serious) injuries to the end of his tail but they were not getting a chance to heal properly as he kept bashing it on things when wagging or charging off into the bushes again on every walk and it was turning into a right pain for both of us so he is now bandaged to avoid it. I would far rather he had just been docked to begin with and I will not buy another undocked dog for working. However, I'm not a fan of dogs being docked for purely aesthetic reasons.

I was watching Sunday's Countryfile a couple of weekends ago.  They covered an article on farming a particular breed of cow.  To be honest I wasn't paying much attention until the farmer honed in on a 2 day old calf, saw it was a bull calf so turned it over there and then and 'clipped/clamped' its testicles.  It took a few seconds too, not like snipping a tail.  What?  No anti-clipping testicle ban?

I am not a supporter of docking dogs for just aesthetic reasons in the same way I am not a supporter of piercing babies earlobes.

> No anti-clipping testicle ban?

It would appear that if one is going to eat the animal then anything is permitted.

> OES were historically docked because of flystrike - sheep are docked for this same reason

But OES were historically only clipped the same time the sheep they worked and spent much of their time out with, were sheared.

That is not how OES are used now, (and IMHO nor could any ive seen in recent years be physically capable of it with the coats they now have) and so it does not apply.

Frankly anyone who docks an OES because they are not capable of preventing fly strike in an animal that lives with them and spends hours and hours in their company, is not fit to own a dog at all!

(And yes thats easy for me to say, i do have a dog whose fur is soft and wooly like most pet OES are, who needs bum area grooming on a daily basis or he will get the 'pooing through a sieve' and 'clingons' - i am sure this might be slightly more conveient for me if i clipped him bald and cut off his tail... but thats not why i got a fluffy coated tailed dog!)

I actually am not pro or anti docking - I can see for those dogs that actually do work, being docked is far less traumatic than trying to heal a damaged tail (which VERY often results in it being docked anyway in the end).

I am anti lopping anything off (be it hair, tails, reproductive organs, ears, claws, voice), merely for human convenience.

No animal should go through surgery that is not in the best interests of that animal. Including Spaying and neutering. Any procedure done purely for looks should be banned. 

> No animal should go through surgery that is not in the best interests of that animal.

Totally agree :-)  For some dogs, of course, this could include, docking, spaying or castrating.

Not all the docked dogs are 'incomers' from Ireland--working breeds that have been traditionally docked may continue to be docked in England, if the breeder is able to show that the dogs are likely to be worked and, of course, whether you can find a vet who will do this. The downside for many breeders and prospective owners is the restriction on showing docked dogs--they cannot be entered for show where the public is charged an entry fee, a major disincentive for those who aspire to Crufts.

My breed is a dual purpose breed and has been customarily docked. My own dog was legally docked after the ban and is one of the few in his breed without a tail. What I notice is that we are seeing some lovely dogs shown in this breed, but many with tails that don't quite match up to the rest of them. This probably has to do with the fact that if the tail wasn't part of conformation priorities (how could it be if you'd never seen the parents or previous generations with tails?), you were likely to get some surprises in every litter. My guess is that it will take time before this settles into tails that are nicely balanced as a norm.

I prefer my breed without tails, and I'm more interested in working my dog than showing him. If I thought docking was a huge trauma for a new puppy I'd never condone it under any circumstances, but I do think that there are practical reasons for docking certain breeds.

Having said that, I had to smile when he met a new (tailed) spaniel yesterday on a walk and as a variation from the normal boxing and chasing routines, he ran after him?her? at top speed gently holding his?her? tail in his mouth! Lord knows what the tail made of it all...

I have just finished reading this thread with such interest!!
I have had different opinions on both sides of the argument on docking dogs and my opinion is that for cosmetic purposes docking should be banned, however, if its needed, such as for a dog that needs it doing for working reasons, then i think this should be allowed. I have a docked breed of dog as i got him before the ban was introduced, and at first when i saw yorkies with tails, i thought it was odd, but now i have grown to the idea, i think they look really nice with a tail personally and should be this way for these breeds of dogs now for the show ring.
Not seen a rotty or a dobie with a long tail yet, has anyone got a picture... quite curious as to what these look like.
:)

We owned one pre ban way back in 1994, you can google a search on the image part or try one of these sites....
www.4rottweilers.com www.therottweilerconnection.org, i would post them on but i don't how to do it lol

>Not seen a rotty or a dobie with a long tail yet, has anyone got a picture...

Dobermann with tail and Rottweiler with tail. The KC breed standards also have examples - the tails are very, very variable as yet, but they'll improve and become more uniform.

I no its off my subject but how do you put the sites in like that,?? Its driving me crazy lol

I'm not sure that I'll ever get used to tails.  The tailed Dobe looks like a mongrel to me. :(

>how do you put the sites in like that,??

Put [url= then the full site name (including the http= bit), then ]
Put in the text you want to link with, then [ /url], all without any spaces.

It'd look like this:

[url= http://www.yazashrottweilers.co.uk/USERIMAGES/Rottweiler%20with%20tail.jpg ]Rottweiler with tail [/ url] but leave out the spaces! or it won't work.

>The KC breed standards also have examples

Even on there I think the ones that I've just looked at look horrid LOL. Am very glad I don't have a docked breed, will take a long time for it to settle and an aesthetically pleasing standard be achieved.

M.

Thankyou very much!!

Thank you for those links!!! They dont actually look as bad as i would expect and i think personally for both these breeds for those shallow people out there who dont understand the breed one little bit, it kind of sofens their look in a way, which might do it good in terms of people not hating them... if that makes sense... might bring their name up a bit, not sure if i am making sense, i personally like both these breeds, dont have a problem with either, they do suit the shorter tails, but dont look awful, think the dobie looks better with a tail than the rottie though!
:)

The breed standard examples are really horrid (I've seen even worse though - a dobermann with a tail curled like a pig! ) but there are much nicer ones even than those pics I found. The rott in the second link (the post explaining the linky-procedure) looks very acceptable IMO :-)

It's quite funny really when people claim that Dobermanns should be docked 'because that's how Louis Dobermann wanted them', when the modern breed looks so very different from the original! I doubt whether Herr Dobermann would even recognise them.

Have seen some nice Rottweilers with 'sabre' type tails, and I think they're one of the breeds that will get away with it better - but as soon as they curl in any of these breeds ... yuck!

Haven't seen a Boxer or a Dobermann with a tail I liked yet, but as they have been bred for years for a more upright tail set, this is no surprise really.

M.

Didnt see that other link, but i agree it looks better the tail downwards than upwards definatly!! Looks silly with it upwards in that other picture.

But then again, if they were originally bred and kept with long tails instead of previously docking them, would our perception of this breed change if docking became introduced... does that make sense? When i say perception i mean looks wise, not any of the other pros and cons just strictly in terms of the way it looks. :)

My friends friend has a boxer with a long tail, and the only problem with it is that it gets so excited and happy and it knocks everything over with it and smashs all sorts!! LOL Does look cute with a tail though... different but doesnt look awful

The tail set of a Rottweiler should be such that the tail hangs straight down when relaxed (the dog in the second pic still has a curl when relaxed) when on the move and excited it is acceptable for the tail to rise up and curl very slightly.  A tighter curl is undesirable.

I'm really pleased with my Rottie bitches tail as it does as it is meant to.  In the show ring you see all sorts because some breeders take the tail into consideration and some don't. 

I say keep the tail..

but

most english bulldogs who have a litter need to be cut open to get the puppies out... thats more shocking and disgusting i'd say, yet the breed continues to get larger heads, and shorter legs... etc... so buying a dog of any breed is based alot on whether we like the look of it... and for some people that means buying a dog that is changed unnaturally and contraversially...

> Not all the docked dogs are 'incomers' from Ireland

This was a response to a post by benson67, who was asking how a pet shop can sell legally docked Rotti's, I am well aware that some working breeds can still legally be docked in England.

Oi Miss M, whadda bout Astra's tail???? (Can't remember if you've seen her)
Nora's naturally short tail isnt too bad either :D

>Can't remember if you've seen her

Miss M me? LOL. No, haven't seen her (or that's the excuse I'm using anyway LOL. Don't think I have actually, saw you at Guildford but don't remember seeing you with one with an appendage. Probably hiding out of the rain!)

M.

I agree that the dobes especially look really mongrelly with their tails ans so many re very curly.

the rott picture is less nice than the ones I have seen which have been lower and more like Labrador tails and the Boxers I know with tails are like those on a Hamiltonstovare and with the sloping topline mostly held reasonably low and not curled over.

Ooooh Errrrrr you should have she went BPIB :)
Althou it was a tad bit wet so I'll let you off LOL

I had 4 of the nutters there that day - I was barmy!! LOL
and Sooooo wet but hey ho the wonderful world of showing dogs