What is interesting is that the dog that went BIS at the CKCS club show this year & last year's BOB @ Crufts are half brothers one allegedly has SM & the other is clinically clear ! This site has all the results from shows for the past 4/5 years complete with pedigree's makes interesting breeding especially as off the pedigree is the dog my two cavaliers have been linebred to !!!

sorry, had to add that the cav breeder using her dog at stud KNOWING he has the disease is like the bloke who slept with blokes on purpose without protection, knowing he had aids! she should be outlawed, i pity whoever used her dog or has a pup from him

> That was a comment on a dog that is long since dead from old age.

I see but I hope you are more aware of this following the programme.  Perhaps that was one point they could have made more of than they did.

a well known free dog site now has 'no interbreeding in our lines' for all of their cav adverts since the prog.

So presumably they would rather see an affected dog bred to a outcross affected dog rather than two more closely related clear dogs.

Don't start me on Ridgeback colour!!!!  Our standard calls for light wheaten to red wheaten :)

I see but I hope you are more aware of this following the programme.  Perhaps that was one point they could have made more of than they did.

When I say a long time ago I mean a very long time ago.  Not even in my current breed.  Before any proof had been provided that the problem is hereditary.  Something that still has not been fully proven in all cases.  He went on to produce puppies that never had the same problem so I believe his was not hereditary anyway.  I have tracked 3 generations of his offspring and none had the same issue.

Anyway we are getting a little off subject.

I'm with you Mandy, culling is so wrong for it's just a ridge not a health problem!

I have first hand experience of buying a puppy that has a  hereditary condition it has been a truely horriable experience which unfortunately is ongoing. My youngest has SRM (which effects a few breeds including Tollers, BMD etc) I bought him as show prospect after many trips to the vet from about 4 months old he was eventually diagonised I knew it all along but it took a while to convince my vet as she had never had a case before (she is now writing a paper on SRM) I am hoping this will help others in the future. Ike is now coming to the end of his second course of treatment and sadly the SRM is coming back, next week he is going in for another spinal tap and the vet now has two treatment options for us to consider both more intensive, one been chemo injections which is my prefered option at the moment but will see what happens next week.

Should I have put him down? Returned him to the breeder? No I would never do that he is the sweetest dog ever we adore him and I just would never ever part with him, he won't ever be a show dog he was always a pet first. Having see him go through what he has been he is my little soldier, I'm dreading next week and I'm really worried he will never shake off the SRM and I'm worried about the long terms effects of it. I'm sure he will be ok but it doesn't stop me worrying.

I would like to see health testing done in ALL breeds.

>Anyway we are getting a little off subject

Not really.  We were talking about the breeding practices specifically raised in the programme.  One of which was the showing of dogs following conformation changing operations. 

culling is heartless and wrong and that is my opinion ,if the pup is healthy then it as the right to live !! surely to be a breeder and love the dogs you breed from and it had all tests it done ,then a pup born the wrong colour or sex or no ridge or what ever that isnt standed as the right to LIVE !!!

to minnie mouse
why are you breeding if you do not show
what is the point?
is hobby breeding another name for cashing in on the pet market
most good breeders only breed if wanting a new pup to show or carry on their lines
one of the reasons so many people ,good breeders have pups left to sell is because far too many pet people think breeding is a hobby
its about time the KC addressed the so called hobby kennels , and puppy farmers

Hi Bertbeagle,

sorry to hear about your little soldier :(

i too am going through a very similar experience with my girl who was diagnosed with wobblers at 6 months old,  obviously she will never be shown or bred either though she is stunning, but i would never of dreamed of pts or returning her as unwanted, she is my very special baby and it is just sad to see these terrible conditions, it is heartbreaking, though she is doing great at present (you can read about her on my other post in the health section)

i wish your puppy a speedy recovery and try not to worry yourself to death (hard as it is)

i also have a rott with a white chest, (a disqualifying fault) should he have been culled too then? - it is all so very wrong!!!

Good luck bertbeagle with your boy :)

Along with many other members I watched the above last night and was appalled by the attitudes and ignorance of the breeders featured. I appreciate that many people feel the programme was biased but it did very well in educating 'Joe Public' about the problems and bad practices that are occuring within pedigree breeds.

The Kennel Club needs to 'pull its socks up' and deal with the issues raised last night. If they continue to turn a blind eye there will be no need for Crufts or breed standards because there will be nothing left to breed. The KC can't play god and those breeders that knowingly breed from stock diagnosed with genetic and ill health problems should be shot!!

Perhaps we've reached the stage now where breeding needs to be more regulated. If a puppy is diagnosed with a genetic condition the vet should be under legal obligation to report it to the KC who can strip the parents of their pedigree certificates thus preventing them from being shown and bred in the future. I have a Shar Pei that suffers from FSF/Hock Syndrome and sadly his breeder bred once again from his parents even though we told her of his situation and continues to show them at Crufts.

I geniunely feel last nights programme was educational and challenged the 'status quo' which is why 'some' breeders 'are up in arms' because for far too long they have been left to carry on regardless. The programme didn't accuse all breeders of being unethical and interbreeding their dogs. It did however remind the public that there is an ugly side to pedigree breeding and highlighted the sad situations that many pet owners have to live with as a result of breeders seeking to produce the 'ultimate' dog!

That's just my view - I'm sure many will disagree.

PS: I did want to add this to a previous thread but couldn't work out how to add it lol!

Can someone tell me how to re-open and edit the poll please :-)

> why are you breeding if you do not show
> what is the point?

I see the undercurrent of your post Monty, but to the untrained eye I would like to point out that there are still some breeds who *work* and are bred for a job not always for show!
   In my breed if I wasnt showing I could still be breeding for a blummin good lead dog/wheel dog etc etc....... There would be 'a point'.
would you agree?
*raises wry eyebrow* ;)

i agree with you
some do breed for work, same as some breed for show, no problems there
but i do not agree with pet people just breeding for the pet market
just look on some of these puppy sites
most are pet litters from pet breeders

> I geniunely feel last nights programme was educational and challenged the 'status quo' which is why 'some' breeders 'are up in arms' because for far too long they have been left to carry on regardless.

I have to admit this is what alot of people are thinking

> If a puppy is diagnosed with a genetic condition the vet should be under legal obligation to report it to the KC who can strip the parents of their pedigree certificates thus preventing them from being shown and bred in the future.

That sounds like a great idea, those who breed for health and improving the breed should not be put off by this.

I was interested a while ago in showing but I have now decided that the show world is not for me, if i encountered someone who culled puppies for "cosmetic" reasons I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue!

The majority of people I have heard discussing this programme are all of a similar opinion, that the breeders that are in arms about the programme have something to hide. That is not my opinion but those of people I have spoken to :-(

Welcome to the world of dog showing and breeding..... WHAT A FARCE in reality.....  We all have opinions on what 'should' happen but we know this is ignored..... the KC should be ashamed of themselves as should the breeders who churn puppies out on conveyor belts (5-6 litters per year) without health and responsibility.  The breed clubs should also be ashamed in putting up judges up who havent a clue and put their breeds into a downward spiral. 

Oh bugger me the breeders have 'served their time' so they can do as they please without anyone complaining....  YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have just watched the programme and didn't have a huge problem with it. 

there are lots of unethical people out there and it is good to expose some of them and the KC has been shown to be totally toothless and 'exposed' (for those who didn't already know) as not being an all seeing and all knowing guarantee of a healthy and good quality dog.  The sheer amounts of dogs they register each year - I think it was 250,000 he said - shows that it is no elite club. 

there were some horrible looking distorted caricatures of dogs on the programme but hopefully it might go a wee bit towards showing some people that they are not untouchable.  Although people on this board are up in arms about it, chances are it will be yesterdays news and have little impact on non-doggy people who go to buy a dog in the future.

> that the breeders that are in arms about the programme have something to hide.

What do you think that would be then?

I'm not sure if you mis-read my post but I stated that this was the opinion of the people I have spoken to...not my opinion :-)

You didn't ask they what they meant?

One thing I would be interested in is how easy it is to find homes for Ridgebacks.

A friend of mine had a litter of 14. I think 4 were ridgeless. She ended up having to keep them for weeks longer and virtually give them away in the end, because people wanting to buy a Ridgeback will NOT want one without a ridge.

Don't know what it is like elsewhere, but here Ridgebacks are more commonly seen than Labradors! Very overbred, many not selling.

some one define inter breeding ?

This thread is misnamed. INTERbreeding means mating together dogs of DIFFERENT breeds. INbreeding means mating together mother and son, father and daughter, brother and sister. LINEbreeding means mating related individuals that are not as close as inbreeding, for instance cousins. (Which even is allowed in humans.)

I have only ever seen 1 Ridgeback out here and it was stunning. I don't know enough about the breed to comment on the ridge/ridged situation with regards to health but I am still horrified to learn that for a "supposed" cosmetic reason puppies are culled....even more shocked that the code of ethics from the club recommended it :-(

Is the ridge as was described last night - actually detrimental to their health?

> Don't know what it is like elsewhere, but here Ridgebacks are more commonly seen than Labradors! Very overbred, many not selling.

Maybe not that bad here yet but I never, ever saw one outside the show ring until a year or so ago but have seen a smattering of them around here lately.

> You didn't ask they what they meant?

I didn't need to alot of people feel really angry about the programme, most reasons were that show people do breed for these deformities(sp) and have been allowed by the kc to do so in order to get the "perfect" dog (cosmetic perfect) and they feel that it has all been allowed to go on in secret in the show world. This is NOT my opinion, our boys came from a show breeder whom I have a very good relationship with and I have come across alot of people on this website who care deeply for the dogs they breed. I am by no means against any reputable breeder but I am also not defending the kennel club

You're right, Marianne, far too many RRs are being bred - and most by people who don't know what they are doing and do not have the best interests of the breed at heart.

Angels2 - the ridge is not detrimental to their health, my 5 are all ridged and healthy :)  However, the breed can be affected by a condition called dermoid sinus - they are born with it if they have it.  The clubs are funding research into this.  Some are claiming that ridgeless RRs don't suffer from this at all - but I've heard of ridgeless RRs with the condition (from someone I do trust) 

Very few breeders would cull ridgeless puppies - even though our code of ethics has suggested it.  However, they can be very difficult to home.  It's interesting, all these people up in arms about culling them, horror struck at the idea - yet they can be very difficult to place :(  That said, I've only ever had one and she has a super home, she was booked at 2 days old.  She probably would have been booked before then, but I wasn't expecting to get ridgeless.  Maybe after the television programme, they'll suddenly become popular!

> and they feel that it has all been allowed to go on in secret in the show world.

I don't disagree that people have bred to exaggeration in some breeds but it is hardly done in secret.  What is more public than a show ring :-)  There are obvious limitations to what the KC can do about this particular aspect in some breeds but they certainly do not just allow it or encourage it, for instance they have taken steps to amend standards where applicable to discourage these extremes.
Most exaggerations of course do not take an expert to see that they are detrimental to the dogs health and maybe the public should take some blame in their delight and support for some of these undesirable features.

> the ridge is not detrimental to their health, my 5 are all ridged and healthy :-)  However, the breed can be affected by a condition called dermoid sinus - they are born with it if they have it.  The clubs are funding research into this.  Some are claiming that ridgeless RRs don't suffer from this at all - but I've heard of ridgeless RRs with the condition (from someone I do trust) 
>

Thank-you for that info. They really are a stunning breed and I really hope that now it becomes easier for you reputable breeders to be able to home any ridgeless pups :-)

> Most exaggerations of course do not take an expert to see that they are detrimental to the dogs health and maybe the public should take some blame in their delight and support for some of these undesirable features.

I completely agree with you :-)

As I said it was not my opinion and in fact I did say alot on the defence of reputable breeders and the things I have learnt from  people on this forum :-)

and most by people who don't know what they are doing and do not have the best interests of the breed at heart.

Now this is what i find difficult to understand after watching the programme.  Who DOES have the best interests of the breed at heart.  Not talking about the RR here, but I still cannot get the image of the GSD's movement in the shows shown last night, or the GSD judge stating that the old working type GSD were incorrect and the GSD's in the ring (whose over exaggerated rear did make them look like a mutant) were correct.  If this is what the Breed Clubs and breed judges are promoting, are these really the peopl who have the best interests of the breed at heart?  To be fair, the vast majority of breeds are not so exaggerated that they cause health problems, but I hope the expose of these extremes, not only help those who claim to have the best interests of the breed at heart to take a long hard look at themselves, but also be a wake up call to all those more moderate breeds to look out in case they find themselves going down the same road.

I don't disagree that people have bred to exaggeration in some breeds but it is hardly done in secret.  What is more public than a show ring
But most members of the public don't attend dog shows.... myself included.  My own interest is in working dogs, so the show ring holds no interest at all.  I can honestly say I have NEVER seen a GSD like those being shown on the programme (apart from in photos).  The pets and working GSD's I know do not have the exaggerated rear of the show dogs, and although I have seen photos, have never seen the movement until last night. 

I still cannot get the image out of my mind.  I found that the single most disturbing thing... not the epileptic boxer, nor the CKC (although a close second was watching the CKC writhing about in pain, wondering what their so called loving owners were thinking about allowing it to suffer like that and not putting it out of it's misery). 

and maybe the public should take some blame in their delight and support for some of these undesirable features. do members of the public take delight and support these undesirably features... as I said, I have never seen a pet or working gsd that looks and moves like those being shown.

What is a pet breeder?
If I breed which I don't I would prefer my pups to go to pet homes than being stuck in a kennel.

>> But most members of the public don't attend dog shows.... myself included.

But anyone can so I am merely disputing this idea that these things are conducted in secret.
I wasn't particularly meaning the GSD though who, I agree, the public seem largely to prefer the "old fashioned" type they knew as children.  I was thinking more of the squashed noses, massive heads
and as much wrinkle as possible type of preference.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe most other "developed" european countries Kennel clubs have restrictions of what they will register.
The limits might not be great e.g. will register a puppy from not so great hips but at least there is some limitations and parents MUST be health tested.
I think it just shows how UK KC doesn't care(or cares about the MONEY), the fact the head person or who ever he was said oh if we put restrictions in place people will just keep breeding behind our back and not register.
Well at least if KC showed they actually care and promote good breeding practices,then people would hopefully realise it is some kind of guarantee if you buy KC registered pup where as at the moment anything can be registered so being KC registered doesn't really mean much!

Just as a comparison:

I know in my country of origin to get a affix you need to have a recommendation from your breed club AND you must have attended a basic course in Breeding AND you must sign to follow the rules KC sets. You then have to follow the regulations and restrictions different breeds have to be able to register your litters...

KC will not register any litters from not health tested parents and give different limitations on what needs to be tested/results.
They will also not register a litter if one of the parents is a known carrier of certain illnesses and they also set limitations on how many puppies will be registered for a dog. For example in my breed it is 50 puppies per dog, this way not a single dog can be used "too much" and the dog owners must really think who they use their dog on stud for not just every bitch offered.
Finnish KC is not even that stright compared to some others in the Europe!

To become a judge you must have been "active" in the breed for minimun of 10 years(and to get a recommendation of the breedclub) and shown you have acted for the benefit of the breed and breed club.
You must have been stewarding for minimum of 5 years too.
You must have also done the basic and follow up breeding course and you must have a prove you can see :) (the distace needed for driving licence)
Only then will you be able to take part to test that involves different breeds to your own and basics about movement, healthy build...
Only if you pass the test you will be able to start training to judge your own breed!

I think UK KC should really start looking into why they are there and what they are supposingly promoting...

my self and everyone i know who shows and breeds ,dogs live in the house as family
i don,t know anyone whose dogs live in kennels
you need to get your facts right

in 18 of showing i only bred one litter
as all my dogs live in as family,i only bred to keep couple pups to show
quite frankly most of the idiots that rang me wanted bitches to breed ,seems to be the trend today
friends have had the same thing
i endorsed my pups and it put people off because they wanted to breed
my pups went to good homes who wanted a family pet, not a breeding machine
as for keeping dogs in kennels, i know no one who does,
yet my neighbour ,s staffy is kept in a kennel and   has been used at stud by other idiotic so called pet breeders
why, because she thinks its easy money
if the kennel club got its act together, and insisted on licenses and testing for all dogs,
some of these poor bred pups won,t end up as breeding machines

loving owners were thinking about allowing it to suffer like that and not putting it out of it's misery). 

the prog said it was pts soon after the filming

>What is a pet breeder?

A pet breeder is one who simply mates his/her bitch to the most convenient dog, with no thought into the background of either parent, and churns out a random litter.

>If I breed which I don't I would prefer my pups to go to pet homes than being stuck in a kennel.

The vast majority of show dogs are also pet dogs, living in the home like any other dog. They just happen to accompany their owner to shows at the weekend, rather than be left at home while the owner goes out, like 'purely-pet' dogs.

>and maybe the public should take some blame in their delight and support for some of these undesirable features
>do members of the public take delight and support these undesirably features...

Oh most definitely. They love having their heart-strings tugged. Remember the reaction from so many people to the pictures of the dog with no front legs, or the double-muscled whippet? It was all "Aawww, poor thing, I'll give it a home" or "Aren't those people kind, keeping it alive".

and maybe the public should take some blame in their delight and support for some of these undesirable features. 
OK, I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but there is a genuine concern here too.  If the general public are being told by those in authority (ie breed clubs, kc) that these over exaggerated examples ARE the best examples of the breed, then why should they have any reason to doubt, until of course, they buy one and their beloved pet develops problems.  I'm not saying the general public are innocent victims - certainly many don't appear to do much research (although to be fair, where would they have gone before the interenet which is a relatively recent phenomenon?). 

because people wanting to buy a Ridgeback will NOT want one without a ridge.

That is completely untrue and what a sweeping statement!

I have a friend who wanted the 1 ridgless pup from the litter as soon as it was born because it was different, like some will go for dogs with the strangest markings or if a Lab comes out brindle it is still sold and sometimes more quickly as its different and stands out more with a bit of individuality to its breed.
Dont know where you got that from that no one will ever want a ridgeless pup??!!
And your exactrly the reason people cull their pups as you go around saying oh no one will ever want that one, more empathy is needed for pups which dont meet the exact criteria and then gotten rid of them by culling :(
its a sick, sad world when people are so blazay (spelling lol ) about a living breathing creature with a soul and Im sure the bitch appreciates you killing the pups she has carried for 9 weeks,nice one :(

>I have a friend who wanted the 1 ridgless pup from the litter as soon as it was born because it was different, like some will go for dogs with the strangest markings or if a Lab comes out brindle it is still sold and sometimes more quickly as its different

That just proves the point that the public want (and will actively choose) 'freaks' ...

>Im sure the bitch appreciates you killing the pups she has carried for 9 weeks,nice one

As bitches aren't that fussed when they lie on one of their pups and kill it (and only in the last week we had a post on here about a bitch who deliberately killed and ate all her newborn litter) I think it's clear that bitches don't feel the same about their pups as we do.

> That just proves the point that the public want (and will actively choose) 'freaks'

I wouldnt say that, more like the public see a nice dog with a good temperament and the fact it dosent have a line running down its back doesnt deter them, bravo on them is what I say as they just saved that pups life from being culled didnt they seeing as they chose it at birth.
Public arent as hooked on the cosmetic unless its an obvious fault like a cleft pallet etc then you could as you so delicatly put it lol a freak.

> I wouldnt say that, more like the public see a nice dog with a good temperament and the fact it dosent have a line running down its back doesnt deter them, bravo on them is what I say as they just saved that pups life from being culled didnt they seeing as they chose it at birth.
>

Should just buy a Vizsla then & save themselves a couple of hundred £'s!   As it is ridgeless puppies aren't sold for much less than ones with ridges whether they be perfect or not.

Its the same with brown & white Munsters.   Breeders used to cull them.   Then people sold them for a nominal fee but now because there's a market out there for them, some breeders are selling them for not much less than a 'standard' black & white whereas people could buy themselves a GLP with full KC registration etc.   

> If the general public are being told by those in authority (ie breed clubs, kc) that these over exaggerated examples ARE the best examples of the breed

Firstly they are not being told by the Breed Club or the KC.  If you actually read the standards or the anuual reports published by Breed Club health committees you will not see anything encouraging such exaggerations.  This is down the "old guard" of breeders unable to move on from the errors made by breeders and clubs, if you like, in Victorian Times.  There are many conditions that the public cannot be accused of being complicite in as they are not obvious to the uninitiated but that information is readily available from the web sites of most clubs and the KC. I agree the internet is a new tool but it is here now and many purchasers do use it to look for puppies.
I don't accept, however, that you have to be any kind of a dog specialist to realise that the exaggerations that include squashed nosed wheezing, bulging eyes and heavy wrinkles for example are going to add up to difficulties for the dogs even if, through lack of research, you don't quite appreciate the extent of it in terms of impact on required veterinary intervention or life expectancy.

>Very few breeders would cull ridgeless puppies - even though our code of ethics has suggested it.  However, they can be very difficult to home.  It's interesting, all these people up in arms about culling them, horror struck at the idea - yet they can be very difficult to place :-(  That said, I've only ever had one and she has a super home, she was booked at 2 days old.  She probably would have been booked before then, but I wasn't expecting to get ridgeless.  Maybe after the television programme, they'll suddenly become popular!

Don't you just know it. With the general public's capacity for lame ducks (not that this is a health issue, so a bit of a bad choice of phrase, but illustrates the point), I have no doubt there will now be an influx of people wanting a Ridgeback and ONLY a ridgeless one will do, so they can tell all their friends that they saved it from certain death at the hands of one of those cruel breeders on the TV. Far too specialist a breed to become fashionable.

M.

> I have no doubt there will now be an influx of people wanting a Ridgeback and ONLY a ridgeless one will do,

I suspect there will be many a puppy farmer seeking them out now to produce to meet that demand too.  They will get their ridgeless puppies but it may well be at the expensive of obtaining poorly bred specimens suffering from real health and temperament issues.  I think people should keep a sense of proportion as to where the real welfare issues lie.

If you actually read the standards or the anuual reports published by Breed Club health committees you will not see anything encouraging such exaggerations.

I was really referring to those cases highlighted in the programme - the GSD judge saying the older style GSD would not be seen in the show ring and the ones being shown were correct, and the Bassett Breed Club chairman saying that if he bred a dog that looked (to my untrained eye far more like a bassett than those being shown) he would never breed again!  These are people in authority.

I don't accept, however, that you have to be any kind of a dog specialist to realise that the exaggerations that include squashed nosed wheezing, bulging eyes and heavy wrinkles for example are going to add up to difficulties for the dogs even if, through lack of research, you don't quite appreciate the extent of it in terms of impact on required veterinary intervention or life expectancy.

No you don't, but clearly Isabel, you have far more faith in the GP than I ;-)  I think the bottom line is that the average pet owner doesn't think of anything except buying a nice dog for his?her kids to play with, take for walks / etc.  They go for one they like the look of and assume, in the same way when you buy anything else, that it will be fit for purpose.

To montymoo, just because ido not show does not mean i am a bad breeder. My girls start when they are 2 & finnishes when they are 5.And all my girls are clear and healthy.I do not make any profit. I go by health temperment and the breed standerd in that order. Why do you show people put down breeders who do not show, even if they do all the health tests for there breed. I think some of you show peolpe are being very unfair.I do not like showing i have been to a few and did not like the back biteing that goes on.I agree with everything that has been said about bbc1's programme pedigree dog's