> I have to say did have a giggle at the thought of someone like you or I (with dogs bigger than ourselves) trying to alpharoll them, FozzieBear would think that a wonderful game and soon have me pinned to the floor!

LOL, can you imagine!! :) If they did think it was rough-play then yep, pinned to the floor ourselfs and then I'm sure Buster would delight in pulling out my hairband!! But just imagine if they didn't think it was play

Last week there was an awful article in a national newspaper which showed recent victims of dog attacks - all youngsters - all died. All the victims where savagely attacked with faces ripped off. Most under 5 years old. I was horrified. If more people took better responsibility of their dogs and taught them rules, discipline and limitations and provided enough exercise - we would see less problem cases and better, more sociable dogs.

But if you look at the dog attacks there are clues as to why the dogs have done what they did, and no CM method would have helped. One dog was teased, kicked, kept out with the fireworks and trained to be aggressive towards people and not socialised.

Lastly, Caesar is not cruel, he often has to calm crazy dogs that no-one else can control and I've never seen him hurt a dog.

Do please have a look at this, it answers the fans and the question of hurting or not.
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Also of course he has partially asphyxiated a dog/dogs - this is against the law in the UK.

The videos that are shown online of his "cruel" methods never show the full story.

Most of them are from NatGeo. Also NatGeo have for some reason been removing the ones that show him using extreme methods... interesting this is happening inthe wake of the current backlash.

I now attend training classes with a trainer who also promotes a calm, healthy state of mind in dogs and since implementing these methods (in the same way as Cesar does) - my dogs are much happier, and no longer stressy dogs around the house - to the benefit of them and us.

What did you actually use of CMs methods to achieve this out of interest? I mean each day. Most good dog trainers could give you similar advice and do advocate exercise, training and being calm etc. This is not new advice :)

As a dog owner and lover, I would rather call in an expert like Cesar than have a mis-behaving dog that rules the roost.

CMs methods are more likely to end up causing problems than not. Dog trainers and behaviourists are currently very unhappy tha so many of their clients are upsetting their dogs with daft things like jabbing, rolling and "kicking" so that the dogs are confused. Some have bitten and several dogs that I just happen to have heard about being on dog training forums have been put to sleep due to owners following the methods advocated ie pinning, rolling etc.

Not good, perhaps you can understand why so many of us are very genuinely upset and concerned about his methods.

lindsay
x

>
> All the clips and 'snippets' of information people write about Cesar are usually 'extreme' cases and never show or detail the complete story. Cesar works to help dogs that most other people have given up on and sometimes where the owners are considering putting their dog down as a last resort.

I would be interested in seeing links to some of these extreme cases that he's supposedly helped-surely there must be lots of testimonials out there but I don't seem able to find any?? For example,Jonbee the Jindo(the dog that he alpha rolled-shown on the 1st link in Lindsay's reply) was rehomed after the show as he was becoming more aggressive and has just been advertised for rehoming again-so obviously Cesar's "rehabilitation" didn't work.
Behaviourists like Victoria Stilwell(and many others up and down the country) also deal very successfully with extreme cases but using positive methods-if you think these don't work with cases of severe aggression check out this video-this dog was going to be PTS.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI13v9JgJu0

Hi All,

I'll just put in my two pence worth...I can see that some of what Cesar Milan says can have some benefits.

1) To be calm around your dog - if I start to get upset or annoyed (with myself!) because a particular bit of training isn't working then I think taking a few deep breathes and keeping calm definately helps me to think through the next step (what's going wrong, what can i change, do i need to go back a step), and also stops Digger (my 6.5 stone labrador) sensing I'm getting frustrated - i'm a great believer that he can sense when I'm getting miffed and changes accordingly (the same with horses!!!!!)

2) That dogs need exercise and many behavioural issues stem from boredom and excess energy. A couple of months ago myself and my partner had a very nasty flu (poss the swine!!) and I just about managed to take Digger to our walk field and all I could manage was to stand there whilst he ran around me (not our normal interactive ramble at all) and lo and behold for the rest of the day he wouldn't settle and was generally very figidity (sp?).

3) I have seen Ceasar do some good work with nervous dogs who seem aggressive towards people (a low growl when people approach) with the use of calming signals (no eye contact, slow blinking, crouching down, no eye conytact etc) which is something that is being acknowledged and used by many dog behaviourists with excited/nervous dogs. I use them with Digs when he gets over excited (after a session with our dog trainer).

As for the other bits of training I have no experience of aggressive dogs so couldn't comment on how effective these methods are (thankfully the one thing Digger isn't is agressive - unless you count slober attack ;)). However I would say that Cesar, like Dog Borstal and all other dog training programmes states to use a dog trainer/behaviourist when using any of these methods. I think it's bad practice to take someone elses training methods and apply them to your dog absolutely, some element of common sense, personal preference and evaluation of your dog must be used first. I wouldn't take everything Cesar said and apply it blindly - just as I wouldn't blindly eat butter, bacon, eggs and steak on the Atkins diet and expect to be healthy!!

What I will say is that I have a very 'confident' dog, he's pretty blooming bomb proof! Therefore, in some circumstances, I'm very strict with him...he's not allowed on the furniture for example (because he would BE the sofa), and I do a lot of training around his food, bones, toys (as a 6.5 stone dog that starts to get defensive of food and toys is not fun!!). Some may say that this is me being dominant - but it's also me trying to create a dog that knows where he stands! He's not perfect, and some of the things he's not great at are my fault (recall from other dogs is a constant battle - ANY ADVICE ON THIS GREATLY RECEIVED!!!).

Just a few thoughts...As I said I'm no expert just trying to do what's best for my dog...Oooo also a good book for understanding your wooffer is "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier, just been bought it for xmas :D

Helena

Hi diggers mum,
just read your post about your lab boy....you mentioned his weight 6.5 stones... that's 41 kg is that normal for a lab...I've got a lab mixed up cross and he was 30 kg a right lardy fat thing, but now have got him down some- now to around 27 kg ? i still think he could lose some more, am i being mean getting him to be skinny & lean?

To Diggersmum - sorry not used yet to doing quotes - ANY good dog trainer will tell you the same things as CM (Oh and note... he doesn't call himself a trainer - erm... doesn't that ring a few alarm bells with anyone?).... calm, assertive etc and exercise. It is the other things he does which are not appropriate and sadly people ARE trying this at home with devastating results, it's like recommending putting a hammer into the hands of someone whose dog only really needs a nutcracker to sort it out.

Which is why there are campaigns in several countries to get his shows off TV. No matter how many 'don't do this at home' warnings people are copying him and the methods used already contravene animal welfare laws in countries where these TV shows are screened.

Go through the Kennel Club Good Citizen Scheme and you will be trained & taught all about what dogs need. If you are comitted enough to take your dog up to Silver or Gold, then you have been educated well enough on your responsibilities as a dog owner in this country, as well as having a well trained doglet.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a NEW dog trainer on our screens, native to the UK, who advocated and took us through the KC scheme step-by-step? There would be nothing on that show that we wouldn't be advised not to try at home.... Just like Victoria Stillwell's new series. If anyone wanted to copy her methods at home they'd have my sincere backing and maybe more people would begin to see the light. She has no warnings on her show! Copy her, and be welcome to a better way.

>that's 41 kg is that normal for a lab...

No, it isn't. A large lab (by which I mean over-tall and proportionately well-built) would be 35kg maximum. 30kg would be more normal for a standard sized labrador, and a lean working-type one could be as low as 25kg during the shooting season.

>i still think he could lose some more, am i being mean getting him to be skinny & lean?

No, you're saving his heart and joints from unnecessary wear and tear and will be lengthening his life.