So is your 'crate' like the airline one with solid sides and a mesh door - or is it a cage that is wire all round? The size and inclusion of bowls doesn't alter the definition.

Yes I'm confused here. I'd NEVER put any dog in the American crates as the poor dog then can't even see out of it from more than one side. A CAGE is at least airy and see through!

Thought i was being pretty clear!
Mine is Crate wire based, all airy and she can see everything around her and its about 3 times too big for her!
and yes bowels of food and water make a massive difference to the quality, who would shut their dog up without water and food avaliable?????????? and ot being able to see out side, its just cruel!

Mitz can see evrything, eat, sleep and drink when she wants play with her toys she has in there and doesnt need toilet trips during the day as she old enough now to only need a couple of trips a day, sometimes not even that!
you wouldnt have that in an 'american' crate.

If yours is wire on all sides then technically it's a 'cage'; a 'crate' has solid sides and only a wire door, like a cat's travelling box.

As it states when they are brought in shops and in books that describe them they are called a crate, but call it a cage of you want!
its open on all sides so call it what you will! :)

I think in the US the airline type crates are used as much or more than the wire ones because people do actually use them to fly their dogs.

I have a dismantled varikennel on top of the wardrobe which has been used once only when I flew with Lexi to Finland.

When I have a litter I use a crate to extend whelping quarters and also may use one for a Little while with the pups that stay past  weeks or one I keep.  This will only be closed at night or if taking them to the Vet.

I personally only ever use a "cage"  for puppies. Then the pup will be contained within a puppy play pen with a cage inside it all in all about 6ft by 6ft square. This is used for the first six months to keep pup safe when we go out ( Never longer than three hours ) Or overnight to sleep in. The reason we do it is to keep puppy safe when we are not around to supervise. Overnight so puppy does not pester the older dogs. (Even Mum gets fed up with a puppy who pesters! :rolleyes:!!) and on odd occasions when I have to work a shift and my good friend and neighbor is not available to dog sit, other than that for an hour while I walk big dogs. They come to regard it as sleep time out and have bed, water and chewies to play with. It is set up in the same place as the whelping box so they are in familiar surroundings in the dining room (why do I call it that? it's a glorified puppy room if we have pups about??? )
I think the idea ( be it England America or anywhere else!!)of caging a dog for a whole day is abhorrent, unnecessary and downright cruel. eight to ten hours in a confined space is not on. Why have a dog in the first place if you are going to go out and leave it all day? Non of my puppies go to homes if everyone is out all day every day. We all need to leave dogs at times but a 8-10, 5 days a week lock up is not in the dogs best interests. I work my hours to suit my dogs and only very occasionally need to be out all day when I make alternative arrangements for them to be visited or accompanied by someone. We do not treat our girls as humans they live like dogs should do, but we do give them consideration and make sure they have a life worth living for! Oh! and yes we have a two week holiday most years and a few weekends away as well but I don't feel guilty...they have a great life and are very happy with thier Auntie Rosie living in for a while without harm!!

I am a member of breed forum, with most members from the US and Canada, I must say I have to stop myself going there as much these days, I get SO annoyed and upset with the majority of the posts that it isnt worth going there anymore. You just CANNOT tell them that crating a dog all day long is cruel, it just appears to be the norm and one recent example is a 8 week old pup being crated for TEN HOURS...TEN!!! Aside from the crating I see many different attitudes when it comes to raising a puppy that I find so very sad (maybe this isnt restricted to the US but I wouldn't imagine advice like this on a uk forum!) The words 'alpha' and 'dominance'  pop up all the time when it comes nipping puppies or untrained 'teenagers'...'you must show him you are alpha'...'he needs to know you are the BOSS...grab his mouth and shout NO BITE until he stops struggling' and we are often talking about 8/9/10 week old puppies! I find it so very sad that this is what many people genuinely believe. I try to give sensible advice but I am a lone voice against the masses! What can ya do, eh?

It is sad how they treat theyre animals, as i said earlier not a animal friendly place the USA.
How can you try and dominate a 10 week old puppy, its going to be fearful of you and nothing else, and crating a pup for 10 hours is cruelty and nearly neglect in mine eyes!

If Mitz wasnt happy crated we would find another way but she is and again as i just posted you can see shes got a good life!

All 3 types of crate are readily available and affordable in the States.I agree that they can be abused and people use them instead of training but I do feel that at times there can be a very anti American feeling on here.I help run a breed board and we have members from all over the world so the differences in attitudes often come up.We do get people asking about crate training new pups and if they can be crated for 8+ hours a day and the American members are just as vocal in their disaproval.The other extreme would be alot of Australians wouldn't even entertain the idea and think putting any dog in any kind of crate cruel.
If we are going to be making sweeping generalisations I would say the majority of shocking questions about keeping dogs outside 24/7(this breed is not suited to be outside in cold or heat) and  wanting to breed from pet bitches/dogs came from NI.I would be forgiven for getting the impression that they didn't treat their dogs as well as we do but don't get that impression from most of our US members.

We not making sweeping generalisations just saying and talking about what we know.
The post Shannon put on here would seem to instantly clash with yours so no one can say whether they are right or not about another country as we dont live there.
But USA has far more usage of the whole dominance theory which is just as damaging to puppies so you could say they are worse or you could go round in circles all day trying to determine who is better then the other!
And also they do have more usage of the 3 panal sided cages as opposed to our wired design and that is true of many americans so its not an 'anti american' feel as you delicatly put it just us looking at the points of americans caging their dogs.

And also they do have more usage of the 3 panal sided cages as opposed to our wired design and that is true of many americans

I put up a quick poll on the breed forum and 95% of the Americans that replied have said they use/d a wire crate not a solid one  :)

Like I said in my post I don't know if it just restricted to the US but that is what I see on the forum I have been a member of for a while, maybe it is just a unrepresntative amount that tend to post on that forum, but attitudes do seem very different (from what I gather). I often want to direct people on to this forum for more sensible advice.

You should,I do :)  I don't live in America no but have spent alot of time there over the last 10 years and have many American friends.Some use a crate (mostly the wire kind) and some don't but I wouldn't say any I personaly know abuse it or use them more than is neccesary.The wire crates are very inexpensive(compared to here) and available in most sizes in Petsmart/petco and the like (most towns have one).
People of any nationality agreeing that crating an 8 week old puppy for hours on end was acceptable wouldn't be a member of our forum for  very long.

There are many regular members of this forum who like to toss out phrases such as 'in the US' or 'in the UK', while not having been to both countries (and no, Disney World doesn't count as having visited the entire United States) and make very sweeping generalizations.  Being a member of a US or UK based forum does not make one an expert on that country's dog care habits.

I am American and have been to the UK several times.  I have also been to Paris, France.  I can say, having seen it with my own eyes, that yes, these countries seem to be more 'dog friendly' than the average area of the US.  I find it fantastic.  However, I'm also a realist.  In the areas of the UK that I have visited there are many more desirable locations to let a dog off lead with no worry.  There are open fields, foot paths, etc.  In my area of the States, w/out driving for 3 hours, there is one semi-desirable area that I do visit during specific times of the day to let my dog explore freely.

It is on this forum that I have read of the horrible way Americans keep their dogs on lead and have read, on the same token, how horrible it is when your dogs or you are 'attacked' by a dog let allowed off lead by its irresponsible owner.  Typically, no one has a happy medium to offer.  Would I be expected, because I live in a congested city, to let my dog wander down the sidewalk only so I could say he can walk off lead?  Or would I be considered an irresponsible dog owner because I placed him in harm's way?  You can't have it both ways.

It is on this forum that I have read that persons who work a full-time job should not be allowed pets.  I work a full-time job.  I have adjusted my schedule so that, when I was divorced, I began to work at night when my dog would normally be asleep.  I also either come home 4 hours into my shift or make arrangements for my dog to be let out.  I shouldn't have a dog then?  Why?  Because its not a situation you would have for your dog?  That makes it a personal opinion, not fact.

It is on this forum that I have read Americans use crates irresponsibly, bordering on cruelly.  Who are you to be the spokesman for the Americans?  I am American and don't profess to be a spokesman for all of America.  If we do use crates, and you don't agree with them, our reasons for crating then become excuses.  Yet, its acceptable to some of you to use them for showing and/or travelling.  Or for an hour.  Or for three.  Or for feeding.  Or when a dog is sick.  These are not excuses, these are reasons.  Because you're not American?  Or because you change your opinion to suit whom you're replying to?

I have a dog that is destructive.  When I am not home.  How would you have me correct his behavior if it occurs when I'm not available to supervise?  Should I have not taken this adult dog into my home because of his poor behavioral training?  Should I let him wander the house, destroying at will because crates are cruel?  It is just an excuse, afterall, or would I be seen as irresponsible for putting his life in harm's way?

I have a dog that is blind.  When I'm not home and she can't hear me, feel me, smell me, she gets very anxious.  The only place she feels comfortable and safe during these times is in her crate.  Should I let her wander the house at night bumping into walls and furniture because she's pacing and anxious?  Her being mentally sound in her crate is just an excuse.

I have ripped up a houseful of carpetting to accomodate an incontinent dog while his medications were sorted.  Was this irresponsible?  I have made more accomodations that I will list in this post for my dogs, past and present.  Does this make me irresponsible?  Because I work a full-time job, which btw, takes me a 5 minute drive to get to and from, I choose to have no social life in order that my dogs are not home alone more than absolutely necessary.  Does this make me irresponsible?  Or perhaps it makes me un-American?

It's unfortunate to come to a forum where some people do seem to have a bit of common sense about them and read 'in America', 'the Americans', etc. and then go on to read that your experience of Americans are through a computer screen.  Then to say 'I'm not making generalizations'.  I would invite any member here to visit our forum and read what the 'Americans' say in response to crate training questions.  In response to dominance theories. 

When you know me, you can profess to speak for me.  Not before then.

I don't think anyone here speaks for you, but the issue is with caging for long hours. Whether you be British English or whatever, caging for 8/10 hours a day is not on. You it seems would be thoughtful for your dogs but many are not and the caging issue happens in the UK too. I for one am sorry if we seem to accuse you of being cruel, some people tar everyone with the same brush. There are many people in the UK who cage dogs for the whole day. They also need to look at how they deal with thier dog issues.

Is it untrue that many Americans consider it not only acceptable but also to be recommended that dogs and puppies should be confined to an area no bigger than their body for many hours on end? Are all the sites that can found with a couple of minutes googling that advocate this practice lying? Three or four hours confinement at a time is a maximum for a house-trained adult dog. A puppy naturally can't last as long as that. A pen is also generally much better than a crate, because it allows more movement.

>It is on this forum that I have read that persons who work a full-time job should not be allowed pets.

I've never read that. I've read that they might not be suitable at that time to be dog owners. They might not be suitable as horse owners, although they might want one. There are, however, other pets that would thrive with the living conditions they as owners can offer. You personally seem to have made satisfactory arrangements for your dogs' well-being in your absence. Many, however, do not - on both sides of the Pond, but there are fewer indications that it's considered acceptable on UK sites than on US ones.

>Would I be expected, because I live in a congested city, to let my dog wander down the sidewalk

Of course not. Dogs should never be allowed offlead by a public road. It's too dangerous.

If people can't provide any species with a suitable living environment, whether it's a parrot, a goldfish, a rabbit, a pony or a dog, then they must wait until they can. Theirs is the decision whether or not to cause suffering. Dog ownership is a privilege, not a right.

Gibson i lived in the US for the first 15 years of my life.granted 20 + years ago and my memories are slightly fuzzy.I also belong to many American forums where everything,everyone here is saying seems to be the norm. One dog forum has over 22,000 members,and of those there may be one or two that i have seen who are anti-crate,the rest see it as normal dog ownership.

I dont think anyone here would advocate walking a dog off lead near the road,but some dogs in the US never,ever get off lead runs,it seems to be very un pc to allow ones dog off lead,and not to mention there's no-where safe to take them,which i find very hard to get my head around living with the all the space that we have here.

As for the wire/travelling crates.Many have posted pics of their dogs in their cages to show how "happy" they are :rolleyes: and most have the wire all the way round cages,however this is often covered all the way round with a blanket to make the cage "more den like and cosy" so the dog only has the front to look out of.

There are many regular members of this forum who like to toss out phrases such as 'in the US' or 'in the UK', while not having been to both countries (and no, Disney World doesn't count as having visited the entire United States) and make very sweeping generalizations.  Being a member of a US or UK based forum does not make one an expert on that country's dog care habits.

I believe that to be a lot of tripe :-D

I am a Canadian living in the UK and have never noticed any such thing on the forum.

I have a dog that is destructive.  When I am not home.  How would you have me correct his behavior if it occurs when I'm not available to supervise?  Should I have not taken this adult dog into my home because of his poor behavioral training?  Should I let him wander the house, destroying at will because crates are cruel?  It is just an excuse, afterall, or would I be seen as irresponsible for putting his life in harm's way?

Unfortunately you have just proved some of the points that have been made.........You've made several comments here that are just what has been mentioned. It's for the dog's own good, it's for his saftey etc.....  What IS it in American houses that are so dangerous it could harm a dog? You clearly have a dog with separation anxiety -that needs working on for your dog to be able to be happy. The dog will never learn by being confined when you aren't at home -it will just be prevented from being destructive. Not learn to be happy and secure to be left alone for a while. Also you do not CORRECT such a behaviour, this is a dog that has problems that needs to be solved in a kind way by giving the dog more confidence, not punishing it. And yes, I'm afraid it probably wasn't a very good idea to take in a dog with separation anxiety if you cannot be at home and work with him until the issue is resolved.

Not crating also doesn't automatically mean letting a dog have the run of the entire house. You pick one room, remove anything that could be chewed, and put up a tall gate or even better stable door. Then you have one safe area MUCH larger than a crate.

As this was a post on crates, I posted re crates and the 'Americans are idiots' sentiment that seems to run rampant on this forum.

Unfortunately, you know not of what you speak and I'll not hijack the thread any further.  And no need to be afraid...he was brought into my home 3 years ago and was worked with.  His days of destruction are over.

W/out getting into a discussion on dog training and/or behavior, no, I've not 'proved' any of the points that have been made.  Those that are anti-crate seem to think anything other than the hypocritical reasoning they use is an 'excuse'.  My point is just that.  No one will ever 'win' an argument on this board or be able to have a reasonable discussion with that attitude.  The closed-mindedness of some members of this forum is remarkable.

>the 'Americans are idiots' sentiment that seems to run rampant on this forum.

More accurately, surprise at the treatment of animals in a fellow 'civilised' nation.

I have a dog that is destructive.  When I am not home.  this, in present term, changed rather quickly to this:His days of destruction are over. didn't it?

I have many close American friends and don't think they are all idiots but there is very much a different attitude to animals. Just what vets are prepared to do shows the cultural difference I think -vets here don't crop ears, neuter puppies at 8 weeks of age, de-bark dogs and de-claw cats.

As I started this post I might like to point out that I quoted the persons post as she wrote it setting out the daily routine for her dogs and that the very accommodating rescue foster was willing to go along with.  there was no mention of taking the dogs for a walk before or after work which in my experience is considered the norm for an owner who decides to own dogs and work.

These are not puppies or new rescues with destructive habits, so I fail to understand the need for such cruel confinement, and what about their poor bladders?

Not one person on the forum questioned this way of keeping the dogs and I have seen many posts that confirm that is how a great many dogs are kept.

Off list I questioned a number of breeders that I am friendly with and they confirm that such dog keeping is common practise, as well as keeping dogs on unfenced property, sot eh dogs either have to be chained, or be kept on porches or let out into dog runs. 

Many owners just think the dog will learn to keep within it's own yard or have invisible fences so the dogs are prey to wandering dogs or children, but these kind of people are not those who would be able to get a pup from my correspondents and are often the situations dogs turn up in rescue from.

I did raise the question with American friends before asking the question here.

Also many US dog keeping pamphlets and care manuals talk about crating dogs while owners are absent or at work, including one I had with a crate I brought here that was imported..

There are many regular members of this forum who like to toss out phrases such as 'in the US' or 'in the UK', while not having been to both countries (and no, Disney World doesn't count as having visited the entire United States) and make very sweeping generalizations.  Being a member of a US or UK based forum does not make one an expert on that country's dog care habits.
Absolutely! Well said!

I've been to 10 American cities, and 6 states and they are all very different. Even down one street you couldn't mke sweeping generalizations about the people who live there.

Forums tend to attract people of the same mind set so are rather biased.

I post on an almost all US forum and the Americans are a delightful,and friendly bunch. The use of shock collars, punishment training, and 'alpha rolling' and crates all day long is strongly discouraged by most members and conversations remain constructive and non judgemental as members help to work out possible workable alternative options in how to house and excerside the dogs for such long hours.  It is a careful ballance and determinationed concentration from all members to keep diverse forums friendly and respectful. .

Interestingly the Americans on the forums I know mostly all use possitive training and attend training classes that teach using possitive metods but I find clubs in the UK use punishment and force so on that side I actually prefer America for dogs. The UK seems very behind. There are lots of improvement in aniamal care that the UK could make so don't be offended because each country has extreemes of  good and bad.

I post on an almost all US forum and the Americans are a delightful,and friendly bunch. The use of shock collars, punishment training, and crates all day long is discouraged by most members and conversations remain constructive and non judgemental as members help to work out possible workable alternative options in how to house and excerside the dogs for such long hours.

That pretty much sums up my experience with a mixed nationality breed board too(about 60% from USA).I think it realy depends on the attitudes and motivation of the admin as to the quality of the content and members  ;)

actually the board I go on needs very little moderation because people value each other. When members value other members they tend to play nice.

Also admin says: ' be nice and get along and stay trouble free or I will shut you down!' That helps a bit too. :D ;)

>The words 'alpha' and 'dominance'  pop up all the time when it comes nipping puppies or untrained 'teenagers'...'you must show him you are alpha'...'he needs to know you are the BOSS...grab his mouth and shout NO BITE until he stops struggling' and we are often talking about 8/9/10 week old puppies!

Practically word for word the same as I regularly see on a US breed forum.  I despair at the amount of times 'alpha rolling' puppies is recommended to 'cure' normal puppy behaviours like nipping :(  I'm afraid 'pack' theories are very much alive and well across much of North America and I get treated like a freak when I try to point out the dangers inherent in such methods!

a crate is a cage? People use the term crate because they think somehow it's nicer
actually the correct nicer term is :Indoor Kennel. :D  ;)

Or how about the Hardwood Hideaway! You don't even need to know you have a dog! ;)

<a class='url' href='http://www.dogbedworks.com/showproduct.cfm?Product_ID=470&ParentCat=47'>http://www.dogbedworks.com/showproduct.cfm?Product_ID=470&ParentCat=47</a>

I wouldn't feel that crating a dog for 6/7 hours a day was acceptable at all. :(  But are we supposed to say "Well if it suits you and your dog?" to be PC these days?

Far too long for a crate or cage in my book too.  If a dog must be left for a period of time like that I think they should have at least the freedom of a room or a kennel with run.

Or a dog walker to break up the day for them and give some human interaction.

How long is acceptable? Piper is now 8 mths and goes in a crate/cage when I go out(2-3hrs max) as if I dont she will chew. Skye has her bed next to the crate and she is rather lazy and is nomally still in the same position when i get back in as when i left her. I am home most of the time and they have run of the house downstairs and garden and go for two walks a day. IMO they are both happy dogs who dont want for anything.

>How long is acceptable?

I dont really know as in all these years i have never had the need to use a crate. I would say no more than what you stated,2 hours,3 max!

What you do describe Abbeymum is about what I would do with my growing pups. :)  I make sure that they have some exercise/play time just before I leave to ensure that the time I leave them is 'sleep time'! :)  And as you say, it's occasional (all dogs need to be taught to be left if we go to the doctor, dentist etc ;) ) not part of a daily work routine.

To be honest I think its absolutly fine for how long she is crated and im not getting into a debate about it! Her crate is massive(the size for a Newfoundland for a SBT) and she has plenty of room, toys, water food and bedding to keep her entertained, shes happy and so are we! and Considering I dont work weekends and she has to hour long walks sometimes even longer a day shows she is more then happy and tuckered out before she goes in, who can say honestly, they walk theyre dogs for 2 to 3 hours everyday? And for the record shes only crated during the day and that can only amount to 3 days a week sometimes! :)

Do you not cage her at bedtime then? Just curious really :) If people feel they have to cage their dogs when they're out, surely they also do it when they're sleeping? In which case your dog is actually caged for around 15 hours a day.

hmmm I've just read some of your old posts Rach, just last month you were saying she doesn't get a morning walk at all - and would 15-30 mins be ok if you have to walk her Then you say you've got a playpen to go round her cage to give her more freedom - but there is no mention of that now. There seems to be quite a lot of conflicting stories, think I'll bow out now and go and walk my lot.

Im now able to walk her an hour every morning thankfully! :) :)
Shift changes at work came through!

I did try a playpen youre right but she hated it, was just a trial run borrowed from a friend, she didnt like it one bit no matter how much training we did with her!
She just loves her crate!

Im flattered you feel you have to check my previous posts as well, i must be very intresting! lol!

No she isnt crated at all at night, she sleeps in her bed at the foot at ours!
Always tries to jump on the cheeky girl! :)

Shes only ever destructive when left alone, running free in the house or confined to the kitchen, even if its just one hour or 7!
During the night shes an angel! :)

Seems like your dog also has separation anxiety problems as she only chews when left alone regardless of the time -classic signs. :(

MarianneB  My Dog certainly does not have seperation anxiety what so ever
She is fine when crated for the day, no noise or anything and she doesnt rip her fleece up or anything as she is happy where she is, in her crate.
The reason shes destructive is because she is left to her own vices and shes a SBT if you know anything about the breed you will know they are natural chewers and all stafford owners pretty much crate their dogs! And even when she was in the kitchen she never made a peep, so no she doesnt have seperation anxiety with the 'classic signs'

So how would you explain she does not chew when you are there, even if you are asleep, but will do it even if left for just one hour?

Because she is a SBT and will chew anything and everything!!! Doesnt mean she has SA at all.
Do you not know the SBT breed at all?

She is fine when crated, non destructive and calm and not noisy at all, so she doesnt have it Or else she would do it when crated while im out for a few hours as well where she doesnt, Would make no difference if crated or not she would still have the anxiety and she doesnt.
So No she doesnt have SA.

Because she is a SBT and will chew anything and everything!!! Doesnt mean she has SA at all.
Do you not know the SBT breed at all?

My friends with 2 Staffies don't have this problem. But they've spent time training their dogs. :) There is no such thing as a breed that always chews everything. If that was the case people in countries where cages aren't used would not be able to keep them, would they?

They would have to accept that the dog is a chewer and live with it. Simple.
We took Mitz to obedience classes and she came top of the class and we train her everyday so I ahve spent plenty of time and money training Mitz I simply live with the fact that she is a chewer as i can accept it.

Well the Breed Club does not appear to have any info about keeping the dogs on their website, but interestingly enough The SBT breed council say on their website that the breed is not suited to be left alone for long, and that cages must not be used for long periods of time. They mention chewing in teething pups but NOTHING of all Staffies chewing as adults.

Through training they can be left alone and Staffies are chewers, its a fact!
Go on to JS site and see what all the SBT owners have posted, then you can have a say about looking after a SBT. Same as I would never tell someone how to look after a Dalmation as I dont have one you have no right telling me how to look after my SBT, think thats fair enough isnt it?

Dogs are dogs, and just like it's nonsense that all breeds need a food specifically for their breed, it's nonsense to say an entire breed cannot be trained NOT to chew. Who's JS? I may not have owned a Staffie myself, but I have had plenty of experience working with dogs both as a vet nurse, in kennels and as a groomer -since before you were born. :) I first got to know a Staffie at a training club in 1981.

Rach.. I have had a say about SBT....and I own two... and disagree with your statement completely