What about accidental litters - my collie was from a shepherd whose 3 bitches came into season at virtually the same time.  They all produced litters - He didn't sound as if he went out of his way to breed his dogs - it just happened!!!  Of course he was cashing in on his dogs and keeping anything he thought would be useful (although he would have parted with his choice if we had offered enough I am sure) He would have been very offended if called a puppy farmer but I think that this is a sideline for a lot of shepherds/ farmers.  Who is going to police it and make sure he has a breeding license?   I have bought pedigree and this last one from the farm - nobody asked me if I was a responsible owner or checked if I was looking after the dog I had bought afterwards.  

A hobby breeder is one who breeds not for profit (to cover some costs of their hobby), and under current legislation is someone who breeds less than five litters in any 12 months. 

Anyone who breeds as a business has to be licensed by the local authority, so all these puppy farmers with horrendous conditions are either run without a license or they have one but no checks are made on conditions, so what is the point.

For example if I or most hobby breeders needed to be licensed we would have to have facilities such as separate kitchen facilities for dogs and humans, isolation kennels etc.  Most hobby breeders choose to have their pups in their bedrooms and in their homes, this would not be allowed if you were a commercial breeder.

If we we all subject to the same rules only the commercial breeder would be in a position to bred, hardly what we really want.

I agree if that kind of licensing applied then it would be counter productive.  I really had in mind a fee more like TV licensing which would apply to anyone breeding puppies to put off those in it for the money. I am by no means sure that this would work either but am just thinking about all those puppies produced destined for the rescue centres.

And what would the penalty be for those who don't bother getting a license? Do their dogs get seized ("Not my dog, guv" and they go and get another)? After all, if everyone was law-abiding there'd be no pitbulls in the country, because the trade in them was made illegal 15 years ago - and there are probably more now than there were then.

To be truthful, I think those who pay for a licence will just see it as a means to justify breeding even more to recoup their costs!

I have bred 3 litters and owned the breed I have since the end of 1987, if I were to sit down and add up the day to day costs of my dogs, the show entries, vets bills, fuel, wear & tear on the house etc.   I would be deeply into the red compared to what income those 3 litters have bought me and then add a licence on top of that!     You'll just force people like me to stop breeding altogether and give the large scale puppy producers more reason to carry on.

I own a dog in partnership so we keep tabs on his costs which we share. 

He is now 5 1/2 and has cost the partnership over £10,000 to buy, put through quaratine, keep and show (without adding petrol costs).  £3000 was the cost of purchase import etc until he came out of Quaratine.

So he has cost £7000 in five years.  He has sired 8 litters in the UK and one abroad, but only earned £2500 in stud fees.

We only have 18 sets of CC's so woudl not shwo at all the shows compared to a dog in a breed that has more tickets and might be taken to them all.

I hate to think how much one of the top winning and campaigned dogs costs it's owners.

I expect you are right and I don't personally want you to stop breeding Christine!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to breed Ruth but I may let the dogs from time to time!!!!  ;)

and yes the amount of strays seen then was far more than you ever see now.  I haven't seen a dog out on it's own in ages come to think of it.

But in those days we didn't have dog wardens :)

Well, where I live we've had dog wardens for years just not as many as there is now but then they do more than just pick up stray dogs here, they go into schools to educate children too and are a bit more PC with a higher public profile.

the neighbouring Councils Dog Wardens are like that, adn I see they ahve put poo bins on any bit of counciul green outside flats etc.

Bristol City council answwer the phone with 'Pest Control' as that is where their Dog Warden can be foudn and shows the councils attittude.

The cost to get dogs back is quite hefty (was £50 a day a few years back) so they so a good job ensuring there ae no regular Latchkey dogs anymore.  Once someone has had to shell out £50 or £100 they find it cheaper to go to Jollyes and buy a roll of weldmesh.

>Bristol City council answwer the phone with 'Pest Control' as that is where their Dog Warden can be foudn and shows the councils attittude.

Likewise Stratford. And of course they only work office hours. But if they actually do take a dog it goes to kennels in Birmingham, making it very difficult for people to reclaim it.

Lets face it - stray dogs (latch key type - not one-off escapees) are a pest!

Exactly so being picked up becomes expensive so owner buck up their ideas, or more likely don't bother to get the dog back and hopefully it will go to a more responsbile home.

When you phone up they don't always tell you where they've been taken, and when it's in another county it's not easy finding contact details to reclaim your dog. In some cases it's not far off confiscation. Scenario: your dog goes missing on a Friday night, so no contact with the dog warden till Monday. You live in Bristol - would you think to check all the kennels in Gloucester or Swindon (roughly the same distance as Brum is from us)?

Well that surely must be against the law?

Apparently not.

I have seen several posts on a forum that help trace missing dogs where the dog has been taken to a pound not in an area that would be one's first thought to enquire in- and the dogs have been rehomed due to being there the statutory 7 days. One owner, despite having located his dog eventually, was not allowed to be reunited with it as it had been rehomed legally :(

A justification for microchipping or tattooing all dogs as puppies?

only any good if the details are updated.  I rather think one of the last things many people are likely to remember when they move house.

According to the Kennel Club I own over 20 dogs, as so many puppy owners never bother to transfer the ownership, same goes for the tattoo registry which I don't mind as I would like to be first contact if one of my pups gets picked up).

But there would be somewhere to start - an old address maybe but an address at least and if you were concerned about losing your dog wouldn't you make sure you updated- no good for any of the dog control mentioned, but good for those who aren't sure what kennels a lost dog may end up in? As you say - if it stays in breeders name then a responsible breeder would want to know if one of their dogs had been picked up.

It is already the law that dogs wear tags on their collars, so they should be easily reunited with their owners in the majority of cases.

This is the problem, no point making more rules and laws when the current ones are not enforced.

Unfortunately sometimes dogs do their escaping acts by slipping out doors when they have no collars on :-) , I've had a couple of collars break too so tags would be no good then if the dogs had run off. My dogs wear their collars (with tags) all the time and are microchipped too. I don't honestly think that there is anything that can be done .
I suppose education is the only way forward - after all I can remember a time (before Jimmy (Klunk Klick) Saville) when not wearing a seatbelt and having a couple of drinks then driving were deemed OK ( and no I'm not that old honest ;-) ).  Maybe a time will come when irresponsible dog ownership will also be socially unacceptable (maybe sometime after irresponsible parenting!! :D :D)

Yep same here, tagged, tattooed and microchipped.

Our previous dog (a dalmatian) disappeared on a walk when he was about 9-10 years old, we had no idea what had happened as he simply did not return when he was called -  this had never happened before or after the incident.
After frantic phoning vets, police and dog warden we finally got a call back from the dog warden that he had been picked up wandering in the middle of the road a few miles from where we lost him, (not coming home by himself, we lost him quite close to home). He had still got his collar on but the tag was missing - there was no sign of any injuries, and apart from the lost tag he seemed absolutely fine - how did the tag come off, and how did he get so far from home?
We think someone took him to sell on, so removed his tag, but when they realised he was an old boy they no longer wanted him so just dumped him out their car - seems a possible explanation.

As well as being chipped our dog always has 2 tags on him with identical information. In the 2 years we have had him he has lost 3 tags so now double up on them in the hope that he won't lose both at once

>puppy training class attendance etc for the licence to be renewed

Don't agree with that.  I am a first time dog owner and to be honest if I knew then (when I first got my pup) what I know now I would never have taken her to the puppy classes that I did take her to initially.  Much better to train the owner first (yes, I hold my hands up and admit I was clueless :rolleyes: )  Of course enforcing people to take their pups to puppy classes against their free will will not necessarily make the owner an effective trainer because they have to want to do it to practice outside classes.  On top of that you would have all and sundry setting up puppy classes just to make money.  How would new owners know whether the classes were any good or not?

*This had not landed where I intended it to :rolleyes:

Oh - good post Cheryl :) :) Definitely agree with you on that :) I went to view local dog training classes when we first got Bramble - fortunately I was put off when the trainer told another prospective trainee to whack her dog with a newspaper :( As Bramble was a nervous rescue, I didn't go back :( :( Fortunately was referred to excellent classes by a fellow dog walker and never looked back. BUT it would have been too easy to go to bad classes :( :(

Daisy

I agree, it was pure fluke I asked a general question on how to find a puppy at work, and one colleague said phone the KC for a puppy pack, then it was pure fluke I ended up with reputable breeders, then fluke again I ended up with reasonably good training classes. Not sure what the solution is though!